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OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Michael.... - 10/13/2018 9:44:16 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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Couldn't fly away due to "mechanical difficulties". So we lose 15%, or so, as they were hangar queens and couldn't escape the storm.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-10-13/hurricane-cost-may-skyrocket-billions-stealth-fighter-jets-unaccounted-tyndall-afb

Another victory for the MIC.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Post #: 1
RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/13/2018 9:44:49 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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In case you're wondering: Unit Cost is $250,000,000.00

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RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/13/2018 10:34:13 PM   
geofflambert


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Remember seeing how little damage was done to a Syrian AFB by our Tomahawk missiles? We need to hire some of those guys to design our AFBs.

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RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/14/2018 1:36:26 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Remember seeing how little damage was done to a Syrian AFB by our Tomahawk missiles? We need to hire some of those guys to design our AFBs.


You mean the Russian engineers that cleaned things off nicely before the next satellite pass / BDA? Our own military intelligence / engineers are more than capable of cleaning things like that up and faking 'non-damage' for the media.

Similarly, the Russian engineers / state-controlled media did a fine job cleaning up after the tomahawk strike and putting on a brave face:

https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/07/politics/new-satellite-imagery-of-bombed-syrian-base/index.html

If I wanted to trump up an 'ineffectual' strike, I'd make sure I flew a plane or two out of there ASAP also.


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RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/14/2018 2:01:35 AM   
Rusty1961

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Remember seeing how little damage was done to a Syrian AFB by our Tomahawk missiles? We need to hire some of those guys to design our AFBs.


You mean the Russian engineers that cleaned things off nicely before the next satellite pass / BDA? Our own military intelligence / engineers are more than capable of cleaning things like that up and faking 'non-damage' for the media.

Similarly, the Russian engineers / state-controlled media did a fine job cleaning up after the tomahawk strike and putting on a brave face:

https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/07/politics/new-satellite-imagery-of-bombed-syrian-base/index.html

If I wanted to trump up an 'ineffectual' strike, I'd make sure I flew a plane or two out of there ASAP also.




45 minutes for a low-orbit SATT pass. Not going to clean up a Tomahawk strike in 45 minutes.


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RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/14/2018 7:21:21 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Couldn't fly away due to "mechanical difficulties". So we lose 15%, or so, as they were hangar queens and couldn't escape the storm.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-10-13/hurricane-cost-may-skyrocket-billions-stealth-fighter-jets-unaccounted-tyndall-afb

Another victory for the MIC.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$

The newscast I saw said they were over $350 million apiece. The TV showed an overhead shot of a damaged aircraft in the hangar, but it had a single tail - likely an F-16. Then they showed a ground shot that showed what they said was a double tail, characteristic of the F-22. Only trouble was, one of the tails had the sloped part on the left and the vertical (aft end) part on the right, but it was reversed for the other tail - which can only mean two different aircraft parked facing opposite directions. There seems to be a lot of speculation about the number of F-22s actually damaged.

Having said that, the devastation of Homestead AFB Florida a couple of decades ago should have delivered a lesson about building hurricane-proof hangars!

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RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/14/2018 8:01:57 AM   
JeffroK


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Its not the first hurricane for the season and may not be the last.
Why not ship them to a safer place on a flatbed trailer/tank transporter?
Even a little damage is better than a write off.

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RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/14/2018 12:53:12 PM   
Olorin


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I 'm no expert in modern aircraft, but these airplanes seem overly expensive, sophisticated and delicate for mass production.

Am I right in saying that they 're suited only for limited wars against smaller powers and in the event of a total war a simpler and cheaper design must be mass produced?

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RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/14/2018 10:46:40 PM   
sstevens06


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F-22 production ended in 2012 with only 187 built. Originally intended as the "High" component of an F-22/F-35 "High-Low" mix, F-22 is a 5th generation (stealth) fighter designed for achieving and maintaining air dominance over peer and near-peer adversaries. No F-22s were exported due to the sensitive nature of technologies used.

Now all production is focused on various versions of the F-35, which though inferior to F-22 in the air-superiority role, is also an advanced stealth fighter with formidable capabilities.

Ending F-22 production was a mistake IMO.

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Post #: 9
RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/14/2018 11:15:17 PM   
Anachro


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I'd bet on an F-22 in any air battle any day. Shame production ended and I do have a lot of misgivings about the cost of current programs and the military-industrial complex. However, the F-22 is a great fighter.

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RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/14/2018 11:41:46 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffroK

Its not the first hurricane for the season and may not be the last.
Why not ship them to a safer place on a flatbed trailer/tank transporter?
Even a little damage is better than a write off.

From the news posts, this storm took the authorities by surprise. At this time of year most storms lose power before reaching landfall, but this one gained strength to Cat 4 with about two days before landfall. That started a full scale bug-out by most of the population, with roads being closed to incoming traffic so all lanes could be used for the evacuation. I would guess that the AFB did not have many flatbed transporters and could not get more in time because of the road restrictions.

Still no excuse of having roofs blow off. In Newfoundland where they get severe straight-line winds over 100 mph, the houses often have wire cables strung over the roof to keep it in place. Same for mobile homes that are in tornado zones. It's ugly, but it can pay off big time.

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RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/14/2018 11:46:35 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

I'd bet on an F-22 in any air battle any day. Shame production ended and I do have a lot of misgivings about the cost of current programs and the military-industrial complex. However, the F-22 is a great fighter.


It spends most of its time in the hanager. 51% are not air-worthy at any one time. That is the definition of lemon if there ever was one.

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RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/15/2018 3:48:51 AM   
CaptBeefheart


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That base must not be on a railroad, or else they could have moved them out to another railroad base.

Cheers,
CB

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RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/15/2018 11:59:43 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptBeefheart

That base must not be on a railroad, or else they could have moved them out to another railroad base.

Cheers,
CB



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RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/15/2018 1:34:47 PM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

quote:


Secretary of the Air Force had a statement last night:

TONIGHT: Our maintenance professionals will do a detailed assessment of F-22s @TeamTyndall before we can say w certainty that damaged aircraft can be repaired/sent back into the skies...Damage was less than we feared and preliminary indications are promising.



Leo "Apollo11"

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RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/15/2018 3:59:47 PM   
Uncivil Engineer

 

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One look at this map and you can see they're asking for trouble. Why would anyone decide to put a base there?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Tyndall+AFB,+FL+32403/@30.0807553,-85.6318994,12.25z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x88948008cab8a5c9:0x116ab99886e32b89!8m2!3d30.0800072!4d-85.6075064

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RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/15/2018 4:18:30 PM   
Lecivius


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It's actually a great place for it, if you take hurricanes & global warming out of the picture.

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RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/15/2018 5:18:10 PM   
Uncivil Engineer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

It's actually a great place for it, if you take hurricanes & global warming out of the picture.


IF

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RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/15/2018 5:23:25 PM   
Uncivil Engineer

 

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I also heard that the University of Florida had (used to have) a weather station at Tyndall; the anemometer "stopped working" at 130 mph.

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RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/15/2018 8:58:15 PM   
pmelheck1

 

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http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/24204/setting-the-record-straight-on-why-fighter-jets-cant-all-simply-fly-away-to-escape-storms

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RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/15/2018 11:04:18 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

It's actually a great place for it, if you take hurricanes & global warming out of the picture.

One reporter said it was the closest base to the largest aircraft and air weapons testing/training range in the world, and for that reason the base will likely be rebuilt.

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Post #: 21
RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/15/2018 11:08:43 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pmelheck1

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/24204/setting-the-record-straight-on-why-fighter-jets-cant-all-simply-fly-away-to-escape-storms


"The F-22, in particular, is more analogous to an exotic supercar or even a high-end race car than anything else. It requires dozens of hours of maintenance for every single flight hour and deep maintenance can take days or even many weeks to accomplish, depending on what is needed to be done and availability of spare parts, which can be scarce. "

Thanks for the link, but the author makes the case that these MIC fubars are too exotic to be flyable dependable. My Porsche 928 is exotic, but I can drive it at a given moments' notice.

These planes are usually unflyable at only 49% are at any given moment.

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Post #: 22
RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/16/2018 8:39:46 PM   
obvert


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Whatever the damage, it coulda been worse. This from May when Alberto came through!

Also, if the roof blew off and a bit of debris landed on these planes, do we really think the USAAF writes them off at that price tag? I'd guess not. The cost is not likely as high for the skin and bones as it is for the electronics and internals.






Attachment (1)

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RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/16/2018 10:50:48 PM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin

I 'm no expert in modern aircraft, but these airplanes seem overly expensive, sophisticated and delicate for mass production.

Am I right in saying that they 're suited only for limited wars against smaller powers and in the event of a total war a simpler and cheaper design must be mass produced?


There's very little in today's military that is "mass produced". Except maybe MREs. And bullets.

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RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/17/2018 1:10:32 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


quote:

ORIGINAL: Olorin

I 'm no expert in modern aircraft, but these airplanes seem overly expensive, sophisticated and delicate for mass production.

Am I right in saying that they 're suited only for limited wars against smaller powers and in the event of a total war a simpler and cheaper design must be mass produced?


There's very little in today's military that is "mass produced". Except maybe MREs. And bullets.


And the next total war is going to last thirty minutes.

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RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/17/2018 3:34:06 AM   
Anachro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
And the next total war is going to last thirty minutes.


The advent of new technologies might make wars lightning quick and thus there is no need for mass production to fight a war of attrition. This is especially true for limited wars, which are the majority of wars fought. Even in the case of wars between great powers, the existence of nukes makes full scale invasions of landmasses and wars of attrition less likely. I don't think the US would ever consider an invasion of the Chinese landmass and vice-versa. Great powers would be loath to use nuclear weapons to achieve breakthroughs for fear of weapons used against them and thus such duels might eventually devolve to limited actions along the periphery as missiles strike the heartlands.

So I won't dispute you as that could very well be the case, but I'm also reminded of the Kaiser's words to the troops in August as World War 1 began.

quote:

You will be home before the leaves fall from the trees.


Such assumptions of the type of wars that will be fought in the future could be very wrong and we might find ourselves in a situation where productive capacity and ability to withstand attrition is just as important as technology. Given that, I still think it is strategically important to protect an industrial base if you have it and to build it up if you don't.

Thankfully for the US and other western nations, the hollowing out that has happened over the last few decades should at least partially reverse itself naturally, regardless of Trump or his policies. With the advent of automation labor will becomes less of a factor and the cost of transportation ever a greater calculus in the seeking of profit. This should result in a period of repatriotization of manufacturing...

Wow, I'm going off on a tangent here. What were talking about again?

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RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/17/2018 12:03:51 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
And the next total war is going to last thirty minutes.


The advent of new technologies might make wars lightning quick and thus there is no need for mass production to fight a war of attrition. This is especially true for limited wars, which are the majority of wars fought. Even in the case of wars between great powers, the existence of nukes makes full scale invasions of landmasses and wars of attrition less likely. I don't think the US would ever consider an invasion of the Chinese landmass and vice-versa. Great powers would be loath to use nuclear weapons to achieve breakthroughs for fear of weapons used against them and thus such duels might eventually devolve to limited actions along the periphery as missiles strike the heartlands.

So I won't dispute you as that could very well be the case, but I'm also reminded of the Kaiser's words to the troops in August as World War 1 began.

quote:

You will be home before the leaves fall from the trees.


Such assumptions of the type of wars that will be fought in the future could be very wrong and we might find ourselves in a situation where productive capacity and ability to withstand attrition is just as important as technology. Given that, I still think it is strategically important to protect an industrial base if you have it and to build it up if you don't.

Thankfully for the US and other western nations, the hollowing out that has happened over the last few decades should at least partially reverse itself naturally, regardless of Trump or his policies. With the advent of automation labor will becomes less of a factor and the cost of transportation ever a greater calculus in the seeking of profit. This should result in a period of repatriotization of manufacturing...

Wow, I'm going off on a tangent here. What were talking about again?


I was responding to "total" versus "limited." Total is total.

A discussion of the rest would be interesting, but "veerable" under forum rules.

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RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/17/2018 12:28:31 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


And the next total war is going to last thirty minutes.


I'll see your 30 and raise it to 90. After all, 90 minutes is the time frame in "So Long, Mom (A Song for World War III)". Of course that depends on the Russians or the Chinese not having heard it which is a fair bet for AFAIK, none of his work has been translated into those languages.

Alfred

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Post #: 28
RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/17/2018 4:54:32 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

I don't think the US would ever consider an invasion of the Chinese landmass and vice-versa.



Vizzini specifically recommended against getting involved in a land war in Asia. I wonder if we're as smart as he is.

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Post #: 29
RE: OT: X>24 F22 damaged/Destroyed by Hurricane Mich... - 10/17/2018 6:00:48 PM   
sstevens06


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This appeared in today's Wall Street Journal opinion section:

quote:

Fighters Downed by Hurricane
Why America’s best military aircraft couldn’t fly to escape a storm.
By The Editorial Board
Oct. 16, 2018 7:19 p.m. ET

Hurricane Michael did terrible damage in Florida last week, and that may include some of the world’s most capable military aircraft left in its path. But why can’t Air Force F-22 jet fighters, of all things, escape a storm? Answer: They lack the parts to be operational and so were stuck in hangars to take a beating.

Air Force Secretary Heather Wilson said Sunday that the damage to an unspecified number of F-22s on Tyndall Air Force Base was “less than we feared.” But maintenance professionals will have to conduct a detailed assessment before the Air Force can say with certainty that the planes will fly again. Press reports estimate that at least a dozen planes were left on the base due to maintenance and safety issues.

Welcome to a fighting force damaged by bad political decisions and misguided priorities. Of the Air Force’s 186 F-22s, only about 80 are “mission capable,” according to a July analysis from the Government Accountability Office. The average across the Air Force in 2017 was that about 7 in 10 planes were mission capable, which is still too low for meeting increasing demands.

Part of the F-22 problem is upkeep on a coating that helps the planes evade radar. Another issue is the supply chain for parts now that the U.S. no longer produces the airplane, and “some original manufacturers no longer make the parts or are completely out of business,” GAO notes. Air Force officials told GAO that a simple wiring harness requires a 30-week lead time for finding a new contractor and producing the part. Ripping out parts from planes that work, or “cannibalizing,” is now common practice in military aviation.

Then there’s scale, or lack thereof. The Air Force in the 1990s planned for about 650 F-22s, which were designed to replace the F-15. That number fell to about 380 over time, according to GAO, but in 2009 President Obama and Defense Secretary Bob Gates convinced Congress to shut down the production line.

At the time Messrs. Obama and Gates argued that the U.S. had to focus on defeating unconventional enemies (Islamic State), whereas the F-22 is designed for air dominance against conventional national forces, which could also be handled by the new F-35.
This now looks like a mistake, as Russia and China improve their military technology and the F-35 continues to have a cascade of problems. The Pentagon last week grounded the entire F-35 fleet for a fuel tube issue, though most were cleared to fly again as of Monday. Now the F-35 is the only fighter show in town. The Air Force looked at restarting the F-22 production line and predicted it’d cost billions to launch. That isn’t happening.

The larger mistake of the Obama years was cutting defense willy-nilly to pay for entitlements and other priorities, which meant military units in all branches were crunched for training, flight hours and maintenance. Budget uncertainty through “continuing resolutions” from Congress compounded the pain.

Republicans in Congress and the Trump Administration this year accepted Democratic demands to spend more on income transfers to get a bump in defense spending that included some $47 billion to get planes flying. But Democrats are promising to cut defense again if they win the House. They pretend that a vote for free health care is affordable, but damaged planes on the tarmac is one more lesson that more spending on entitlements eventually means too few planes that can fly.
Appeared in the October 17, 2018, print edition.

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