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Combat result explanation - 10/15/2018 7:47:53 AM   
AlexSF


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Can anyone tell me what is that number in bracket after the unit's name? One of the WITE mysteries....




edit: it looks like the individual CV for each unit, right?

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< Message edited by AlexSF -- 10/15/2018 8:21:42 AM >
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RE: Combat result explanation - 10/15/2018 9:45:02 AM   
Stelteck

 

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Yes, it is individual initial Combat Value for each unit *10.


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RE: Combat result explanation - 10/15/2018 9:54:37 AM   
AlexSF


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Oh it's *10, ok.

So here the 5th Mortar Battalion CV is...0 ? Great !

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RE: Combat result explanation - 10/15/2018 11:50:44 AM   
Stelteck

 

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Be careful of what Combat Value is really is.

Combat value is an abstract number only useful at the end of the fight, to calculate who win and who have to retreat. It is not use to calculate combat looses. (Except for retreat attrition).

An artillery support unit have very low combat value for final calculation, but shoot at foe during the battle phase and so decrease the enemy combat value.

Notice that your own CV decrease before and after the battle. You start at 327 CV, but the combat value of 255.6 is used for victory calculation. This is due to various factors (leadership, supply, etc...) but for an important part due to the enemy shooting at you during combat phase.

Infantry have low firepower but high combat value.
Artillery&guns have high firepower but low combat value.
Tanks have both.


< Message edited by Stelteck -- 10/15/2018 11:52:51 AM >

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RE: Combat result explanation - 10/15/2018 12:05:51 PM   
AlexSF


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Thanks for the detailed answer, makes sense now.

On another slightly different subject; retreat. I'm playing a game where I had a whole line of Soviet 2 or 3 units stacks rout instead of retreating in front of Moscow. The only reason I can see is that behind them there was more stacks probably blocking their retreat.
When I read the rules (15.9. Effect of Defender Retreat Result) my understanding is that they should have kept retreating taking attrition damage but not rout right away.
Am I missing something?


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RE: Combat result explanation - 10/15/2018 9:13:01 PM   
Kielec

 

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I cannot help you with the exact mechanics, so sorry for that.
But I have a "feeling" that if a unit that has to retreat has nowhere to go next door, so to say, it routs. Covering the whole defence zone with three units stacks just doesn't allow for any orderly withdrawal. Hence - routs.
Thus, a classical defence setup seems to involve just one unit (preferably well entrenched) behind the first line of defence manned by two units (and perhaps a Fortification Zone, whatever the actual name). Like this, when the first line gets smashed, the FZ gets destroyed and the two "proper" units move back to make a three unit stack on the second line. The daisy chain can go till Vladivostok. Wait, Chelyabinsk, or whatever Urals. But that's the SOP.

Hope this helps.

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RE: Combat result explanation - 10/15/2018 9:32:32 PM   
AlexSF


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Thx, yes sounds good, only I prefer to disband the FZ before the actual fight, it doesnt add anything to the combat, unless you man it with art I guess.

About the stacks routing instead of retreating through another stack I suppose it is what happened to me but it is strange that it is nowhere in the rules. Again, according to the manual they should have kept retreating further and taking attrition. The only time they should rout when in supply is if the combat odds are larger than their average morale, let's say a 45 to 1 final CV value against an average morale of 40 for the stack. It wasnt the case, the combat results were 3 to 1 or 4 to 1.

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RE: Combat result explanation - 10/15/2018 10:27:17 PM   
Kielec

 

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As above: cannot direct you to the manual page on this.

But.
You realise that the combat odds of 4:1 are pretty damning to the defenders, right?
And if they have nowhere to retreat? And if I understand correctly, you are talking about a desperate Moscow defence where just about every hex till the horizon (well, to the East...) is covered with a three unit stack... One can only run for so long before them supplies run out. So they rout...

You may want to go through some AARs where you could see how them serious old boyz defend the Soviet Union by placing defending units in E-W (as in: horizontal) lines of 3, 4, sometimes 5, all digging in, but the lines are interspaced with free ground. Say, you are starting to build a defence line on hex X 96; Y 45. The next unit will be in X 97; Y 45, still next in X 98; Y 45. The other lines of this setup would go along the Y 47 and Y 43 East-West lines (leaving lines Y46 and Y 44 empty!) and so on. So, say X 96/97/98/99; Y 43 (all a bad idea, because it's all "clear" land), and, say, X 96/97/98; Y 47 (all much better than the latter). And so on to the North and South: one line empty, one with 2?-3-4-5? units in horizontal. Plenty of room for withdrawals and you are slowing down the juggernaut with every poor Soviet rifleman's death.

I have taken a rather bad starting point - you will do better. And depending on how the first "chaos" turns went, try to start doing it a bit earlier than 10 hexes from Moscow ;-)

Good luck!!

< Message edited by Kielec -- 10/15/2018 10:29:40 PM >

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RE: Combat result explanation - 10/16/2018 7:10:47 AM   
AlexSF


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Hey, thx for the long answer Kielec. Yes it was in the strategic sector south of Moscow and it cost me the game obviously. I had my first line of 3 div stacks routing massively because thay had another stack of 2 or 3 divs behind them.
I have nothing against that concept of having to leave space behind to retreat but it should be written somewhere in the manual, maybe I missed it but there is nothing about that in the chapter about retreat. It just says that the units will keep retreating and take attrition each hex.
Sorry just ranting here, will do better in my next game, good learning experience I guess

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RE: Combat result explanation - 10/16/2018 9:30:41 AM   
MarauderPL

 

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In my "experience" the units pass some kind of additional check when defeated. Soviet (and axis-allies) units can sometimes rout even if there is a way to retreat. Maybe squeezing through the 3-stacked units gives a significant malus to the check? My gut feeling is that it's either morale or XP, as the Germans can usually retreat through their own 3-stacked hexes, while the Soviets will most likely rout. But my experience is very limited in this regard. I thought it might be a leader check, but the Soviets after assigning their good leaders have a reasonable chance to pass leader tests. So unit morale or XP - morale seems a better guess as it is one number for each unit (so one test) while XP is divided into elements. It also fits thematically (morale fail -> rout) more.

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RE: Combat result explanation - 10/16/2018 10:12:46 AM   
SparkleyTits

 

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Units will attempt to find a retreat path within 3 hexes so you can have multiple lines of full stacks and they will not automatically rout

Other possbilities would be low TOE units and low morale units as they impact the dice rolls on the chance of routing

< Message edited by SparkleyTits -- 10/16/2018 10:13:49 AM >

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RE: Combat result explanation - 10/16/2018 12:20:13 PM   
AlexSF


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My units had decent moral for the Soviet in Oct 41, around 42-45 and their TOE were maxed at 100% so it was not the issue.
The only thing I see is the second and third line of units they had behind them. It blocked their retreat and they routed. Something to remember when you build a defensive line...
I wish I had a screen shot taken before the action but it was a server game. On that screen shot taken after you can imagine the same double line I still have in front of Moscow but right South of it, it got vavorized with massive routing...




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RE: Combat result explanation - 10/16/2018 1:05:44 PM   
SparkleyTits

 

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Kind of difficult to grasp the context here so apologies if I am misunderstanding but you mentioned a double line so I will go off of that in hopes of helping

Even if stacked full of units on both hexes a double line would not of caused an auto rout on a lost battle and the first line would of just retreated to make some kind of messy third line behind your second

I hope that helps at all!

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RE: Combat result explanation - 10/16/2018 2:28:50 PM   
AlexSF


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Well there were more units behind the second line so it possibly blocked them fron retreating, I don't know.
Next time I will have like Kielec suggested above, a first line with 1 div and a second line with 2, won' t be as solid but oh well...

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RE: Combat result explanation - 10/16/2018 2:32:20 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stelteck

Be careful of what Combat Value is really is.

Combat value is an abstract number only useful at the end of the fight, to calculate who win and who have to retreat. It is not use to calculate combat looses. (Except for retreat attrition).

An artillery support unit have very low combat value for final calculation, but shoot at foe during the battle phase and so decrease the enemy combat value.

Notice that your own CV decrease before and after the battle. You start at 327 CV, but the combat value of 255.6 is used for victory calculation. This is due to various factors (leadership, supply, etc...) but for an important part due to the enemy shooting at you during combat phase.

Infantry have low firepower but high combat value.
Artillery&guns have high firepower but low combat value.
Tanks have both.



From my 2x3 AAR:

COMBAT:

To me WitE is an extremely unique movement and combat system. As a comparison, we can Go back to the days of AH Stalingrad and with fixed ZOC's and determining odds. One simply lined the counters up and computed the best odds making 1-6 Soak off attacks to achieve the coveted 3-1 assured victory. WitE has fluid ZOC's and attack is an option not mandatory for entering a ZOC. WitE is also unique in that one can assume some sort of assuredness of "2-1" only to be surprised by the results.

I am a total newbie to this game. Rather than posting from a position of knowledge -- I am posting from my observations inviting those that have played the game to comment on findings.

The combat sequence below with my thoughts:


1. Initiate battle (see section 5.3.1 regarding use of movement mode (F1) to attack)

-- What is interesting is that is a total choice. One huge difference as compared to other wargames is that the object is initially not to get a "defender eliminated," avoiding an "exchange," or worse an "attacker eliminated" but to move the defender from an objective. Failure is simply the result of "Defender Held". The objective is usually a point for armor to penetrate but can be a key river crossing, or urban objective. There are those in this forum that emphasize the lack of dead Germans or Russians from a combat result, but there are multiple subtleties that I see far more interesting. For one, this game follows the typical GG firepower as a separate entity from CV. Firepower does stuff on the tactical level -- CV determines if reserves will participate and who finally holds the target hex. I contend it is not the number killed and disabled shown on the predominate battle screen that determines the victor -- but it's the number disrupted that determines the final results . Want to move defenders from a hex you have to disrupt enough so the final CV is 2:1, and this comes from understanding intricate details in the battle sequence and firepower.

2. Determine fortification defense modifier from terrain and fortification level (15.3)

I think This rule is the lifeblood of the Soviet Union. Forts MULTIPLY defensive indices.

"The combat value of each defending unit is modified by multiplying the CV by one plus the total fortification
defense modifier, which is the sum of the terrain modifier and the fort level" (15.3) So build up Leningrad to fort level 3 and Leningrad 1+8+3 has a multiplier of 12! Plus a forts have an additional nuance:

"To better simulate the ability to pre-register fire locations, he effectiveness of artillery fire
is related to the fort level of the hex containing the firing artillery. The higher the fort level,
the more effective artillery in that hex will be in combat. Due to their ability to participate
in multiple battles, artillery support units attached to headquarters units do not receive any
benefit from fort levels when committed to combat, so this benefit is limited to artillery combat
units as well as artillery support units directly attached to fortified units"

It SEEMS that art attached to units in fort level 3 begins the stage where the above becomes very noticeable ..

The other terrain modifier of interest are minor and major rivers .. 50% of the attacking Infantry and up to 66% of armor can be disrupted and this happens before reserve commitment ... (Remember disruption prevents a unit from participating in firepower or CV)

So if a target hex is limited to being attacked from a few hexes maybe only one hexside .. how can one cross a river or break a fortified position?

3. Commit support units (15.4)

In my opinion the SU is key to moving a defender from a position or keeping a position. Each side has a wide variety of SU's. From a German perspective I can attach up to 3 SU per division and an HQ can contribute up to 6 SU's. I can attack with Bicycle Battalions, Pioneer rangers, Jgd Pz, Stu III, Flam Pz, ...

4. Calculate Combat Values (CV) and odds ratio for reserve commitment (15.5)
5. Commit reserve units (Defender first, then Attacker) (15.5)

The details for reserves is very interesting to me:

First there are MP restrictions and a die(MP's). So the maximum away for attacking is 3 hexes which equates to some number higher and a check .. so the MP's remaining has to be higher than the MP's to move to the battle hex.. and pass a die roll .. then pass the leader initiative check to finally determine if the hex is figuratively overstacked ... the defender has a 6 hex range ... Thus not only does one have to move next to a unit to have combat but one has to think about a defender that has not moved .. and can bring to bare reserve units changing both firepower and CV in the battle hex.

Better yet .. hopefully that reserve unit brings along additional SU's ..An HQ unit 6 more SU's

Once a unit is committed there are less chances more will join the fray ..


"15.5.1.1. RESERVE COMMITMENT LIMITATIONS DUE TO UNIT SIZE
Corps sized combat units are less likely to be committed offensively as they add one to the
leader initiative roll. Brigades and Regiments are more likely to be committed as they subtract
one from the leader initiative roll. In addition, as units in reserve mode from one side are
committed to a battle, the chance of further commitments to the battle decline, based on the
size of the combat units that have already been committed as follows:
Corps =15
Division = 9
Brigade = 5
Regiment = 3
Using the above values, as additional units attempt to be committed, they check to see if
Die(18) is greater than the value of units already committed. If not, the unit is not committed.
6. Calculate initial CV’s and odds ratio (15.6.2)"

So .. the question is ... are regiments stacked in reserve a better choice than say a single corps with three SU's? Say a Russian divisio passes initiative and has the range and MP's . it is 50% to contribute to the battle ..
Thus bombing units within reserve range and increasing fatigue is something to do to address this possibility ..

7. Conduct battle:

A. Air Mission sub-phase (16.0)

The below phases deserve a posting of their own and will comment later .. but airpower policy dictates who shows up ..

1. Phasing player Air Group units committed for ground support [mission]
2. Non-phasing player Air Group units committed for air intercept
3. Air to Air combat
4. (Ground to Air (AA) and Air to Ground combat

This I believe airpower can be the most decisive platforms for determining who moves and who stays. Especially with the latest patch emphasizing dive bombers and de-emphasizing tactical aircraft. If you follow a German attack on combat reporting level '7' and watch Stukas .. you will see high disruptions per Stuka attack. These are squads or guns that will not participate in the combat phase. Bring in 8 or so groups and this is a decisive edge. A river crossing of close initial CV becomes a 5:1 rout ..The tactical aircraft and level bombers also disrupt .. just not as dramatic ..

To defend against IL-2's I put AA in my PzXX and HQ units ..(With the new nerfing I am not sure this is needed anymore?)

Now that the masses are disrupted with a few kills and watching on level 7 ...

B. Ground Combat sub-phase (15.6.1)

This is abstract but a very important detail to understand. The attacker is set at a range and "moves" closer with devices engaging at specified ranges with finally infantry engaging. It is not always intuitive to see what shoots at what. The "useless" bicycle SU can use up the AT guns at range saving the armor for close in work. A MG bn can engage an AT. I have seen MG bn engage Artillery. Infantry vs, Infantry a Stg bn will engage outside of Infantry range and take free shots. From my perspective there is "Roshambo" rock-paper-scissors" interaction between the devices engages with Each Support Unit offering some special advantage countered by some other type of SU.

5. Calculate final CV and odds ratio (15.8)

Remember disrupted devices and squads do not contribute, and thus is quite possible to kill very few things but have a very high disruption level. The factors that either move a defender or have the defender hold the hex ..

6. Determine Winner and Loser (15.8)
A. If Defender lost, determine retreat result (15.9)

"When a unit retreats or displaces, it suffers retreat attrition, which can result in some of its
ground elements becoming damaged, destroyed or captured. The extent of retreat attrition
is based on the unit’s current morale and the experience and fatigue of the unit’s ground
element"

This is why I believe why bombing units with tactical aircraft before the actual battle might be worth it .. disruption is converted into fatigue 1/3 of fatigue = 10% loss of CV.. so yes disruption from previous unit air attacks is resolved .. but the unit starts at a higher fatigue level .. plus I THINK disruption from the actual combat is converted into fatigue before this phase .. thus this is where the "KILLS" come .. not shooting things with 88's but in the retreat phase with highly fatigued, low morale and experienced units being pushed out of a hex .. add rout and shattered as pluses to this algorithm

NOTE: Germans start with higher morale and thus appear less affected by this rule than Russians? I can say I got a lower morale unit smacked by Russkies with "borked" (I am being sarcastic) results ..

»» Could be retreat, rout and displacement move (15.10), shatter, or surrender
»» retreat attrition (15.11)

quote:

15.9.1. DEFENDER RETREAT PATH PRIORITIES
Defending units that have not shattered or routed will then attempt to retreat to a friendly
controlled hex using the following priorities. Retreating units will tend to retreat to hexes not
adjacent to enemy units. They will try to avoid retreating into an over stack condition (i.e. a
hex that already has three friendly units), but if they do, they must continue to retreat and take
additional retreat attrition losses for each additional hex that they retreat through. Retreating
units tend to retreat to hexes that cost fewer MPs to reach, have rail lines, have fort levels
and contain fewer friendly combat units. Retreating over unfrozen minor river hexside causes
double retreat attrition, while retreating over an unfrozen Major river hexside causes triple
retreat attrition. At the conclusion of the retreat, the retreating unit suffers retreat attrition once
for each adjacent hex that contains an enemy combat unit.

..................

15.11. RETREAT ATTRITION
When a unit retreats or displaces, it suffers retreat attrition, which can result in some of its
ground elements becoming damaged, destroyed or captured. The extent of retreat attrition
is based on the unit’s current morale and the experience and fatigue of the unit’s ground
elements. Units with higher morale and ground elements with higher experience and lower
fatigue will suffer less from retreat attrition. Damaged ground elements are even more likely to
be captured, dependent on their experience and whether the unit has a support squad ground
element shortage. Damaged ground elements can also have their equipment destroyed while
the manpower in the ground element is classified as disabled. Generic organic vehicles can
be damaged or destroyed as a result of unit retreat attrition. Units that are forced to retreat
across a river hexside will suffer double the normal retreat attrition for a minor river and triple
the retreat attrition for a major river.



So .. for each hex a unit retreats it undergoes the 'code' written for 15.11. Once a threashhold is reachd -- unit(s) routs. IN 8MP AAR I show a 2.01:1 battle that results in 3 units routing. These units are pushed 2 hexes and then across a major river (The Oka).

quote:

A combat unit that is in Supply and forced to retreat
will rout at the conclusion of combat if the final combat value odds ratio is greater than the
morale of the unit. For example, at the conclusion of a battle, a unit with morale of forty will
rout if the attacker’s adjusted CV is greater than forty times the defender’s adjusted CV. The
exception is that if a unit has a valid hex to retreat to, then it will not be susceptible to a rout
as long as it passes a check where the unit Morale is greater than or equal to 40+die(15).
This means that units with morale that is 55 or greater will never rout. Units that rout will
perform a displacement move instead of a normal retreat (15.9.4, 15.10).



One clarification to the above a unit with a morale of 55 or above with a place to retreat to ..But a unit under going 15.11 takes disruption, disablement, a destroyed results

Then after undergoing 15.11 algorithm there are 18.2 and 9.5.1 routines during the logistics phase.

Recover Disabled Manpower segment (18.2)
9.5.1. GROUND ELEMENT ATTRITION

Then there is the damaged devices so the intial battle report might not show all the damage done. But a look at the logistics phase in the show losses screen will show these results.










_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to Stelteck)
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RE: Combat result explanation - 10/16/2018 3:10:23 PM   
SparkleyTits

 

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Well in a completely ideal situation when my units are good in TOE and morale so unlikely to rout on a lose what I try to do is a 3 stack of divisions in the first then a 2 stack of divisions in the second then a 1 stack in the third line if I have the luxury

When you do this and the first line is attacked they will retreat into the other two prepared lines making 2 more lines of 3 stacks and then leaves a new hex to retreat to when the second and third lines are breached
It's a good way of still bringing the maximum of CV to each fight with a bit of luck without having to sacrifice auto routs just make sure you prepare the fort levels in all 3 lines ahead of time

If this doesn't make sense just send me a pm and I can do some pics if you like as I know it's hard to convey over text

< Message edited by SparkleyTits -- 10/16/2018 3:11:00 PM >

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