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How deep can MAD detect a sub?

 
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How deep can MAD detect a sub? - 8/7/2018 11:53:01 AM   
DWReese

 

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How deep can MAD detect a sub? The reason that I ask is I recently had one detect a sub at 984 feet. Is that accurate? Can anyone advise the limits to the depth, or does it even have a limit?

Thanks

Doug
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RE: How deep can MAD detect a sub? - 8/7/2018 4:59:29 PM   
[BSM]Roby7979


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are u sure? detect at 984ft from Sonar type MAD?
MAD is an instrument used to detect minute variations in the Earth's magnetic field,the MAD sensor is placed at the end of a boom or on a towed aerodynamic device and so the submarine must be very near the aircraft's position and close to the sea surface for detection of the anomaly.
.

(in reply to DWReese)
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RE: How deep can MAD detect a sub? - 8/7/2018 6:37:57 PM   
DWReese

 

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Yes, I am sure that it was at 984 feet and from MAD.

An LA-class sub was initially "located" by a Russian surface vessel at 11 miles.
The LA-class sub fired torps at the Russian.
The Russian fired back with a long-range missile/torpedo which sent the sub running off at full speed.
The Russian ship turned and was also running full speed in the opposite direction to avoid the US torps.
The Russian ship could not have been the one to maintained contact with the sub at that speed.
When the firing began, the Russian did launch a helo that responded to the area to search for the sub.
The helo was directly over where the sub was, and it showed a detection of the sub that was current via MAD.
The sub was at 984 feet deep and it indicated that the helo's MAD sonar detected it.
Hence, that is why I asked how deep can MAD detect a sub?
I wouldn't think that it could do that from 984 feet deep, but what do I know?
The helo definitely had the MAD contact on a sub, and the sub was at 984 feet.

If this is normal, then I won't bother trying to replicate it
If it isn't, then I do so.
Please advise what you think.
FWIW, the battle occurred in the western portion of the Med.

Doug

(in reply to [BSM]Roby7979)
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RE: How deep can MAD detect a sub? - 8/7/2018 11:42:06 PM   
kevinkins


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Hey Doug. A friend of mine (PhD in math) conducted ASW for the USN late cold war. I will ask him about the question of depth. I don't expect an exact answer since there are a lot of factors and secrecy abounds related to ASW. Here is a discussion I found:

https://www.quora.com/How-does-the-P-8-Poseidon-detect-submarines-from-the-air-as-it-doesnt-have-MAD-How-do-they-know-whether-the-detected-submarine-is-hostile

and a technical paper:

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/fun/part09.htm

Your observation that the helo was right over head makes sense given MAD range limitations. The Quora thread mentions 1500 feet. Not sure if that is exactly correct or not.

Kevin

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RE: How deep can MAD detect a sub? - 8/8/2018 2:04:53 AM   
DWReese

 

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Kevin,

Thanks for the info. The paper stated,

quote:

The function, then, of airborne MAD equipment is to detect the submarine-caused anomaly in the earth's magnetic field. Slant detection ranges are on the order of 500 meters from the sensor. The depth at which a submarine can be detected is a function both of the size of the submarine and how close the sensor is flown to the surface of the water.
quote:



The searching a/c was the helo, and it was only 100 or 150 feet (IIRC) directly over the sub. So, the distance from the helo to the sub would have been a little less than 1100 feet which, of course, is less than 500 meters.

So, it would appear that the game has once again, nailed it. What a nice treat to see something like that.

The one paper did say that MAD isn't used very much, but I was playing around with Cold War platforms, so it was definitely in vogue then. As a matter of fact, the MAD did just fine.

If you want some fun, try to approach and kill a Udaloy. The sub will detect the Udaloy first, but the Udaloy will detect the sub as it tries to get close enough to launch its torpedoes. The Udaloy's SSN-14 rocket/torpedo has a real nice stand off range. The rocket drops the torpedo right on top of the sub, and the sub spends the rest of its time trying to (unsuccessfully I might add) keep from getting killed. In the mean time the Udaloy races away from area at full speed, outrunning the torps. Making matters worse, the Udaloy launches its helo which essentially sits on top of the sub (using its MAD sensor) to report every one of the sub's movements. It's a very difficult situation to win for the sub.

Thanks again for your help.

Doug




< Message edited by DWReese -- 8/8/2018 2:06:53 AM >

(in reply to kevinkins)
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RE: How deep can MAD detect a sub? - 8/8/2018 9:32:15 PM   
SeaQueen


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quote:

The one paper did say that MAD isn't used very much, but I was playing around with Cold War platforms, so it was definitely in vogue then. As a matter of fact, the MAD did just fine.


MAD was more of a localization thing on account of its short range. These days with the P-8 they don't expect it to be very useful because the goal was to conduct ASW at high altitude. Since the P-8 is a jet, it's more fuel efficient up high. There's a lot of advantages to being up high as well, including having a radio LOS to more buoys which allows them to monitor a wider area. Furthermore with the HAAWC they don't have to descend to low altitude in order to drop a torpedo, the HAAWC will just glide to the desired coordinates and drop it without the aircraft. The only remaining problem is whether or not they can localize and classify their target well enough using sonobuoys alone to have a good Pk with a torpedo. Apparently the US Navy thinks it can while the Indian Navy disagrees (hence their P-8s) have MAD installed.

(in reply to DWReese)
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RE: How deep can MAD detect a sub? - 8/8/2018 9:41:41 PM   
DWReese

 

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Thanks for the response.

I can see from playing the game that MAD can be useful as the helo was able to stay right on top of the sub, following it, while the ship launched those SS-N-14s (Silex) at it from a safe distance. I was impressed with how well the AI responded to the situation.

Additionally, I had no idea that MAD would be able to function in such deep water. I really thought that I would be able to dive deep, and then branch off into another direction without the helo being able to know which direction that I went. Wrong. It stayed directly overhead.

While the current US Navy may think otherwise, I can definitely see a need for the use of MAD in 1994. It worked great. <g> I hate that SS-N-14, the Silex.

Thanks again for the info.

Doug

(in reply to SeaQueen)
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RE: How deep can MAD detect a sub? - 8/11/2018 2:44:24 AM   
SeaQueen


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quote:

While the current US Navy may think otherwise, I can definitely see a need for the use of MAD in 1994. It worked great. <g> I hate that SS-N-14, the Silex.


Nobody is saying it didn't work, it's just that it's not the preferred way of doing things these days. With P-3s operating at low altitude MAD made a lot of sense. These days, by the time you've descended to try to localize a contact with MAD in a P-8, your search area is so large that it's unlikely to occur.

(in reply to DWReese)
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RE: How deep can MAD detect a sub? - 8/11/2018 3:26:07 AM   
DWReese

 

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Thanks. I got it.

It all worked fine. I was just amazed that it could detect a sub that deep. That's why I asked that question. I was stuck in the 1994 scenario, so MAD was obviously a sensor of choice. While it didn't deliver the depth of the sub, it certainly was able to point out exactly where it was, and its direction.

Thanks for your help.

Doug

(in reply to SeaQueen)
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