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Soviet Super Heavy Artillery - 9/27/2018 3:30:24 AM   
thedoctorking


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The Soviets have a bunch of Super Heavy Gun units - Heavy Mortar Regiments and BM Howitzer Regiments - at the beginning of the game or available for purchase in 1941. These units are equipped with the 280mm mortar and the 203mm Howitzer respectively. The mortar does not have any new production and the howitzer stops production in December 1941.

My question is, what happens to the units that use these weapons as they run out of equipment? In a scenario I'm playing, set in 1942, the Soviet player has a dozen or more BM Howitzer regiments, five of which are at 16% TOE with 2 guns. Are they ever going to start using the new Soviet go-to heavy gun, the 152mm gun-howitzer? They would have to switch TOE, and looking at the TOE page, they don't seem to have any scheduled switch date.
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RE: Soviet Super Heavy Artillery - 9/27/2018 12:33:03 PM   
AlexSF


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Maybe one could disband a couple of these regiments (the ones with low TOE left), the guns would go to the pool and then reinforce the regiments you decided to keep.

(in reply to thedoctorking)
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RE: Soviet Super Heavy Artillery - 9/27/2018 2:11:39 PM   
Saulust

 

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Interesting question tDrK, I've had a look at start of 42-45 GC as Soviets and on the Heavy Mortar Rgmts while there aren't any at all in the field as SU to exactly double check as it were, if you plug up the "Equipment" tab on the Commanders Reports Screen it has an update for the 280mm super heavy Mortars to item 822 which has it as the 203mm Howitzer. So it looks like one of these 2 kinds of super heavy weapons 'upgrades' to the other... so back to square one...by a half or something!

Looking at the list of RMGTs of Soviet Art in the Commaders Report Units Screen and clicking 'Guns' lists the units in order of numbers of guns in the ledger. Doing so I see 23 BM Howitzer Rgmts with only 2 203mm Howitzers in them all in only two Front level HQs, the Moscow MD & Volga MD. Looking at both of these HQs attached SU lists have them as (u).

There are 25 more BM Howitzer Rgmts with quite a variance of numbers of guns present up to 12 which is the units TOE max. Only 4 of them are at 12 in the Moscow Defence Zone. So it would be very costly in terms of Admin Points to have to disband enough of these to get the rest up to 12, even if you start with the fuller ones and worked your way down or eliminated just the 16% TOE two guns 203mm Howitzer Rgmts and leave it at that. So apart from 4 full ones there are 21 others that could use those 46 guns from the 23 (u)s, but after that there would be battle losses to farther askue TOEs of the remainder. Unless they auto-change to 152mm as you wish, I don't know of any other fixes except demobilising them other than just not to ever use the (u) two gunners of those two HQs.

< Message edited by Saulust -- 9/27/2018 3:11:09 PM >

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RE: Soviet Super Heavy Artillery - 9/27/2018 9:47:20 PM   
thedoctorking


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I'm just wondering if they can convert at some point to regular heavy artillery regiments. Costs a lot of AP to just delete them.

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RE: Soviet Super Heavy Artillery - 9/27/2018 10:06:05 PM   
Kielec

 

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Shouldn't that be an option? As in, in-game? Switch the TOE of a unit to something else, costs you x AP depending on how crazy you want to go... I understand that upgrading a Soviet Rifle Brigade into a Tank Corps should not be an option, no mater what the AP cost. But downgrading a super-heavy Arty into something you actually produce/get as LL? Why not at a cost of... 0? OK, let it cost the equivalent of disbanding. Should make everybody happy, no?

(in reply to thedoctorking)
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RE: Soviet Super Heavy Artillery - 9/28/2018 2:38:37 AM   
thedoctorking


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With aircraft, it's automatic. You have a level bomber squadron with SB-2's. You run out of SB-2's (no more are being produced) the game automatically converts the squadron to some other sort of level bomber, like a Pe-2.

The problem is that the 203mm Howitzer and 280mm Mortar are designated as "super heavy gun" and there is no weapon in that type being produced. So they won't automatically take a different type of artillery piece.

There's a similar problem with armored units - they have both "light tank' and "medium tank" lines in their TOE. It is not unusual, for a variety of reasons, for the "medium tank" pool to have thousands of unused tanks in it while the army is seriously short of "light tanks", especially in 1942. I can't imagine that Soviet planners would have let that situation continue. They would have issued those T-34's to the tank corps that were short of T-60/70 models. The level of flexibility in TOE that this requires appears to be beyond the game engine's capacity, though. Probably the same problem with the super heavy guns, sadly. You just have to bite the bullet, use the disband function to send some of the guns back to the pool, and they will be reassigned to the remaining units. As the number of guns shrink, you progressively disband units. The support and vehicles liberated will help the rest of your army, anyway.

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RE: Soviet Super Heavy Artillery - 9/28/2018 4:37:49 AM   
Saulust

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking
The problem is that the 203mm Howitzer and 280mm Mortar are designated as "super heavy gun" and there is no weapon in that type being produced. So they won't automatically take a different type of artillery piece.

There's a similar problem with armored units - they have both "light tank' and "medium tank" lines in their TOE...


It isn't only "with aircraft, it's automatic", also with ground units including Soviet Artillery that swaps up or downgrade. Ummm, don't Soviet Light Tanks get replaced in TOEs quite often with Cav Tanks, so TOE x amount of T-26s get filled by up to x number of BT-7s, would what is happening there be similar if Soviet Super Heavy Artillery guns were able to be replaced by 152mm types. How would or could that not be the case?

I personally think the problem with the 1942-45 GC is that the appropriate number of these two types of Soviet Super Heavy Artillery guns are not represented in the number of their pieces being allotted in the initial set up. They were strategic assets after all.

Briefly checking the Web (WP!) because I have no other sources, I find that for the 280mms that there were 8 Battalions through the Patriotic War, some even being used in Berlin, with as in game 6 pieces each. They lost 9 of these during 1941, out however many they had built up to 1940. The 1941-45 GC game starts with 12 Battalions of these with a couple in the pool for 80 pieces in total. This might work out somewhat if the scenario design had it about right or if they used this gun piece to represent the very few 305mm units & guns never depicted in game AFAIK, if that sort of thing happens to be the case.

Still at least this 280mm can downgrade to the 203mm, but yeah that seems to be the problem with it categorised as a super heavy gun, not able to change or swap a peg further down to the plentiful 152mm M-10s Howitzer.

The simple problem with the 1942-45 GC is that the 203mm Heavy Howitzer has too many Regimental units to actually use all that they have on hand for the TOE max of 12 pieces to cover. The 1941 start has it exactly 50 pieces short AIUI, since there were reportedly 871 produced by Soviet arsenal up to end of '41, with 822 (28 Rgmts of 24 guns each so 672 in the field plus 150 in the pool) present at start. However I can't work out actual game production TBH. In a current game on T16 (9th of October '41) as Soviets I see produced 178 pieces of these. So how many that will be in total built by the date they actually stop in December I don't know, but seems to be about a dozen per Week, so perhaps another 80-100 more.

So as far as I see the 1941 GC has the right number or so of these two Super Heavy Artillery pieces but the 1942-45 GC start set up can't be right at all with far too many Regimental units with not enough gun pieces to cover with no pool or production to ever meet demand and it is exasperated by the Super Heavy gun category restriction to downgrading to 152mm.

OTOH in regards to 152mm Heavy guns, there should also be the Br-2 152mm Super Heavy gun L/47.2 designed in 1935, also built 1937-40 but only of 37+ number of pieces in total. They were mostly in one Regiment of four Battalions along with two independent ones all each of 3 Batteries of two gun pieces similar to the Br-5 280mm, but however once the War started they were apparently handled in six 6 gun pieced independent Battalions. I don't see them in game either, but may be the extra Br-5s also represent them too perhaps since there were only supposedly 47+ of those ever built in eight 6 gun pieced Btlns, but I don't think so since together there should be 14 Btlns.

< Message edited by Saulust -- 9/28/2018 5:43:00 AM >

(in reply to thedoctorking)
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RE: Soviet Super Heavy Artillery - 9/28/2018 10:28:10 PM   
thedoctorking


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Thanks Saulust for the historical background on these pieces. I think the issue in game terms is that you have to stop construction of these pieces in December 1941 in line with the historical Soviet decision to conserve armaments and concentrate on the cheaper lighter guns. As the Soviet player, I'd like to be able to have the choice to stop production or continue.

It would be nice if in version 2.0 they have some sort of factory conversion option like in War in the Pacific, where you could decide to switch to producing a new model of bomber or keep on making the old one. And have factories for all the artillery and other support weapons, too. Why not?

(in reply to Saulust)
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RE: Soviet Super Heavy Artillery - 9/29/2018 1:04:12 AM   
Saulust

 

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WITE tries very hard to be historical historical - so if they let you decide to continue production of the 203mm Br-4 Heavy Howitzer gun piece after December 1941 they would have to allow the option too many other equipment types and then you'd have people wanting to start producing stuff earlier say in the prototype stage, then the design stage and then in the conception stage....

OTOH I don't have War in the Pacific, however if it happens in that game I suppose why not then.

I am more concerned given this historical accuracy focus in WITE that the correct number of these Soviet strategic asset Super Heavy gun pieces are not allotted in adequate numbers at the start of big scenarios especially 42-45 GC.

(in reply to thedoctorking)
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RE: Soviet Super Heavy Artillery - 9/29/2018 5:59:20 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Saulust

OTOH I don't have War in the Pacific, however if it happens in that game I suppose why not then.



Simplified: only for aircraft and then only if you play Japan. What you can do as either side is control when 'ground elements' are upgraded and who gets them but never what is produced unless it a mod.





(in reply to Saulust)
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