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RE: Balance discussion - 9/19/2018 7:02:09 AM   
mouse707

 

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quote:

I'm still in favor of a limited free deployment option


I think that even just some randomness in the initial soviet units' positions can be sufficient to prevent super Lvov pockets and their friends in turn 1. Experimented german players know exactly the position of each russian unit and how to exploit that. Maybe they even play with a 2nd computer opened on the russian T1.

If rear units are not exactly at the same place each game, it could be sufficient to prevent too optimized german T1

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Post #: 151
RE: Balance discussion - 9/19/2018 8:20:54 AM   
MarauderPL

 

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Its not a problem to air recon all the soviet positions right now, it won't be in the future. And what if a random positioning screws the Soviet player even more? Like allowing a reliable Minsk capture T1? Or herding additional units in the South?
I can imagine some comments in the forums then

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Post #: 152
RE: Balance discussion - 11/19/2018 5:38:38 AM   
Shalkai

 

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I'm only a casual/intermediate player of WitE, although I have many decades of experience with various Eastern Front games. After scanning through this thread, and comparing past games over my few years of playing different versions of WitE, a couple things pop out at me:
1. Playing Russians has gotten harder over last 2-3 years. I see this in my own GC game (playing against myself). Soviet units are slower to arrive, slower to dig in, and more fragile. EXP changes seem to be the biggest cause of second and third issues, from what I've read? OK, something to fix.
2. Playing Germans is hard, til you master a couple things - railhead building, blitzkrieg and pocketing, effective use of HQBU. Once that is learned, a 'good' German player has the upper hand in '41.
3. Past that, there are 'great' German players. Super-Lvov, port-hopping, whatever.
4. A game where a very skilled player on one side can't be countered with anything done by the other side needs some fixing.

I don't know if WitE is at that level. It sounds like we are at (in 41 GC):
beginner German vs AI = medium. Beginner Russian vs AI = easy.
beginner German PVP = hard. beginner Russian PVP = hard.
skilled German = easy. skilled Russian = hard, or very hard.

Balancing a game, especially one as complex as this, is a nightmare. It still needs to be done, and the devs still do it (/salute for all your hard work, Matrix!). I've seen a lot of exploits used and talked about in these forums, then removed from the game.

Another complementary thing to do is to handicap games between particular players. Simple house rules can do a lot, and the best of them (if simple) can be patched in later on. No Super-Lvov for example.

So, back to thoughts on balance discussion of things that can be coded. The +1 combat bonus option comes to mind as something to beef up inside the game - add a slider for how many turns it goes. Really strong German player? Add more months of +1.
Weather could be another area easy to add options without too much programming. Really strong German player? Add an extra turn of Mud at some random point in Fall 41 (could use in either Random or Historical weather). That'll wreak havoc with even well laid plans. Or add a 'Nasty Random Weather' option to the start menu.
More difficult, but probably historically justifiable, is putting in some movement point sinks/debuffs. General thought - moving into a hex that is very far away from starting friendly lines (6 hexes? 10?) has a chance of costing an unplanned extra MP. This would simulate bad maps, minor but important bridge blown up, local cadres putting up a roadblock that takes a half-day to clear...things like that. That would make things much harder for good Axis players, but wouldn't handicap beginners to the same extent - they don't drive as far per turn.


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Post #: 153
RE: Balance discussion - 11/19/2018 6:19:42 AM   
SparkleyTits

 

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I would say starting from beginners the game favours Soviets as they allow more mistakes which both sides will have alot of so it gives the Soviets more of a buffer to "learn by fire" and come out in better shape but honestly these games can go either way as everybody finds their footing

Interdimate games seem to be dependant on playstyles clashing aswell as mistakes more so than other skill levels and they can seem to go anyway causalities winds blow tbh
For example a Soviet who has not had any bad experiencs with brawling will favour that playstyle and will want to fight forward and goes up against an Axis who happens to be a good attack pather will achieve many pockets and the game will be easy for Axis but on the opposite side if you have an Axis who is great at logistics but not so good at attack pathing yet comes up against a Soviet who has a good grasp on retreat paths and understands the capabilities of Germans MP then that will find the game coming to a rather quick German stall
These examples of course compound the more extreme scales as there is everything in between too which aren't as clear cut but that is the best stab I can give of my opinion

At higher level games one critical mistakes means that under the right circumstances it's over for all intent and purposes and a lot of the mistakes considered critical that can happen early in th way are FAR easier for the Soviets to catch themselves experiencing comparative to what the Axis can mess up in a similar regard as it's almost never going to happen where the Axis make a mistake big enough in 41 to destroy them for the rest of the war etc
This doesn't mean Axis are OP as honestly although others will say otherwise they simply aren't but they are definitely advantageous at high level as the Soviets have to defend from 300 angles to stop crumbling in either one or a series of quick knock out blows that can end the game and that is absolutely bloody hard going and that is also while having to defend from 300 more blows that will either slowly or quickly eat away at you (definitely not easy)

That leads to the problem of the absolute herculean task of balancing out higher level games without completely messing up a massive percentage of the playerbase heavily in Soviet favour as only a very small percentage are technically high skill level etc

quote:

More difficult, but probably historically justifiable, is putting in some movement point sinks/debuffs. General thought - moving into a hex that is very far away from starting friendly lines (6 hexes? 10?) has a chance of costing an unplanned extra MP. This would simulate bad maps, minor but important bridge blown up, local cadres putting up a roadblock that takes a half-day to clear...things like that. That would make things much harder for good Axis players, but wouldn't handicap beginners to the same extent - they don't drive as far per turn.


I love these kinds of ideas where diminishing returns force more dynamic choice, risk and reward over a more binary options of choices like "I've opened the way do I go left or right now" which is boring imo comparatively, great idea man!

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Post #: 154
RE: Balance discussion - 11/19/2018 7:09:18 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 12/28/2018 6:17:56 PM >


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Post #: 155
RE: Balance discussion - 11/20/2018 12:41:13 AM   
56ajax


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Against a very good Axis player the game can be lost in the first few turns. The Axis can now move so quickly that the Soviets must hold the Axis using existing units as of 22nd June, plus those in the reinforcements schedule that come fully formed or with adequate experience or morale, until the Mud comes.

Those units that are rebuilt will not be of much value in this period. (Fixing the Experience 'defect' may alleviate this).

If the Axis creates large pockets it is not a question of whether they can be re-opened but whether any units can be permanently rescued; usually none.

Thus I have found that the current post T1 Soviet Army is too small and the numbers don't substantially increase until after Leningrad, Moscow, Rostov have fallen.

For consideration

1. Fix Experience
2. Have an option to unfreeze units on T1
3. Increase Soviet Admin points to allow for the manual creation of units, or decrease the cost of creation (not Forts), or introduce a new unit like a Peoples Militia Brigade that can be created at low cost and auto disbands on 1st Dec.
4. Increase manpower

Some of these can be done via the editor so perhaps we need a Balanced Scenario.



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Post #: 156
RE: Balance discussion - 11/20/2018 1:12:58 AM   
thedoctorking


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Is there any way to modify Soviet manpower production in the game options? If their manpower could be set to 125% or so, that would be about right.

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RE: Balance discussion - 11/20/2018 3:46:48 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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RE: Balance discussion - 11/20/2018 5:43:43 AM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

Is there any way to modify Soviet manpower production in the game options? If their manpower could be set to 125% or so, that would be about right.

Not that I can see. You can increase the rate at which units get replacements, increase rail capacity, increase Admin points but not manpower.

Thats why a Balanced Scenario may be the way to go.

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Post #: 159
RE: Balance discussion - 11/20/2018 7:54:19 AM   
MarauderPL

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Come on, someone is really trying to keep the Soviet player down or is this a cruel joke.


You are doing well enough, Stalin is not afraid of losing Moscow, he fears for his datcha (summer house) on the Black Sea coast ;)

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RE: Balance discussion - 11/20/2018 12:26:46 PM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

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Has anyone tried adjusting the difficulty settings? My understanding is that these allow you to a) increase soviet morale b) speed up soviet digging and c) reduce axis logistics capabilities. Could this be a way of not only improving overall balance but also enabling two players of differing abilities to 'handicap' their game so that it has more prospect of lasting long term?

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RE: Balance discussion - 11/20/2018 1:08:02 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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RE: Balance discussion - 11/20/2018 5:44:21 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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Adding manpower production is a 1 min Thing in the editor. Adding Manpower to An offmap location will have the desired effect.



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RE: Balance discussion - 11/21/2018 7:12:16 AM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Adding manpower production is a 1 min Thing in the editor. Adding Manpower to An offmap location will have the desired effect.



And I think you can start the game with a large number as disabled.

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Post #: 164
RE: Balance discussion - 11/22/2018 9:58:20 PM   
thedoctorking


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Maybe we should try to come up with a balanced scenario. Mess with the Russian deployment a little bit to increase the difficulty of the bigger pockets (Lvov and super-Lvov are both bigger than the historical German accomplishments in that sector) and increase Russian manpower production to historical levels. Might want to increase German manpower production in the later years as well.

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Post #: 165
RE: Balance discussion - 11/22/2018 11:14:51 PM   
chaos45

 

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they did increase German manpower production in the later years was several patches ago...but not many games have really made it past 1941 lately due to the balance issues in 1941.

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RE: Balance discussion - 11/23/2018 3:27:52 AM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

Maybe we should try to come up with a balanced scenario. Mess with the Russian deployment a little bit to increase the difficulty of the bigger pockets (Lvov and super-Lvov are both bigger than the historical German accomplishments in that sector) and increase Russian manpower production to historical levels. Might want to increase German manpower production in the later years as well.

Size of pockets can be restricted by House Rules but we should unfreeze those units that become active after they are pocketed.

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If a fart can get past 2 bum cheeks, undies and pants then I don't think a face mask will stop the virus. Keep safe everyone.

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Post #: 167
RE: Balance discussion - 11/23/2018 12:20:07 PM   
timmyab

 

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quote:

Mess with the Russian deployment a little bit to increase the difficulty of the bigger pockets

I think that's a good idea. It would be a simple task to prevent the super Lvov and even the plain old Lvov could be made difficult with the prospect of less Soviet units pocketed.

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Post #: 168
RE: Balance discussion - 11/23/2018 5:33:57 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

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I tried to find a latest AARs in those RKKA hold a "historical line" (Sevastopol-Rostov-Voroshilovgrad-Tula-Moscow-Leningrad) on 1 December,1941(before blizzard starts in the game). It's boring and still unsuccessfull.

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RE: Balance discussion - 11/25/2018 3:26:45 AM   
thedoctorking


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

I tried to find a latest AARs in those RKKA hold a "historical line" (Sevastopol-Rostov-Voroshilovgrad-Tula-Moscow-Leningrad) on 1 December,1941(before blizzard starts in the game). It's boring and still unsuccessfull.

Try our Connect4 AAR. We're having a blast, don't know about the Axis

Turn 17, we hold Sevastopol, Stalino, Kharkov, Orel, Moscow, Leningrad. So slightly better than historical.

< Message edited by thedoctorking -- 11/25/2018 3:27:46 AM >

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RE: Balance discussion - 11/25/2018 3:56:30 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

I tried to find a latest AARs in those RKKA hold a "historical line" (Sevastopol-Rostov-Voroshilovgrad-Tula-Moscow-Leningrad) on 1 December,1941(before blizzard starts in the game). It's boring and still unsuccessfull.

Try our Connect4 AAR. We're having a blast, don't know about the Axis

Turn 17, we hold Sevastopol, Stalino, Kharkov, Orel, Moscow, Leningrad. So slightly better than historical.

But there is last map about T10, also it's a random weather.

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RE: Balance discussion - 11/25/2018 2:16:12 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

Try our Connect4 AAR. We're having a blast, don't know about the Axis

Turn 17, we hold Sevastopol, Stalino, Kharkov, Orel, Moscow, Leningrad. So slightly better than historical.


Well I would say it is fun. I guess it depends on if your enjoyment is from being the "winner" or from having interesting situations though.

The Connect 4 team game was set up for beginners as ground commanders - and from what I have seen elsewhere is fairly typical. You will not see it usually in AARs because beginners do not usually do AARs. But if you do go back in the AAR list there are a few with the same results.

I would repeat what I have said elsewhere. 90% of games are by players who never reach these goals. 90% of players are new to the game. Many are so put off at the difficulty of playing Axis they never come back again. So making it more difficult will close the gateway to more players joining later on. The AARs you see are typically of the more experienced who have a better grasp of the game mechanics. The balance discussion as I understand it really relates to that group.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 11/25/2018 7:14:49 PM >

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RE: Balance discussion - 11/25/2018 6:48:53 PM   
chaos45

 

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ya the connect four game where a German player didn't commit an entire army due to thinking the Soviets could possibly counter-attack lol.....

Not exactly a good example of game balance, as no German player that has played the game before will leave an army uncommitted for any length of time in 1941 as after a game or two they will quickly realize the Soviets have no ability to counterattack at anything more than an exposed regiment or extremely exposed division that they can get several stacks on to get a push back. Even then the Soviets will take so many losses from that 1 small attack that the next turn the Germans can easily decimate all those formations--as they will take 1k+ losses and usually massive amounts more than that damaged and disrupted which makes them easy wins on the German turn.

Not trying to be offensive but balance is designed around decently competent play by both sides based on the games rules and design.

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RE: Balance discussion - 11/25/2018 7:54:28 PM   
Neogodhobo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

ya the connect four game where a German player didn't commit an entire army due to thinking the Soviets could possibly counter-attack lol.....

Not exactly a good example of game balance, as no German player that has played the game before will leave an army uncommitted for any length of time in 1941 as after a game or two they will quickly realize the Soviets have no ability to counterattack at anything more than an exposed regiment or extremely exposed division that they can get several stacks on to get a push back. Even then the Soviets will take so many losses from that 1 small attack that the next turn the Germans can easily decimate all those formations--as they will take 1k+ losses and usually massive amounts more than that damaged and disrupted which makes them easy wins on the German turn.

Not trying to be offensive but balance is designed around decently competent play by both sides based on the games rules and design.


Balance... What is balance in a war game... Utter bullshit. War isn't balanced, war is pitting a hundreds of officers against each others hoping that yours are going to be better than the others.

How boring would a game be if you could only fight against people of your own caliber. Especially a Wargame simulator.

We started the 2by3+ game with experienced players in the axis side and complete newbies in the Soviet side. Just to make it more historical. Where was the balance in that ? There wasnt any. And it is extremely fun like this, we got destroyed ( but still fighting valiantly ).

I hate balance. Balance isn't fun. Balance is for people who prefer playing in their own safety bubble. Make sure there isn't any surprise. Making sure, they wouldn't ever fight against a person better than they are, or someone who has more knowledge than they do.

Is this really a wargame simulator ? or is this a hand holder simulator ?


One thing I know for sure, is that the more balance the game is, the more boring it is.

Exhibit A : "ya the connect four game where a German player didn't commit an entire army due to thinking the Soviets could possibly counter-attack lol....."

Well I bet no one expected that to happened. Bringing originality and new things to the plate, instead of the same old boring tactic everyone always use. It brings something that is out of the box. If your only goal in playing, is to crush your opponent. Then, please, play the conventional boring way. If your goal is to have fun and try new things, then play an unbalance game.

As far as Im concerned, war isn't balanced, never was. Dont know why we should try to put balance into a Wargame simulator.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking
Try our Connect4 AAR. We're having a blast, don't know about the Axis

Turn 17, we hold Sevastopol, Stalino, Kharkov, Orel, Moscow, Leningrad. So slightly better than historical.



And the connect 4 game is fricken awesome, Im loving playing it. Trying new tactics in order to surprise my opponent ( wich ended in total failure but I think I would have made better if I have had access to my armies from turn 1 )

I cant speak for others, but Im having a blast in the C4 game. And playing against my own general ( from another game ) is pretty cool too. The Soviets are doing very good, and I cant wait for revenge in the summer of 42. I cant wait to fight a desperate battle in the summer of 45. I cant wait to decide, which divisions to sacrifice in fortress cities.

This game in massive multiplayer, is just fricken awesome. Its too bad there is some people out there who try to ruin it for others. Who try to talk **** about it and make it look scary to newcomers who would want to try to join such games. It just destroy the community little by little.

Complaining leads to nothing. The best way is to make due with what we have.


Okay so there is balance problems in the game apparently ? So ****ing what. Tell your mommy to hold your hand and keep pushing trough the mud. Kill as many Germans/soviets while your at it. Of course you can write to the developers and complaint about it. Or, you can create your own game. But complaining about it to the players is such a huge waste of time, its a downer for everyone on top of it.


Games cant be perfect, never gonna happen, there will always be someone who thinks this is unbalance, and that is unbalance, and, maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong, maybe we could do this, or maybe we could do that. Instead of playing the game and having fun with what we are lucky enough to get, we could spend 3 years arguing and mopping around like headless ducks in a storm.

Or we could just start to have some ****ing fun. Forget about the technicalities, and play the game to have fun, rather than trying to be number one. Rather than trying to find excuses about why people leave, why people dont want to join new games.

You people really suck when it comes down to recruiting people. How the hell do you want people to have fun and wanting to join new games when all you guys do is complaint. Why dont you uninstall the game and leave the happy campers to start great fires amidst the rain ?

I was at work the other day ( work in the middle of the forest in the middle of ****ing nowhere), and I wanted to make a fire, but it started to snow, and snow, and snow. The next morning, there was so much snow I could barely walk around. And we were in September. It was unseen before, one could call it... pretty unbalanced. Of course I could have just stay inside and whine about how that wouldn't usually happen, about how the weather is ****ed up, about how not normal it is. My wife did exactly just that. And I said to myself, who gives a **** about the snow, I can still make a fire. I want outside and I threw the snow out of my fire pit, and I made a goddamn fire that went so far up in the sky, I was worried the wood would burn down.

My wife came out of the cabin and joined me and we cooked breakfast outside in the snow.
Now, we can all sit around in the cabin and whine about the unbalanced things of life. Or we can just go outside and play the goddamn game in the snow.

My wife was complaining inside that we couldnt do anything today... I went out and made this :




She then joined me and we had lots of fun :




< Message edited by Neogodhobo -- 11/25/2018 8:23:39 PM >


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RE: Balance discussion - 11/25/2018 8:14:57 PM   
Neogodhobo


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.

< Message edited by Neogodhobo -- 11/25/2018 8:27:04 PM >


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RE: Balance discussion - 11/25/2018 8:29:17 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

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What is balance in wargames?
It's means each side has chances to performs better than historically. Let's look at these chances in the current patch reallity.
Let our "check-line" will be historical front-line on 1 Dec 1941. It's a Sevastopol-Rostov-Voroshilovgrad-Tula-Moscow-Leningrad(all these objectives on this date are under Soviet control).
In 1941 before blizzard debuff can Germans performs better than historically? Yes, look in AAR section there are many examples of it.
Can Soviet side performs better (or even similar - hold line,no more)before blizzard debuff? Correct answer is NO.

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RE: Balance discussion - 11/25/2018 9:10:52 PM   
Neogodhobo


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So then you choose to become a complainer that will sit all winter inside. Good for you, Il choose to play outside. We could whine and complaint all year long about video games. You can choose not to play the game and spend your time whining if you want.

I prefer spending my time playing, rather than complaining. To each its own I guess.

< Message edited by Neogodhobo -- 11/25/2018 9:18:26 PM >


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RE: Balance discussion - 11/25/2018 9:36:54 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

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Neogodhobo, I don't care about what are you choose ever if your best argument is only " **** ".

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RE: Balance discussion - 11/25/2018 10:01:41 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 12/28/2018 6:19:02 PM >


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RE: Balance discussion - 11/25/2018 10:11:26 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 12/28/2018 6:19:16 PM >


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