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Mines. - 10/18/2018 3:54:22 AM   
tjhkkr


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Does anyone out there monkey with mines?
I have been preparing a Hungnam evacuation scenario and phase one is to clear the mines.
Does anyone have any sense of mine density.
I deployed at least 50 moored and floating mines, and the minesweepers had it cleared in 12 hours.
Is there any documentation that anyone is aware of as to how many mines get deployed in a situation?

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RE: Mines. - 10/18/2018 9:28:59 AM   
Bashkire

 

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Watching this with interest. If anyone has any good tips on creating minefields I'd love to hear them. I'm trying to make a mining of the Hormuz mission but the AI only seem to mine the very edge of my mission area...

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RE: Mines. - 10/18/2018 9:37:11 AM   
Gunner98

 

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Keen to see responses to the OP.


For Bashkire - this might be a result of sea depth vs they type of mine you are using. Not sure but worth checking out.

B

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RE: Mines. - 10/18/2018 3:53:47 PM   
tjhkkr


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When I executed the minesweeping operation, I learned a lot...
I lost minesweepers on two occasions.

For the record, what I have learned so far is (keep in mind this is a 1950 scenario):
- There needs to be NARROW channels cut through the mine field to make sure the path is clear.
- Keep minesweepers distant from one another so the detonation of a mine by one sweeper does not damage another (learned that the hard way).
- If hostile airpower is in play (in the real Hungnum it was not), one needs a standing BAR-CAP, because the minesweeper does not easily maneuver (obviously) in a mine field.

I hope others will take interest in this as well.

< Message edited by tjhkkr -- 10/18/2018 3:56:59 PM >


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RE: Mines. - 10/18/2018 10:55:36 PM   
BeirutDude


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Bashkire, This is from a scenario I was working on and then lost interest in. I was thinking of coming back to it, but I modified the Iranian LSTs to drop mines.




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< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 10/18/2018 10:56:40 PM >


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RE: Mines. - 10/18/2018 11:23:39 PM   
Rory Noonan

 

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Mine density is usually a factor of two things, the capability of the mine type(s), and the expense or ease of placing them. In the example of moored mines close to the owner's shore, tbere could be quite a large number. The upper limit of utility would be the explosive radius to avoid chain reactions. More advanced mines can be laid more sparsely, and the more difficult or expensive it is to get mines into position the less extensive and dense fields will be.

As for clearance, sweeping 50 moored mines in 12 hours between two sweepers is definitely within the realms of possibility, and is one of the reasons why moored mines are used a lot less today. The availability and relative cheapness of mines like the Manta and Stonefish mean that a fairly extensive area can be covered with relatively few--and very difficult to detect and disarm--modern mines.

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RE: Mines. - 10/19/2018 10:50:53 AM   
SeaQueen


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I love mines. They're one of my favorite features. The drive to clear them in certain parts of the world motivates a lot of great scenarios. Similarly, the desire to plant them in others makes for other great scenarios.

Mines are typically deployed in straight lines, because ships tend to steam in straight lines and aircraft tend to fly in straight lines. It's not unreasonable to figure on a mine every 1-2 miles. Really, though, number of mines you need depends on what your desired probability of actuating a mine is. If 'a' is the actuation radius of a mine (i.e. the distance at which it goes boom) and L is the distance across the location to be mined, then 2a * N / L = the probability of actuating a mine. By increasing 'N' you increase the probability of one going boom.

Clearance rates depend on a lot of things including the type of mine (moored mines are easier to pick out on sonar than bottom mines), the type of bottom (sandy bottoms shift around a lot, causing bottom mines to get buried, rocky bottoms less so) and the amount of pollution (places where there's a lot of junk on the bottom of the sea have more things that look like they might be mines but aren't). It might even be possible to encounter decoy mines which aren't mines at all but still need to be cleared. It also depends on the method of clearance. Sweeping is faster but less reliable (due to ship counters) than mine hunting.

That's the Cliff's Notes version of mine warfare.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tjhkkr

Does anyone out there monkey with mines?
I have been preparing a Hungnam evacuation scenario and phase one is to clear the mines.
Does anyone have any sense of mine density.
I deployed at least 50 moored and floating mines, and the minesweepers had it cleared in 12 hours.
Is there any documentation that anyone is aware of as to how many mines get deployed in a situation?



< Message edited by SeaQueen -- 10/20/2018 8:43:14 PM >

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RE: Mines. - 10/19/2018 2:50:36 PM   
Bert Blitzkrieg

 

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There is lot of info at Warfare Sims: http://www.warfaresims.com/index.php?s=mines


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RE: Mines. - 10/19/2018 6:51:42 PM   
tjhkkr


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Thank you, this was a good discussion.

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RE: Mines. - 10/19/2018 6:54:34 PM   
tjhkkr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen
I love mines. They're one of my favorite features. The drive to clear them in certain parts of the world motivates a lot of great scenarios. Similarly, the desire to plant them in others makes for other great scenarios.
Mines are typically deployed in straight lines, because ships tend to steam in straight lines and aircraft tend to fly in straight lines. It's not unreasonable to figure on a mine every 1-2 miles. Really, though, number of mines you need depends on what your desired probability of actuating a mine is. If 'a' is the actuation radius of a mine (i.e. the distance at which it goes boom) and L is the distance across the location to be mined, then 2a * N / L = the probability of actuating a mine. By increasing 'N' you increase the probability of one going boom.
Clearance rates depend on a lot of things including the type of mine (moored mines are easier to pick out on sonar than bottom mines), the type of bottom (sandy bottoms shift around a lot, causing bottom mines to get buried, rocky bottoms less so) and the amount of pollution (places where there's a lot of junk on the bottom of the sea have more things that look like they might be mines but aren't). It might even be possible to encounter decoy mines which aren't mines at all but still need to be cleared. None of that is covered by Command. It also depends on the method of clearance. Sweeping is faster but less reliable (due to ship counters) than mine hunting.
That's the Cliff's Notes version of mine warfare.
quote:

ORIGINAL: tjhkkr
Does anyone out there monkey with mines?
I have been preparing a Hungnam evacuation scenario and phase one is to clear the mines.
Does anyone have any sense of mine density.
I deployed at least 50 moored and floating mines, and the minesweepers had it cleared in 12 hours.
Is there any documentation that anyone is aware of as to how many mines get deployed in a situation?


Thank you; that is good to know.
Great discussion.


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Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.

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RE: Mines. - 10/21/2018 3:35:47 AM   
Whicker

 

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Playing around a little with mines:

- would be nice to be able to select them to see what they are/delete - even though I put them there I still don't know what they are as I did a mix. It is easy enough to delete them from an area.
- I want to mine a harbor, but from a sweeping perspective that has issues as the path for RTB is random - no way to tell the AI to use the southern most entrance for example. The path for launching is fixed, but that seems like cheating to know the path the ship leaving will use and just sweep that. Also, the path for leaving a pier seems to be a fixed 7 miles which clears a lot of shallow waters. Either way there is no way to tell the AI to use a set path when entering or leaving a port.
- on a mine laying mission for a ship it seems like it should RTB when the mines are all gone (or as an option, not sure what a sub should do though rtb sounds ok). Or at least have it as an option. AC rtb'd no problem. As it was the ship stayed in the mission area trying to lay mines but had none left.
- also would be nice to specify the distance between them in the mission setup? maybe default to a set value but then be able to increase it if desired.
- for floating mines there is only a 1/1 weapon for that... seems like I would want to have a lot- 100/100 or there abouts? how would I load enough mines to make it worthwhile on a given ship? I found one type that had 80/80 which was nice enough but it wasn't a floating mine.

interesting stuff though.

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RE: Mines. - 10/21/2018 5:51:55 AM   
Whicker

 

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ships on a mine laying mission, since they don't rtb when they run out of mines, eventually get sunk by their own mines since they keep going back and forth in the mine laying areas.

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RE: Mines. - 10/24/2018 10:17:46 AM   
Dimitris

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whicker
ships on a mine laying mission, since they don't rtb when they run out of mines, eventually get sunk by their own mines since they keep going back and forth in the mine laying areas.


They don't RTB...? That sounds like a bug. Can you please cross-post this to the Tech Support forum so that we don't overlook this. Thanks!

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RE: Mines. - 10/24/2018 9:49:47 PM   
tjhkkr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dimitris
quote:

ORIGINAL: Whicker
ships on a mine laying mission, since they don't rtb when they run out of mines, eventually get sunk by their own mines since they keep going back and forth in the mine laying areas.

They don't RTB...? That sounds like a bug. Can you please cross-post this to the Tech Support forum so that we don't overlook this. Thanks!


That is a fairly common issue for mine layers. I had one mining the choke point of the Persian Gulf... part of the victory conditions was to get the minelayer... and it sank itself; multiple times.
That might be my fault some how, but thought you should know.


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Remember that the evil which is now in the world will become yet more powerful, and that it is not evil which conquers evil, but only love -- Olga Romanov.

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