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Best German Railway Paths. - 8/15/2018 9:03:58 PM   
Champagne


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I've read most of the posted material on the game, including the map that someone was kind enough to post. That map suggested some railway paths that included a concentration of RR units on the north side of the map. Also suggested was a railroad move of the AGS RR unit to Romanian territory after building one hex of RR near Lvov.

I've just spent many hours screwing up a Bitter End grand campaign as the Axis vs the AI.

I'm not asking anyone to give up any trade secrets. I'm playing against the Soviet AI. Given those parameters, I'd like any and all thoughts with regard to paving the best RR paths for the Axis player vs the AI.

Thanks.



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RE: Best German Railway Paths. - 8/15/2018 11:34:30 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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The AI is not very smart, if you want a good game against it, start repairing the rail where the FBDs already are, with per one unit per railhead. On this way you restrict your own logistics a bit compared to the approaches prefered in multiplayer, so the AI is more competitive.

If your aim is to minmax the RR construction, you can go with what is shown in the library of WitE resources thread (see the signature) in the Center-North. Double-teaming instead of triple teaming should give only slightly worse results as well, leaving one FBD to build from Brest-Litovsk if you like to push in the southern center as well.

In the South, there is even more potential than shown on the map (credits go to Joneleth for the new way), but I have not yet found the time to update the map.

Hope that helps.

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RE: Best German Railway Paths. - 8/16/2018 1:21:12 AM   
Champagne


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Yes! It is your map that I studied and commented on. Thanks for your reply! Could you explain it further, just a bit, Ewald?

You have three FBD up North and none in the Center?

What do you mean by Freikampfen? Free Fighters?

With regard to the South, I think maybe the game has been updated since you made the map. Do any of these updates change your recommendation to Move the FBD by train to the Romanian territory? Thanks.

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RE: Best German Railway Paths. - 8/16/2018 8:19:54 AM   
EwaldvonKleist


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In the North, there is the so called "Baltic rail zone". By default, you can only repair 4 hexagons of a rail line in row, but in the Baltic rail zone, the limit is 6. In addition, the repair cost for a damaged rail hexagon is 1, not 3 as everywhere else on the map.
The idea is to concentrate 3 FBDs in the Center-North to take advantage of the Baltic rail zone to build the rail as quickly east as possible, at the cost of having no loops for partisan security initially and of leaving the area between Minsk and the Pripyat in poor supply, because there is no rail line from Brest-Litovsk. It is a trade off, your rail head will be more quickly able to support a push against Leningrad and Moscow taking a more Northern route through Velikie Lukie/Vitebsk, but the Gomel area will be a logistical black hole for some time.

"Freikämpfen" means "clear the hexagons of enemy units", it is necessary because it allows use of the otherwise blocked rail line directly on the border, shortening the path for the Brest-Litovsk-FBD North to their destination.
When started making the map, I didn't have in mind that it will be uploaded eventually, so I used German words. Should be edited.

What is shown on the map in the South is still correct, railing the FBD to Rumania is the way to go, because you can start way more east on that way. In a recent version, a Rumanian FBD has been introduced which gives you a little boost there, but it does not change the overall strategy.

With "more potential" I mean a rather complex way to use special port rules to repair hexagons not connected to the main net in advance. To be honest I think it will patched out once it is used, nevertheless I hope to find the time to update the map over the next week.



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RE: Best German Railway Paths. - 8/16/2018 3:21:28 PM   
Champagne


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Ganz Ausgezeichnet! Danke Sehr!

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RE: Best German Railway Paths. - 8/18/2018 12:19:38 AM   
brucemo

 

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You know about the map in the resource library.

I'd like to add that the unit "1st Rum. Railroad Command" is not accounted for by that document, and would allow faster progress and alternatives in the south.

HLYA takes a different route in the north in his "VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination)" AAR and you may wish to consider that. He sends two lines east in the north, supported by three FBD's and only goes toward Leningrad once he's taken the land bridge. Figuring him out is like reading The DaVinci Code though. I think that's fun but you might not.

I am in the same boat you are in, in that I'm trying to smash the AI flat. When I see routes I see people trying to deceive humans as to their intent, and trying to support conquest of an objective that will be heavily defended.

Against the AI you can go where you will, I think, and maybe it becomes a matter of how to get more in the center and south than you otherwise would, so maybe something that wouldn't make as much sense against humans would work, because you might get further before the weather turns.

In the south, railroad repair can be predicted to be your only limiting factor for a while, for example.

I just do what people do in player versus player though.

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RE: Best German Railway Paths. - 8/18/2018 12:49:09 AM   
thedoctorking


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How is it advantageous to have more than one FBD on a rail line? Since you can only go four hexes forward from your railhead outside the Baltic zone?

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RE: Best German Railway Paths. - 8/18/2018 10:24:02 AM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

How is it advantageous to have more than one FBD on a rail line? Since you can only go four hexes forward from your railhead outside the Baltic zone?



It is only four in a straight line - I have done up to seven in curved sections of rail line. Plus one FBD will often not be able to convert four on its own in bad terrain - hence why you need to double up.

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RE: Best German Railway Paths. - 8/18/2018 7:23:26 PM   
Champagne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

How is it advantageous to have more than one FBD on a rail line? Since you can only go four hexes forward from your railhead outside the Baltic zone?



I am trying to get smarter with regard to this topic and share you interest in the answer to your question.



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RE: Best German Railway Paths. - 8/20/2018 11:21:54 PM   
brucemo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

How is it advantageous to have more than one FBD on a rail line? Since you can only go four hexes forward from your railhead outside the Baltic zone?


The German FBD's have 16 MP's. It takes minimum 1 to move onto a hex, and 3 to convert. So move-convert is 4. You can do that 4 times in a turn. If you cross a river or go through a swamp you will lose >= 1 MP and can only do 3 hexes. If another FBD is nearby you can do 4 again and potentially more if there is a corner.

This is something that a min-maxxer could plan really well I'd think. There would be no need to have 2 on a line if there is no bad terrain, but you might want to come back in the nick of time later.

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RE: Best German Railway Paths. - 8/21/2018 2:30:14 PM   
No idea

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

How is it advantageous to have more than one FBD on a rail line? Since you can only go four hexes forward from your railhead outside the Baltic zone?


The four hexes are counted not following the rails, but counting in straight line, so if the rail makes turns you can still convert rails with a second FBD. This is why you can turn the baltic rails into your own really fast.

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RE: Best German Railway Paths. - 8/22/2018 7:03:48 AM   
brucemo

 

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Since we're talking about rail paths, I don't understand this business of being able to get extra when the track bends. Yeah, I've seen it, I understand the idea, but it doesn't always work.

As an example, in my game 93,94 is converted to axis. This is the rail next, East of the river, 7 hexes West of Dnepropetrovsk. There is a rail hex east of that, then dip down to the southeast, then east two, then dip up to the northeast.

94,94 is where the FBD's start, and I can convert the four hexes starting there. But the last hex, where you dip up to the northeast, I cannot convert, even though it is 97,94, which is 4 hexes from 93,94.

I can convert 96,96, yes. but not 97,94, but for that matter I cannot convert 95,97 either.

Any ideas what is going on with this?

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RE: Best German Railway Paths. - 8/22/2018 10:19:39 AM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brucemo

Since we're talking about rail paths, I don't understand this business of being able to get extra when the track bends. Yeah, I've seen it, I understand the idea, but it doesn't always work.

As an example, in my game 93,94 is converted to axis. This is the rail next, East of the river, 7 hexes West of Dnepropetrovsk. There is a rail hex east of that, then dip down to the southeast, then east two, then dip up to the northeast.

94,94 is where the FBD's start, and I can convert the four hexes starting there. But the last hex, where you dip up to the northeast, I cannot convert, even though it is 97,94, which is 4 hexes from 93,94.

I can convert 96,96, yes. but not 97,94, but for that matter I cannot convert 95,97 either.

Any ideas what is going on with this?


Did you FBDs have RRV and MPs? Do you have a screenshot?

There are actually a few known examples where it does not work and which have been reported as bugs earlier in these forums - but having repaired in that area that way before I have not noticed that problem there myself.

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RE: Best German Railway Paths. - 8/22/2018 11:00:06 PM   
beender


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Never quite understand when FBDs are willing to work. Recently I got my railway in north cut off by Galex. Yet surprisingly I find the FBD in the front could still repair one hex or two. Curious but I won't complain about it

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RE: Best German Railway Paths. - 8/23/2018 7:33:06 AM   
brucemo

 

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I uploaded an image along with this post but I don't know how it will appear.

The hex with the arrow pointing to it is converted. That's the railhead.

I used the Romanian and German FBD's to convert rail headed east from there. The German FBD has 6 MP left (it's FBD 1, it's healthy, it hasn't had any attachments added, and it hasn't been in combat).

It cannot convert the hex it's standing on. It can convert the hex two SW from where it is. By my calculations all of these are 4 hexes from the railhead.




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RE: Best German Railway Paths. - 8/23/2018 7:39:27 AM   
VigaBrand

 

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You must count the rail hexes from the railhead. The hex where you standing has a distance of four railhexes.
The other hex had a distant of three railhexes because you could go the shorter path.

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RE: Best German Railway Paths. - 8/23/2018 11:20:48 PM   
brucemo

 

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It would have let me do this if there had been rail straight from the arrow hex to the hex where the unit is.

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RE: Best German Railway Paths. - 8/24/2018 9:58:59 AM   
Telemecus


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Just to confirm it as a bug for developers can you show the screenshot of the railhead being a repaired rail hex (i.e. green circled)

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RE: Best German Railway Paths. - 8/24/2018 7:08:43 PM   
Aufklaerungs

 

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Might be the river hex has coding for crossing permissions, movement point adders and combat modifiers that is negating/overriding the conversion permission.

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RE: Best German Railway Paths. - 8/27/2018 10:07:11 PM   
brucemo

 

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I figured out what you wanted and it's reasonable.

I reconstructed this, meaning that both images were created by loading that game turn and then moving the FBD's. If there are any differences in other unit placement, etc., they are explained by that.

The Romanian counter has 0-3 on it and the German counter has 0-6.

The unit starts with 15 RRV and is at 13 as you see it on the map, if this explains this. Next turn it's back up to 15.

Both FBD's start out one hex east of the railhead hex and it doesn't matter which one I try to do the last hex with. I can get there with 3+ MP's in both cases but in neither case can I repair the rail there.




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< Message edited by brucemo -- 8/28/2018 5:31:49 AM >

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