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Unit Experience gain not working - 8/5/2018 1:15:30 PM   
chaos45

 

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Just did some test for German and Soviet units.

Units over 15 hexes to the rear are only gaining 1 EXP per turn even when under the best commanders parked right next to the HQ.

Pretty sure this is not working as its supposed to.

As my understanding is a unit just gets 1 exp per turn up to NM just for existing- on refit, rested, over 15 hexes, subject to command rolls could gain more is how I understood the rules in previous patches of the game.

So this appears to be yet another issue that has crept or been added into the game in recent patches, but I could swear someone mentioned this like 6+ months ago.

This is a huge drawback for 1941 soviets, as it basically means you have no capability to get all those fresh units to even near NM before you have to throw them into the line. I was wondering why Soviet CV in 1941 never seemed to increase.

This needs fixed ASAP.

< Message edited by chaos45 -- 8/5/2018 1:16:15 PM >
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RE: Unit Experience gain not working - 8/5/2018 6:23:17 PM   
morvael


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IMHO unit gain experience mostly from combat, there is a hidden variable for recent battle experience that is translated to visible experience. Without that, experience doesn't grow quickly. I think experience/morale gain was changed only slightly (if ever) in all the 1.08-1.11 patches. I will look at this, to see what happened with the rules as written in 9.3.1.

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RE: Unit Experience gain not working - 8/6/2018 3:31:04 AM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Just did some test for German and Soviet units.

Units over 15 hexes to the rear are only gaining 1 EXP per turn even when under the best commanders parked right next to the HQ.

Pretty sure this is not working as its supposed to.

As my understanding is a unit just gets 1 exp per turn up to NM just for existing- on refit, rested, over 15 hexes, subject to command rolls could gain more is how I understood the rules in previous patches of the game.

So this appears to be yet another issue that has crept or been added into the game in recent patches, but I could swear someone mentioned this like 6+ months ago.

This is a huge drawback for 1941 soviets, as it basically means you have no capability to get all those fresh units to even near NM before you have to throw them into the line. I was wondering why Soviet CV in 1941 never seemed to increase.

This needs fixed ASAP.


That was probably me.

Originally you could gain upto max 5 points if well positioned/supplied etc.

But this was changed in 1.05.18?, imo, to a misunderstanding. Units with morale less than have half NM now gained three points instead of the automatic 1, which was implemented as units morale over half NM now can only ever gain 1 exp point.

Thus it takes 6 months to build new Soviet units experience to 45.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4400824&mpage=1&key=experience�


< Message edited by 56ajax -- 8/6/2018 3:33:08 AM >


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RE: Unit Experience gain not working - 8/6/2018 7:56:25 AM   
chaos45

 

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Morvael- the issue is with all the Soviet nerfs and German buffs you guys have created a massive snowball that good German players can abuse and now make the 1941 game basically auto win.


You guys made the Germans much much fast since around patch .07. Also as predicted german players that play alot have perfected the opening to basically eliminate all soviet forces in the south including the stavka reserve mech corps south to odessa on T1/2.

As the soviet romanian border forces can't run fast enough to evade the T2 german panzer sweep south esp if you get bad random rolls for MP.

Then on top of that at some point you nerfed Soviet experience gain to a max of 1 per turn even for units at or below NM(used to be 3-5 rested on refit in the rear if I remember right up to NM) and even soviet sapper regiments. Talk to veteran Soviet players- you guys have made the game unplayable for the soviets without the +1 bonus in 1941 and even then its iffy if the german player knows the game.

With the German opening being so much better than historical and the bonus speed you have given the germans the Soviet player will have to rely on new formations and if these new formations can never gain experience outside of being decimated by the soviet loss multiplier in early 1941 the game is an auto German win. You as the patch team have completely destroyed play balance over the last couple years as I predicted with the changes you started way back when me and Pelton were playing.

Im pretty salty because its alot of time wasted on playing a game for 10+ turns just see how mismatched the balance is now. Look at the older games you can easily see the Germans are now twice as fast and the soviets CV way worse and the Germans were winning games back then. Now you have made the game virtually auto German wins if the German player understands the logistics system.

< Message edited by chaos45 -- 8/6/2018 8:32:44 AM >

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RE: Unit Experience gain not working - 8/6/2018 8:15:57 AM   
morvael


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I just hope the speed does not stem from being able to cheat on HQBU AP costs, which was only recently removed. I assure you the last few patches are mostly developed with Soviet-boost and Axis-nerf in mind.

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RE: Unit Experience gain not working - 8/6/2018 8:25:59 AM   
chaos45

 

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we played all turns under the newest patch this game started within the last 2 weeks we play like 1 turn a day

my other new game is on T20+ but he had a really poor german opening and didnt manage his logistics so its more a learning experience for him and i wont be posting it we have been chatting via email.

As to german changes some effect/nerf both sides equally remember lol.

Also its because you guys buffed the germans alot in the past couple years and now they are out of control in the right hands.

lack of units with the good german opening is one of the big reasons for german speed early on- another suggestion would be go to normal costs for soviets to build units in the early game, wouldnt be a massive amount due to AP restrictions but could add bodies to fill holes until the destroyed units start to return as you also need AP to organize armies and get good soviet leaders in place. So you can add that to the possible change tool-box with the ones I sent you via PM.



< Message edited by chaos45 -- 8/6/2018 8:30:29 AM >

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RE: Unit Experience gain not working - 8/6/2018 8:45:52 AM   
morvael


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I have now reviewed the code and it wasn't changed to use different formulas, only optimized. The same formulas are still in use in WitW...

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RE: Unit Experience gain not working - 8/6/2018 8:47:17 AM   
chaos45

 

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okay but 1 exp per week is way to low...and I tested in german and soviet side so I know thats all you get. As all units were far to the rear and under command. So something isnt working right.

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RE: Unit Experience gain not working - 8/6/2018 8:53:02 AM   
morvael


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Here are examples of growth higher than 1 from my tests:

Growth by 3 in case of very low experience:
quote:

[733.3] 108th Rifle Division trains 44+0 x [788] 82mm Mortar (SU 1/37) (exp 16 -> 19, expAccum 0 -> 0)
[733.4] 108th Rifle Division trains 5+0 x [789] 120mm Mortar (SU 1/38) (exp 18 -> 21, expAccum 0 -> 0)


Extra growth thanks to accumulated experience (the only way to get it is to fight, the same is true for WitW):
quote:

[2476.0] 165th Rifle Division trains 175+30 x [793] Rifle Squad 41 (SU 4/41) (exp 44 -> 46, expAccum 5 -> 4)

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RE: Unit Experience gain not working - 8/6/2018 8:54:56 AM   
morvael


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I think this is not working:
quote:

Ground elements that have an experience level lower than their unit's morale will increase their experience at least one point per turn, but have a chance to gain up to a total of five experience points. The normal experience gain is two to three points per turn.


There is code that gives you more experience, but only from combat experience. Without that you're down to +1/+3. I think this can be fixed to follow the manual.

quote:

Ground elements in units in good supply, especially if they are located on a railhead (20.1.1) will be able to gain more experience during training, as will ground elements that participated in combat the previous turn.

The first part is not there, in WitW too.

< Message edited by morvael -- 8/6/2018 8:56:54 AM >

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RE: Unit Experience gain not working - 8/6/2018 8:59:50 AM   
chaos45

 

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up to +3 for in the rear on refit would be nice and something the soviet might be able to accomplish...

I can understand 1xp per week if they are on the line or moving entire mp each week....but when the unit is in the rear just training the growth should be more than 1....

I know it used to be because we had a discussion years ago about how the 2-3 a week for resting in the rear was in all honesty way to low to get a basic combat trained unit...which at 40-45NM a number game wise is at the very basic level of combat training.

Again I tested it Morvael---fresh soviet tank corps parked on a rail line right next to stavka on refit like 40 hexes to rear- 1 exp per turn consist for 4+ turn...and unit was only at like mid 20s exp when it started.

So something isnt working right because you never get the 2-3 and im not the only player that has noticed this.

< Message edited by chaos45 -- 8/6/2018 9:01:43 AM >

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RE: Unit Experience gain not working - 8/6/2018 9:00:43 AM   
SparkleyTits

 

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Yes if you are under 10 hexes there seems to be around a 50/50 chance of 1 exp
10 hexes or greater seems to be 1 exp each turn
Or you can aggrevate and brawl for better results as Morvael said

I think the past few updates have been made with the mind of bringing brawling to be more advantageous over the older style of passive play

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RE: Unit Experience gain not working - 8/6/2018 9:22:54 AM   
morvael


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Reworked this for next patch. Expect higher gains. What's interesting (and I have preserved this), part of experience gain formula favorizes units with low experience. That's good - some basic skillset is easier acquired than intricacies of advanced tactics.

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RE: Unit Experience gain not working - 8/6/2018 9:29:32 AM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

up to +3 for in the rear on refit would be nice and something the soviet might be able to accomplish...

I can understand 1xp per week if they are on the line or moving entire mp each week....but when the unit is in the rear just training the growth should be more than 1....

I know it used to be because we had a discussion years ago about how the 2-3 a week for resting in the rear was in all honesty way to low to get a basic combat trained unit...which at 40-45NM a number game wise is at the very basic level of combat training.

Again I tested it Morvael---fresh soviet tank corps parked on a rail line right next to stavka on refit like 40 hexes to rear- 1 exp per turn consist for 4+ turn...and unit was only at like mid 20s exp when it started.

So something isnt working right because you never get the 2-3 and im not the only player that has noticed this.


You can say that again, like I did 8 months ago....

It is not working but then again a gain of +5 max is probably too much....

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RE: Unit Experience gain not working - 8/6/2018 9:33:40 AM   
morvael


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What's interesting is that this part wasn't touched since 1.08.00, and even then it was only slightly optimized to fit into new replacement routines. And it differs only slightly from what is in current WitW.

I've changed it to this:

1.11.04 new feature
2) Reworked ground element experience gain. Elements will be able to gain up to 9 experience per turn, from 3 sources:
a) Elements with experience below 50% of unit’s morale will get +3 experience, elements with experience above 50% and below 75% of unit’s morale will get +2 experience, elements with experience above 75% and below unit’s morale will get +1 experience.
b) Elements in units on refit, and not adjacent to enemy units, will gain up to 3 experience. The chance to gain experience in this way is lower for units with high experience (for example: 37% for experience 25, 12% for experience 75).
c) Elements that have recently participated in combat, will gain up to 3 experience. The chance to gain experience in this way is lower for units with high experience (as above).

1.11.04 bug fix
2) Fixed a bug where it was impossible to gain extra experience from training at the rear (recent combat experience was required for any extra gain).

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RE: Unit Experience gain not working - 8/6/2018 9:39:00 AM   
morvael


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Integer rounding and order of application is more growth-friendly. It should be now possible to see those 2-3 pts gain on average in rear area training (reaching the max of 9 is unlikely - you'd have to have a very green unit involved in heavy combat and then put into refit at the rear).

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RE: Unit Experience gain not working - 8/6/2018 10:12:37 AM   
chaos45

 

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awesome, so all my time getting my butt kicked is good for at least one bug fix lol

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RE: Unit Experience gain not working - 8/6/2018 11:46:28 AM   
EwaldvonKleist


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Remember doing some tests on this a half year ago or so, experience gain never ever exceeded 1 point per turn whatever I did (fighting, refit on rail in the rear area etc.)
Thought it is WAD at that time.

The new experience gain rules are a massive buff to the Soviets, both in 1941 and 1942.




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RE: Unit Experience gain not working - 8/6/2018 11:55:28 AM   
morvael


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And maybe to the Germans in 1944 and 1945.

Yes, there was one other test based on experience and recent combat experience making the chance for actual experience gain really, really small, that I have now removed.

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RE: Unit Experience gain not working - 8/6/2018 11:57:12 AM   
chaos45

 

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Ewald- they arent new, is how its supposed to work. For some reason in a patch awhile back it was removed.

I remember back in 2015/16 having a very long discussion about how the average of 2-3 wasnt even near enough if you consider realistic training levels vs time and what 45 exp or 75 exp would actually represent as far as army training and experience goes.

So it was working back then and something was tweaked that dropped it to 1 exp max...which is and was a massive nerf to soviets.

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