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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before

 
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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/5/2018 8:25:59 AM   
gliz2

 

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That big bulge look serious Larry. Any chance of sacrificing some divisions to make a run for it? Or is it not realy possible to effectively disengage?

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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/5/2018 8:47:55 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gliz2
That big bulge look serious Larry. Any chance of sacrificing some divisions to make a run for it? Or is it not realy possible to effectively disengage?

Disengaging from Soviet units is problomatic and I'm afraid that pulling all those troops back WOULD cause a lot of losses. But it's necessary and I've already started it pulling back slowly trying to maintain a front line at the same time. So far so good.

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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/5/2018 8:59:36 AM   
devoncop


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Soviet Turn 61....

Larry posted the map before I could do my little update as he is too efficient (I thought he would be asleep when I posted my turn...should have known better😂)

The last turn of the Soviet offensive saw the advance in northern Estonia come to an abrupt halt as not one but two Panzer Divns made an unwelcome appearance...the 15th and the 24th I think...so progress had to be made elsewhere.

Another Coastal Fort was overrun in southern Finland on the approach to Helsinki and in the South after heavy fighting Melitopol was finally captured and importantly the bridge was taken intact.Units then pushed into the Hungarian security units and these were also hit hard.

The overall strategic situation is fascinating....although the shock reduction will prevent too many effective attacks now, running up to the ceasefire around turn 89 I am hoping to knock Finland out of the war which will free up considerable Soviet forces. The ideal scenario if somewhat ambitious would be a grand envelopment of German lines from the far North and far So I given the big salients in the German lines in the Centre but Larry looks to be considering a pullback so we will see......





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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/5/2018 3:06:08 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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I've been fortunate in that the Soviet invasion seems to be contained and all those plans to fall back may not have to be done. I may be able to hold on with what I've got or maybe push the Soviets back across the lake and reclaim Narva. I think I'll hold off on the pulling back and see what develops here a little bit.




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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/6/2018 9:17:41 AM   
devoncop


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Soviet Turn 62

The Soviet shock levels now being back to 100 and therefore less than the Germans, Larry hits the Soviet lines hard in the Bulge area west of Lake Peipus. The Soviet lines hold thanks to reserve armour but damage was done as several Panzer Divisions were employed in the assault.
The Soviet turn is spent trying to repair the damage in this area.

In Finland a different story with Soviet advance elements approaching Helsinki from both the north and east and only 60Km from the capital and with almost all Finnish forces now pocketed in other parts of the country.

North of Leningrad an SS Police Regiment is destroyed as the Soviet lines start to push north through the Finnish and German defences but there is no attempt to launch full assaults as it is hoped the fall of Helsinki will persuade the Finns to lay down their arms.

In the south the final German regiment on the lower Dnepr adjacent to Melitopol is destroyed but an attempt to force the river line just to the north is repelled by German artillery supporting the front line.

In the air the Germans resume their interdiction efforts but these are combatted by the Soviet fighters and by turn end almost 600 Axis planes have been downed for the loss of about 170 Soviets.

Larry asked about Soviet losses to date in his in game message......

To give an idea:

In Heavy Rifle Squads...... Lost = 3631............On Hand = 19953

In Early T34 Tanks......... Lost = 751............On hand = 2136

In IL-4's.................. Lost = 334............On hand = 899 (these bombers have particularly suffered from German fighters)

Overall it seems these are not too bad for the Soviets though artillery losses are also pretty high.




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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/6/2018 3:13:00 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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I haven't been attacking until last turn so my Army is almost at peak strength and the number of HRS's is over 41K. That's a good thing. Ian's defense is so strong that my attacks aren't making a dent and I'm just losing people and beating my head against the wall. I need to find a weak spot and there aren't many. Also, several of my divisions are below half of their original strength and need to be railed to Berlin to refit. If not Berlin then maybe someplace along the coast, like Konigsburg. With an HQ unit to accellerate the refit rate. This image is the first from a new set of moves from Ian and I haven't started moving units yet. The front lines haven't moved since last turn and actually are fairly stable. I seem to have contained the Soviet push. But there are so many weak spots in the lines that Ian could break a lot of holes that I'll need to plug.




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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/6/2018 3:24:36 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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A considerable number of my aircraft, mostly fighters, are in reorg and I'm guessing that that is a clue as to how hot the air war is now. The air losses meter shows zeros because I just now opened the moves and not a lot has happened yet. Ian hasn't been doing a lot of bombing of bridges so I don't have to strip off some engineers, regular and RR, to fix the backfield but I'm thinking of dropping some of the Soviet bridges to slow down the Soviet push somewhat. It will have to be bridges that will fit under my fighter umbrella because I don't need a lot of losses. I'm wondering what Ian is going to do next.




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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/6/2018 9:34:40 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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This is the situation on the northern end of the front lines and you can see that I seem to have contained Ian's forces but it's an illusion because of all the weak spots.

I got a PM from DesertedFox just now asking about home rules for FITE v.5.0 and I've got some ideas for some of those rules.
(1) I suggested that there be no Axis INT missions after T10. There's two reasons for this rule. It might help prevent the Soviet units from just running away from the fight early on. And after T10 or so INT missions only annoy the opposing player and don't usually accomplish much else. Also, I never got much utility out of dropping bridges. Maybe I was doing it wrong. I've learned the value of dropping the bridges near the Soviet front lines however, to help isolate the battlefield.
(2) D21 has a nostacking rule for the Axis minors. No stacking of the units. Not even same-nation units. This will help illustrate the uselessness of the Axis minors I suppose.
(3) Here's one for grins: All aircraft must land at the airfield they departed from on combat missions. Long range ferry excepted.
(4) Overextended units must move into supplied hexes except for those cases where you are trying to kill your units off. Why don't you just disband them instead?
(5) Formations must strive to stay together as formations. Independent units excepted.
(6) The Axis player must garrison Minsk and Riga with a security unit after capture. Partisans can really wreck your day unless security forces are distributed throughout your captured territory.
(7) Artillery duels are always won by Soviet artillery. This is a rough rule of thumb.
(8) If your opponent isn't having fun any longer, switch sides or do something "accidently" to change the course of the game. You need not make it known that you've done this.
(9) Communicate with your opponent frequently to compare perspectives, etc.
(10) Don't play when it's not fun. That will just burn you out. Take some time off when you need to. This is going to be a long war.




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< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 12/6/2018 9:36:23 PM >


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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/6/2018 10:43:37 PM   
MrLongleg

 

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Can't you just try to bag those Russians on the Western side of Peipus as soon as the lake melts? That looks like an idea for a Spring offensive.

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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/6/2018 11:29:28 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrLongleg

Can't you just try to bag those Russians on the Western side of Peipus as soon as the lake melts? That looks like an idea for a Spring offensive.

I think that a really fine idea. I'll try to keep that in mind because I think I can do it.

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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/7/2018 12:18:26 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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Just in case a crisis breaks out I've gotten a good start on building a new MLR and it doesn't look like much right now but all those engineers are increasing the entrenchment in multiple hexes. I'm going to round up all the MP's, AT's, security units, etc. to see if I can't extend it further south. I intend having regiments standing in each hex eventually with the arty behind them. Fortunately railroad lines are really near so the supply level is just short of great. Instead of railing the broken divisions to Berlin for refit I think I'll get them into a good position in this area and let them rest there.





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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/7/2018 9:48:43 AM   
EwaldvonKleist


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Thanks for sharing the game in such a detailed report.
I have a few questions at Devoncop:

1) What made you to launch a number of dispersed offensives at multiple places instead of focusing on two or three major thrusts? Do the game mechanics make a concentration of all artillery/air force/armour assets on a narrow part of the front to achieve a clear and wide breakthrough unrewarding?
2) Your force allocation was quite dispersed, especially in the Odessa-Crimea-lower Dnepr area and the centre bulge, the Axis side in theory enjoyed the advantage of inner lines. Does it have a sufficient rail network and rail capacity to enjoy the advantage, or do in fact the Soviet have the inner lines with a much better and more capable rail network?
3) Are you satisfied with the results of the winter offensive?

It is not meant to be a criticism, but curiosity from someone interested in the Eastern Front and game mechanics, but without knowledge of TOAW IV other than from AARs.

My own armchair-general plan would have been a massive concentration of offensive assets on the various bridgeheads over the Dnepr between Kiev and Zaporoshje combined with a break-out from Odessa and some naval landings to cut off Axis forces in several small and finally a big pocket.
For this the frontline on quiet sectors would have to be stripped to the utmost, if there are excess forces not useful down South a secondary offensive could be launched against parts or the whole of the centre bulge, preferably from the South of it to keeep the inner lines.


Overall Soviets seem in a splendid shape compared to the historical situation. My bet is Berlin in the first half of 1943.

< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 12/7/2018 9:50:44 AM >


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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/7/2018 2:09:12 PM   
devoncop


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Hi Ewald.

Thanks for the interesting post...

Regarding your first point about dispersed attacks...

The attacks I have made at this stage of the war (with the exception of the preplanned concentration on knocking Finland out of the war early) have all been made from a position of overall weakness as we are in the early war period where the Soviets are mainly at a Shock disadvantage and are more what you would think of as local counter attacks designed to try and blunt the overall Axis invasion by trying to divert Panzer units away from the spearheads.

The moves across the river Dnepr around Kiev was a good example of this as the city was falling and there is open country beyond and there were very few Soviet reserves in the area. As such the intention was to halt the Germans whilst reinforcements could be gathered to block any further advance.

As Lake Peipus froze over there was a similar position in the north...Narva was under a lot of pressure and is vital to protect Leningrad. By going across the lake it considerably extended German lines making them divert units from the push on the Narva river line.

Re your second point the dispersal of forces around Odessa is through necessity rather than choice. Once I had decided to fight for Odessa and it had been bypasssed to the north I was unable to reinforce it further due to heavy naval interdiction so Odessa became a separate front in effect......they were on their own until an offensive from the Melitopol/ Sevastapol area can relieve them.

This first Winter Offensive has been about stabilisation rather than any decisive victory so in that sense I am content....Within the next turn or so I am hoping to take Helsinki and considerable forces should be released from the Northern Front for later in the war.Larry did a great job containing my Lake Peipus thrust which at one point I hoped may see me retake the Baltic States very early but other than that I am happy.

I hope that answers your queries.....By the way the rail network for the Soviets is decent along the whole line other than Finland.



< Message edited by devoncop -- 12/7/2018 3:22:40 PM >


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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/7/2018 2:21:07 PM   
hingram


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Question: How much does lack of supply hamper the attacker on this map?

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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/7/2018 2:28:35 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hingram
Question: How much does lack of supply hamper the attacker on this map?

Lack of supply for the Axis is a major problem and is one of the reasons that the campaign in the south took so long. The supply net seems to collapse entirely during the mud seasons. Supply is so poor during that period that the supply bubbles have no number. I usually just stand in place without attacking until it improves enough to operate. This happens between T32 and T49 or so. So there are periods of time that the war has to stop for a while and lots of time is wasted.


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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/7/2018 3:14:28 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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New moves from Ian and this is the Crimea now. Ian has blown another hole in my lines but I think I can contain it so maybe there's no crisis this turn. But there's too many weak spots to be comfortable. The Soviets have turned the entrances to Sevastopol into mini-fortresses. I need to repair the bridge at Kherson to restore the flow of supply into the Crimea. Odessa is still a problem. I haven't been watching the playback so I'm not sure where the Soviet troops are concentrating. I'd better start watching the playback again.




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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/7/2018 3:44:12 PM   
devoncop


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Soviet Turn 63.......25th January 1942

Just a quick update and first a clarification.....on looking at the losses of Heavy Rifle Squads that Larry posted last turn (36,255) and comparing them with Soviet losses of Heavy Rifle Squads (3631) it may give the impression the Germans are getting hammered but this is misleading as in the early war period most Soviet Rifle Squads are not Heavy but Regular Rifle Squads.
Soviet losses in this category are 44,115 with 70,141 on hand which gives a much truer picture.

Last turn NKVD 5th Regiment has reached the gates of Helsinki to find just a Finnish HQ and the coastal fortress there still resisting. A preliminary air bombardment of the city began but to little effect. There are hopes the city may fall this month.

The Soviet positions suffered several co-ordinated Panzer Divn attacks just NW of Valga on the western edge of the Lake Peipus incursion and small units of Soviet Cavalry were displaced and the salient itself looks under some threat.

Down south as Larry has shown above a push is intensifying from the Melitopol lines to try and relieve first Sevastapol and then Odessa..German and Hungarian resistance remains strong however...






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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/8/2018 8:42:09 AM   
devoncop


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Soviet Turn 64

With most of the Soviet air force grounded in reorganisation progress is restricted to pushing the Melitopol local offensive further West leaving Soviet tanks now only 20Km from the forces pushing out of the Sevastapol isthmus and in trying to find take Helsinki.

The remnants of the Soviet Baltic Fleet combined with the few bombers still flying and NKVD and Infantry assault to hit the Finnish Coastal Fort and HQ garrison.The first assault left the city in ruins but was repelled but curious fighting continues and although the Soviet attackers could not enter the city, by turn end the garrison had been wiped out....

Next turn I hope Finland will be knocked out of the war....will the call of its capital be enough? I hope so.


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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/8/2018 11:43:39 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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New moves from Ian and this is the northern front lines and you can see for yourself that there's been no movement of the lines but there has been some arty bombardments back and forth. I'm waiting for Ian to push and he's waiting for me and nothing much is happening up here. I've been conducting an inventory of the combat worthy infantry divisions remaining and I'm not finding healthy numbers. I'm thinking of railing all the broken divisions to Minsk because of the great supply level and it's proximity to where most of the partisans spawn and the excellent rail network there. There's no strategic reserve and only a few Panzer divisions as local reserves, near the middle of the map, sitting on a rail. Eleven aircraft units respawned at Berlin and I moved them to forward positions; most of them were fighters. About 6 LCU's respawned and I'm letting them refit in Berlin. Most of them were cherry red, low on supply, and "untried" instead of "veteran". I don't always check for that when I put attacks together so the first combat for those units might not always be successful and their assigned proficiency might not be all that great. Maybe I should stand the "untried" units out in their formation as a marker to me that units that need special handling are present. And try to find an easy combat for them. Chase down a partisan with them, those are easy.




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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/8/2018 11:54:44 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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This is the southern front lines and I've been successful in containing the Soviets so far. This actually surprised me. I had thought that Ian was going to to have pushed all my units out of the Crimea by now. He may yet. I'm trying to get better organized down here, put the formations back together and so on.




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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/9/2018 6:52:17 AM   
devoncop


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Soviet Turn 65....1st February 1942

With Larry pointing out in the diplo pouch message to me that every turn the Soviets fail to break through is a turn closer to German victory (he is a master at psychological warfare😉) I decide to continue attempts to push West from Meltopol and more ground is gained as a Hungarian Security Division and German Infantry Regiment supporting it are mauled and pushed back whilst Soviet bombers attempt to keep supporting German artillery suppressed.

In the North, Helsinki falls to the tender mercies of the NKVD and I will be holding my breath to see if this causes the considerable number of Finnish Divisions I have managed to pocket throughout the country to disband. If so it will free up a lot of Soviet troops for the next stage of the war.


Morea attacks are made West of Narva and succeed in consolidating the corridor between the troops pushing West and those on the western side of lake Peipus.

Some attacks made in the central area South of Orsha are foiled by dug in artillery but the German formations are getting weakened by these probes.







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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/9/2018 1:10:34 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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@Devoncop: Thank you for your reply! Times will for sure be only harder for the Germans once the Northern Army can be redeployed from the Finnish Front for a new offensive.
Supply lines for your lake Peipus expedition force seem to be in danger when the lakes unfreeze?

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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/9/2018 1:54:27 PM   
devoncop


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

@Devoncop: Thank you for your reply! Times will for sure be only harder for the Germans once the Northern Army can be redeployed from the Finnish Front for a new offensive.
Supply lines for your lake Peipus expedition force seem to be in danger when the lakes unfreeze?


Hi Ewald

The spare troops once rested and moved are already allocated for a new task

See my penultimate entry last turn...steps are underway to secure the supply to troops across Lake Peipus !

Regards

ian

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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/9/2018 6:17:54 PM   
devoncop


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Soviet Turn 66

The Government of Finland surrenders but it's troops remain in the field for now 😠😠😠...communications evidently not too good.

The occupation of the country continues but it keeps many Soviet units tied up until they get the message.

As a means of revenge for this outrageous if heroic resistance a new branch of "Helsinki Cruises" is established and in co ordination with bombers from Leningrad and the Baltic Fleet an excursion to Tallinin overcomes the Coastal Fortress there and Soviet troops land and capture the port placing them well behind the German lines in Northern Estonia....I

In the South ferocious assaults on the Hungarians and Romanians continue with some success and there is almost a meet up with the Sevastapol break out forces but heavy artillery fire prevents it and the turn ends in a failed proficiency check caused by the heavy fighting.....

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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/9/2018 10:58:31 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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New moves from Ian and this time I'm watching the combat replay to see where the Soviet troops are going and I almost swallowed my tongue watching Ian make some amphibious landings in my backfield. I've already committed the reserve so it looks like this time I really have to pull back the troops, give ground and race south to build another MLR somewhere. This was a really good move for Ian to have done. Bravo. I think I read where tanks aren't allowed in wave one but you CAN drive them ashore once you capture the port. I'm going to have to anticipate this sort of tactic from now until the end of the game and there's a lot of unguarded ports between here and Koningsburg. I'll give up the small islands without a fight since they yield me no significant advantage I think. I'm open to advice. The Sweeds can't interviene because of the exclusion zone. This changes the game. What's Ian going to do next?




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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/10/2018 12:05:23 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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I've started moving some units from early in the OOB and those units are mostly MP's, security forces, AT guns, followed by engineers. I've been railing them up here to garrison the ports and act as roadblocks. I realize that I'm going to need a lot more forces yet but it turns out it's not a crisis because I think I can contain all the Soviet units. I've been thinking of bringing the two Panzer divisions up here and have them stand by just in case. They are all that's left of the strategic reserve.




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RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/10/2018 8:34:48 PM   
devoncop


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Hi Guys

I have emailed Larry already but just to let anyone following this know that due to some quite serious real world issues that have sprung up at home there will be a delay in resuming this AAR....

Really sorry.

Best wishes to all.

Ian

_____________________________

"I do not agree with what you say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it"

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 177
RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/11/2018 5:41:51 PM   
hingram


Posts: 127
Joined: 2/6/2002
From: SW Virginia
Status: offline
I was curious about pulling back to extend the Soviet supply lines and then attacking the rail lines.

_____________________________

Hank

If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.

(in reply to devoncop)
Post #: 178
RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/11/2018 5:51:13 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

Posts: 38212
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hingram
I was curious about pulling back to extend the Soviet supply lines and then attacking the rail lines.

Hey there hingram dude. That's a good idea. I'll have to try that. On the other hand it looks like the game is on hold. Ian had something come up in real life that he's got to take care of. I have no idea how long.

_____________________________

Star Trek: TNG Bridge Background Ambience (no conversations)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLrfdcz8Ou4

(in reply to hingram)
Post #: 179
RE: FITE v.5.0 try 2 same sides as before - 12/13/2018 6:33:56 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

Posts: 38212
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
Ummmm....Hey you guys, I got an email from the PBEM++ system
that my game with Ian had gotten itself dropped from the
available games list. I guess Ian had some kind of severe
real life thing that came up and he's got higher priorities
to take care of right now. I guess I need another opponent
to volunteer to play FITE v.5.0, either side is okay with me.
I'm guessing I can do a move a day, maybe more depending on
the complexity of the situation(s). A friendly game where
we share perspectives and compare notes. I'm not very good
I just tend to post a lot. I've never won a FITE game.

_____________________________

Star Trek: TNG Bridge Background Ambience (no conversations)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLrfdcz8Ou4

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 180
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