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Chinese plundering WW2 wrecks - 9/6/2018 2:47:52 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1005444/chinese-pirates-plundering-ransacking-british-war-graves-ships-world-war-2
Post #: 1
RE: Chinese plundering WW2 wrecks - 9/6/2018 2:56:07 PM   
btd64


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I'm not surprised anymore. People just have no respect for the war dead. Or the living....GP

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RE: Chinese plundering WW2 wrecks - 9/6/2018 2:56:14 PM   
Lokasenna


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So what are you going to do about it, besides be mad on the internet?

Edit - this comment was directed at OP.

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Post #: 3
RE: Chinese plundering WW2 wrecks - 9/6/2018 3:10:29 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2368
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

So what are you going to do about it, besides be mad on the internet?

Edit - this comment was directed at OP.


This issue always pops up every couple of months and there's the usual deluge of outrage.

The countries where the salvagers/scavengers/pirates/whatever are based from couldn't care less because:

1. There's money to be made in it.
2. It's a tiny issue in the grand scheme of international politics.
3. Why would any politicans in South-East Asia decide to defend the sunken property of the imperial and colonial nations that are the cause of so many problems?

FWIW, I dislike the notion of sunken ships being a war-grave. It's not really: it's steel at the bottom of the ocean, any human remains are long dissolved now. There's an elegant practical solution to it all without the international outcry:

- mount an expedition and retrieve an artifact(s) from the ship (the ships bell is always a nice one).
- sell salvage rights with the condition that funds are dedicated to creating a memorial for the sunken ship
- have said artifact as centrepeice of the memorial

Everyone wins. There's the potential for commerical gain, there's something to remember the sunken vessal and the lost crew (as well as a tangible, phsyical memorial rather than open ocean) and the international pissing contest is stopped.

Sadly that seems to make too much sense to most people...

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 4
RE: Chinese plundering WW2 wrecks - 9/6/2018 3:36:35 PM   
joey


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Joined: 5/8/2004
From: Johnstown, PA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

So what are you going to do about it, besides be mad on the internet?

Edit - this comment was directed at OP.


This issue always pops up every couple of months and there's the usual deluge of outrage.

The countries where the salvagers/scavengers/pirates/whatever are based from couldn't care less because:

1. There's money to be made in it.
2. It's a tiny issue in the grand scheme of international politics.
3. Why would any politicans in South-East Asia decide to defend the sunken property of the imperial and colonial nations that are the cause of so many problems?

FWIW, I dislike the notion of sunken ships being a war-grave. It's not really: it's steel at the bottom of the ocean, any human remains are long dissolved now. There's an elegant practical solution to it all without the international outcry:

- mount an expedition and retrieve an artifact(s) from the ship (the ships bell is always a nice one).
- sell salvage rights with the condition that funds are dedicated to creating a memorial for the sunken ship
- have said artifact as centrepeice of the memorial

Everyone wins. There's the potential for commerical gain, there's something to remember the sunken vessal and the lost crew (as well as a tangible, phsyical memorial rather than open ocean) and the international pissing contest is stopped.

Sadly that seems to make too much sense to most people...



I like your proposal. It makes logical sense. But it is way too logical to ever be adopted in today's geopolitical environment.

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 5
RE: Chinese plundering WW2 wrecks - 9/6/2018 5:48:46 PM   
ericv

 

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To all that, I would like to add that much of this steel from these ships might actually turn up on western operating tables and/or in western hospitals, a bit of neocolonialism.

As many of you probably know, ever since the atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons, the world's metal supply has been irradiated to a measurable degree.

These ships were sunk before these tests and are therefor one of the only currently obtainable sources of not so irradiated metals on the planet. Apparently, highly sought after for sensitive medical equipment.


(in reply to joey)
Post #: 6
RE: Chinese plundering WW2 wrecks - 9/6/2018 6:03:15 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 8729
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joey


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

So what are you going to do about it, besides be mad on the internet?

Edit - this comment was directed at OP.


This issue always pops up every couple of months and there's the usual deluge of outrage.

The countries where the salvagers/scavengers/pirates/whatever are based from couldn't care less because:

1. There's money to be made in it.
2. It's a tiny issue in the grand scheme of international politics.
3. Why would any politicans in South-East Asia decide to defend the sunken property of the imperial and colonial nations that are the cause of so many problems?

FWIW, I dislike the notion of sunken ships being a war-grave. It's not really: it's steel at the bottom of the ocean, any human remains are long dissolved now. There's an elegant practical solution to it all without the international outcry:

- mount an expedition and retrieve an artifact(s) from the ship (the ships bell is always a nice one).
- sell salvage rights with the condition that funds are dedicated to creating a memorial for the sunken ship
- have said artifact as centrepeice of the memorial

Everyone wins. There's the potential for commerical gain, there's something to remember the sunken vessal and the lost crew (as well as a tangible, phsyical memorial rather than open ocean) and the international pissing contest is stopped.

Sadly that seems to make too much sense to most people...



I like your proposal. It makes logical sense. But it is way too logical to ever be adopted in today's geopolitical environment.



I don't see why not - all of those actions can be taken unilaterally by the nation that "owns" the war grave.

(in reply to joey)
Post #: 7
RE: Chinese plundering WW2 wrecks - 9/6/2018 8:24:13 PM   
CommandoSolo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericv

To all that, I would like to add that much of this steel from these ships might actually turn up on western operating tables and/or in western hospitals, a bit of neocolonialism.

As many of you probably know, ever since the atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons, the world's metal supply has been irradiated to a measurable degree.

These ships were sunk before these tests and are therefor one of the only currently obtainable sources of not so irradiated metals on the planet. Apparently, highly sought after for sensitive medical equipment.





above is the real reason. un-nuked steel is worth all the money in the world. everyone needs un-nuked steel. you have no idea how much medical equipment and other stuff is made with it. it's sad that they destroy the sunken ships for it. Until they figure out something other than un-nuked steel, they will still be chopping up ships until they run out of ships. The other sad thing is that the people running the chopping operations don't care about anything except the steel so everything else, into the sea. Bodies to bolts, if it can't be use, down it goes. I wish they would just save the bones and such and place them in front of any embassy. They would do the rest.

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Post #: 8
RE: Chinese plundering WW2 wrecks - 9/7/2018 2:14:00 AM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 966
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

So what are you going to do about it, besides be mad on the internet?

Edit - this comment was directed at OP.


You're projecting; I made zero commentary on this story.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 9
RE: Chinese plundering WW2 wrecks - 9/7/2018 2:15:56 AM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 966
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericv

To all that, I would like to add that much of this steel from these ships might actually turn up on western operating tables and/or in western hospitals, a bit of neocolonialism.

As many of you probably know, ever since the atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons, the world's metal supply has been irradiated to a measurable degree.

These ships were sunk before these tests and are therefor one of the only currently obtainable sources of not so irradiated metals on the planet. Apparently, highly sought after for sensitive medical equipment.




Give the oxidation of the metals over 70+ years in a salt-water enviroment, how much of it is actually usable?

I've dove Truk and those ships after 50 years looked like they would snap if subjected to the slightest stress not to mention being lifted from the bottom floor.

(in reply to ericv)
Post #: 10
RE: Chinese plundering WW2 wrecks - 9/7/2018 6:07:11 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 13612
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericv

To all that, I would like to add that much of this steel from these ships might actually turn up on western operating tables and/or in western hospitals, a bit of neocolonialism.

As many of you probably know, ever since the atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons, the world's metal supply has been irradiated to a measurable degree.

These ships were sunk before these tests and are therefor one of the only currently obtainable sources of not so irradiated metals on the planet. Apparently, highly sought after for sensitive medical equipment.



As previously mentioned in this thread, human remains including bones dissolve in the sea water within a few years. Salt is not the only chemical in sea water. And heaven knows if there are tiny sea critters that can dissolve the bones to process the calcium into their own shells.

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(in reply to ericv)
Post #: 11
RE: Chinese plundering WW2 wrecks - 9/7/2018 6:16:28 AM   
ericv

 

Posts: 326
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: ericv

To all that, I would like to add that much of this steel from these ships might actually turn up on western operating tables and/or in western hospitals, a bit of neocolonialism.

As many of you probably know, ever since the atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons, the world's metal supply has been irradiated to a measurable degree.

These ships were sunk before these tests and are therefor one of the only currently obtainable sources of not so irradiated metals on the planet. Apparently, highly sought after for sensitive medical equipment.



As previously mentioned in this thread, human remains including bones dissolve in the sea water within a few years. Salt is not the only chemical in sea water. And heaven knows if there are tiny sea critters that can dissolve the bones to process the calcium into their own shells.



Yeah, I also don't believe much, if anything, remains of a person even after a short period in the water, let alone after decades.
To that, I personally am completely fine with the previous metioned idea from mind_messing and others: to raise the ship legally, make a memorial from an item and use the operation to make a bit of money for everyone.




(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 12
RE: Chinese plundering WW2 wrecks - 9/7/2018 9:30:16 AM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 6709
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: ericv

To all that, I would like to add that much of this steel from these ships might actually turn up on western operating tables and/or in western hospitals, a bit of neocolonialism.

As many of you probably know, ever since the atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons, the world's metal supply has been irradiated to a measurable degree.

These ships were sunk before these tests and are therefor one of the only currently obtainable sources of not so irradiated metals on the planet. Apparently, highly sought after for sensitive medical equipment.




Give the oxidation of the metals over 70+ years in a salt-water enviroment, how much of it is actually usable?

I've dove Truk and those ships after 50 years looked like they would snap if subjected to the slightest stress not to mention being lifted from the bottom floor.

True, but non-ferrous metals like brass don't decay.

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 13
RE: Chinese plundering WW2 wrecks - 9/7/2018 10:09:34 AM   
ericv

 

Posts: 326
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: ericv

To all that, I would like to add that much of this steel from these ships might actually turn up on western operating tables and/or in western hospitals, a bit of neocolonialism.

As many of you probably know, ever since the atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons, the world's metal supply has been irradiated to a measurable degree.

These ships were sunk before these tests and are therefor one of the only currently obtainable sources of not so irradiated metals on the planet. Apparently, highly sought after for sensitive medical equipment.




Give the oxidation of the metals over 70+ years in a salt-water enviroment, how much of it is actually usable?

I've dove Truk and those ships after 50 years looked like they would snap if subjected to the slightest stress not to mention being lifted from the bottom floor.

True, but non-ferrous metals like brass don't decay.


There are a lot of different processes at work in not so shallow water. Lots of processes either contribute or protect against the rust process.

Lack of oxygen can do both surprisingly. Aluminium for example can corrode a lot faster in oxygen deprived water because of the lack of a protective layer, which normally forms in oxygen rich environments.


Most interesting studies in this area are not accessible for free online in the scientific journals they are published in.
I did find a US Navy study, done specifically for corrosion of metals : http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/645481.pdf

results vary.



(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 14
RE: Chinese plundering WW2 wrecks - 9/7/2018 12:41:20 PM   
LeeChard

 

Posts: 1009
Joined: 9/12/2007
From: Michigan
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In the controversy over artifacts from the Titanic I agree with the side that believes we should bring them up
and place them in museums where we people who can't afford to go on an expedition to the site itself can see the
remnants of history.
Besides in another century or two there won't be much left but a big pile of rust.

(in reply to ericv)
Post #: 15
RE: Chinese plundering WW2 wrecks - 9/7/2018 1:48:00 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 966
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericv


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: ericv

To all that, I would like to add that much of this steel from these ships might actually turn up on western operating tables and/or in western hospitals, a bit of neocolonialism.

As many of you probably know, ever since the atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons, the world's metal supply has been irradiated to a measurable degree.

These ships were sunk before these tests and are therefor one of the only currently obtainable sources of not so irradiated metals on the planet. Apparently, highly sought after for sensitive medical equipment.




Give the oxidation of the metals over 70+ years in a salt-water enviroment, how much of it is actually usable?

I've dove Truk and those ships after 50 years looked like they would snap if subjected to the slightest stress not to mention being lifted from the bottom floor.

True, but non-ferrous metals like brass don't decay.


There are a lot of different processes at work in not so shallow water. Lots of processes either contribute or protect against the rust process.

Lack of oxygen can do both surprisingly. Aluminium for example can corrode a lot faster in oxygen deprived water because of the lack of a protective layer, which normally forms in oxygen rich environments.


Most interesting studies in this area are not accessible for free online in the scientific journals they are published in.
I did find a US Navy study, done specifically for corrosion of metals : http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/645481.pdf

results vary.





Ha! Thank you for the pdf. I will read it. Yes, I know that the deeper you go the less oxygen.

Take care.

(in reply to ericv)
Post #: 16
RE: Chinese plundering WW2 wrecks - 9/7/2018 11:51:28 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 2368
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LeeChard

In the controversy over artifacts from the Titanic I agree with the side that believes we should bring them up
and place them in museums where we people who can't afford to go on an expedition to the site itself can see the
remnants of history.
Besides in another century or two there won't be much left but a big pile of rust.


Amusingly enough it was reading in to the degradation of the Titanic wrecksite that solidified my attitude on issues like this. There's a big enough debris field to fill ten museums down there, I really don't see what the issue is with dives solely to retrieve artefacts beyond a suitable concern about it going to the private and not the public market.

Marine archaeology isn't like regular land based archaeology in that the conditions underwater put a limit on the time you have to collect artefacts. All the more reason to salvage.

(in reply to LeeChard)
Post #: 17
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