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Japanese LB - 8/1/2018 11:53:53 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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Comparing the Ki-21-IIa Sally and the Ki-49-Ia Helen the Sally's are better except for gun value. Is there any other reason for building the Helen over the Sally or would you bypass the build and go to the IIa Helen?
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RE: Japanese LB - 8/1/2018 12:18:17 PM   
JoV

 

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Go straight for the IIa imo. That armor is a big help.

The Ia does have MAD iirc, but it supposedly doesn't really provide much benefit for ASW work.

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RE: Japanese LB - 8/1/2018 2:08:50 PM   
tigercub


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Ki-49 Helen line is badly needed it gets Armor and later get HMGs sally is only an early war bomber!

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RE: Japanese LB - 8/1/2018 2:43:46 PM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JoV

Go straight for the IIa imo. That armor is a big help.

The Ia does have MAD iirc, but it supposedly doesn't really provide much benefit for ASW work.


It does but not until mid 44.

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RE: Japanese LB - 8/1/2018 3:28:37 PM   
ITAKLinus

 

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Go straight for the armored Helen and forget the unarmoured one. It's basically useless when compared to Sally.

MAD device comes online very late and nothing prevents you to put a small number of Helen Ia into production and use those groups for ASW only, while the bulk of your LB units gets the IIa version.

Personally, I have skipped the Ia anticipating some months the IIa through R&D. If I will ever need the MAD device, I'll start a production line in '44.


Ia doesn't provide any benefit over the Sally.


Regarding defensive armament of Japanese LBs: I wish you good luck in downing anything with them

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RE: Japanese LB - 8/1/2018 7:11:16 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

Regarding defensive armament of Japanese LBs: I wish you good luck in downing anything with them


It isn't always about downing things as much as throwing off their aim and or damaging them such that they go away.

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RE: Japanese LB - 8/1/2018 7:18:56 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

quote:

Regarding defensive armament of Japanese LBs: I wish you good luck in downing anything with them



It isn't always about downing things as much as throwing off their aim and or damaging them such that they go away.


Don't forget OPs losses as well as damaged aircraft not being able to fly in combat the next turn.

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RE: Japanese LB - 8/2/2018 12:04:22 AM   
Grfin Zeppelin


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I would say they all die to fast to fighters. Range is the most important factor imo and well that armor helps a little against AA, I guess.

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RE: Japanese LB - 8/2/2018 12:54:19 AM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

I would say they all die to fast to fighters. Range is the most important factor imo and well that armor helps a little against AA, I guess.


I guess that the armor would also help when they decide to crash into ships. Something that damaged planes did in real life even when they weren't kamikazes that is not factored into the game.

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RE: Japanese LB - 8/2/2018 1:01:28 AM   
MakeeLearn


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Armor increases pilot survivability.

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RE: Japanese LB - 8/2/2018 5:26:00 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

I would say they all die to fast to fighters. Range is the most important factor imo and well that armor helps a little against AA, I guess.


I guess that the armor would also help when they decide to crash into ships. Something that damaged planes did in real life even when they weren't kamikazes that is not factored into the game.

I'm pretty sure I have seen non-kamikaze aircraft try (rarely successfully) to crash into a ship to "die for the emperor". This only seems to happen after the 1944 kamikaze activation possibility, I guess to model that the idea of such a sacrifice was spreading to regular air units and pilots with damaged planes were trying to make their last moments count.

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RE: Japanese LB - 8/2/2018 6:09:40 AM   
Yaab


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Gun value is not everything. IIRC, the later Sally gets a top-turret which can shoot 360 degrees.

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RE: Japanese LB - 8/2/2018 6:24:04 AM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

I'm pretty sure I have seen non-kamikaze aircraft try (rarely successfully) to crash into a ship to "die for the emperor". This only seems to happen after the 1944 kamikaze activation possibility, I guess to model that the idea of such a sacrifice was spreading to regular air units and pilots with damaged planes were trying to make their last moments count.


I have not made it that far before the computer gives up.

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RE: Japanese LB - 8/2/2018 11:09:35 AM   
ITAKLinus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Regarding defensive armament of Japanese LBs: I wish you good luck in downing anything with them


It isn't always about downing things as much as throwing off their aim and or damaging them such that they go away.


Yeah if you have a formation of B17 it might be the case.

I think that having more guns on Jap-LBs is nothing really useful. If you can have them, it's better, but if there is a tradeoff between guns and armour/range, well... F@ck the guns and give me armour and range.


Even in large LB raids, do you see many planes of enemy CAP being damaged/repelled by LB guns? If the enemy has a CAP I know that my jap-LBs will be slaughtered no matter what I do. And the more the games goes on and the more destruction is unleashed by Allied fighters on your poor Jap-LBs.

That's the sad reality.

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RE: Japanese LB - 8/2/2018 2:19:22 PM   
ElvisDaKing


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PDU ON

I do produce Ki-21 IIa Sally until Ki-49 IIa become available as it as a greater range

Ki-21 IIa Sally has 4 x 250kgs bombs / range = 10hex
Ki-49 IIa Helen has 4 x 250kgs bombs / range = 11hex

yes Ki-49 Ia has MAD but only in June 1944
Furthermore MAD like radar is useful for detection, not to increase the bomb accuracy.
I use extensively my bombers for ASW duty, but only for ASW : 70% ASW + 30% Rest
Sub detection is a task for my E13A1 Jake squadrons : 60% Nav Search + 40% Rest
I don t want to use my bombers for Nav Search in order to limit the Operationnal losses : it takes too long to train a pilot for ASW to see him dying in an accident during a nav search mission
So MAD and Radar are not useful for my bomber, which are only dedicated for ASW duty
I am looking forard for the E3A1b Jake with its N-6 Radar in Nov 44...
Re : strategy quite succesful in my current PBEM (Aug 43): No US sub can approach my bases for too long before being detected by my Jakes and then attacked by my Helen

I agree the 12.7mm machine gun on the Ki-49 IIb, compared to the 7.7mm machine gun of the Ki-49IIa, won t make any significant difference
It s a nice to have, but it does not worth investing R&D for the Ki-49 IIb after you get the Ki-49 IIa....

True, armor increase the survivability of the pilot, but does not increase the capacity of the plane to sustain additional damage in combat
So armor is good when you fly over your base, but when you bomb enemy base and your plane get shot down, even if the pilot survives, he will finish in a POW camp....


Last: I plan to keep Ki-49 IIb Helen as my main IJA bomber until end of the war and I won t produce the Ki-67 Peggy
Reasons : Ki-67 carries only 3 x 250kgs bombs, vs 4 for the Helen, and it has a Service rating of 3 vs only 2 for the Helen...

Yes, Ki-67 has a greater range, 14 hex but what is the point as it has a reduced bomb load; 4 x250kgs is already not enough to put great damage to allied airfields/ports with Ki-49 Helen, and there s no plane able to escort on a such long distance...

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(in reply to ITAKLinus)
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RE: Japanese LB - 8/2/2018 3:15:42 PM   
ITAKLinus

 

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Totally agree.

What do you think about Peggy (T). It seems a waaste of time due to the very long R&D process required and the fact that even when you get it, you have to wait a long time befour you have pilots trained.
Still, it seems something worth of attention. In my game I am quite doubtful whether to research it quite intensively and try to have a large production of it or don't produce it at all.




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RE: Japanese LB - 8/2/2018 8:31:15 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

I'm pretty sure I have seen non-kamikaze aircraft try (rarely successfully) to crash into a ship to "die for the emperor". This only seems to happen after the 1944 kamikaze activation possibility, I guess to model that the idea of such a sacrifice was spreading to regular air units and pilots with damaged planes were trying to make their last moments count.


Had it happen once in a game in early '43. It didn't succeed, but I recall the message.

quote:

Radar are not useful for my bomber, which are only dedicated for ASW


Radar will most certainly aid an ASW attack.

quote:

Ki-67 has a greater range, 14 hex


I'll take the range.

quote:

What do you think about Peggy (T).


Torpedo attacks are far better at sinking ships than bombs. I can envision a situation where an Allied crippled capital ship is attempting to escape and I have a group or two of these in the neighborhood that may prevent that. Remember every plane can fill a roll in the game. Will I build hundreds of these, no, but there will probably be some lurking about. As to their research, we'll see.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to ITAKLinus)
Post #: 17
RE: Japanese LB - 8/2/2018 8:38:19 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

Even in large LB raids, do you see many planes of enemy CAP being damaged/repelled by LB guns? If the enemy has a CAP I know that my jap-LBs will be slaughtered no matter what I do. And the more the games goes on and the more destruction is unleashed by Allied fighters on your poor Jap-LBs.

That's the sad reality.


Ever hear of the seven "P's". Prior Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. Now don't get angry its a joke, but if you just put your head down and charge any attack will most likely fail. If you wish to 'hit' something with your bombers you must prepare the target first. Not saying it'll be easy, but there are ways to do it.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
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RE: Japanese LB - 8/2/2018 9:12:01 PM   
Mike Solli


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For me, it's the Helen with is armor. My Sallies are relegated to bombing Chungking. After that, ASW. But then, eventually all of my IJA bombers will become ASW platforms.

Has anyone EVER had a Japanese bomber shoot down anything? I haven't, and I've been playing this game for a long time.

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RE: Japanese LB - 8/2/2018 9:56:43 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

Has anyone EVER had a Japanese bomber shoot down anything?


No, and I'm sure I would remember an event like that. Just like I remember a Nate shooting down a B-17D. A bunch of the little buggers jumped a few 17's and after many damaged results finally shot one down. At least according to the combat play.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Mike Solli)
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RE: Japanese LB - 8/3/2018 6:24:10 PM   
Yaab


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IJN bomber have 7.7mm MGs with lower accuracy than IJA bombers, so any bomber-ace should be hiding in the IJA pilot ranks.

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RE: Japanese LB - 8/3/2018 7:53:47 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi
quote:

What do you think about Peggy (T).

Torpedo attacks are far better at sinking ships than bombs. I can envision a situation where an Allied crippled capital ship is attempting to escape and I have a group or two of these in the neighborhood that may prevent that. Remember every plane can fill a roll in the game. Will I build hundreds of these, no, but there will probably be some lurking about. As to their research, we'll see.

Night torpedo attacks is pretty much the only thing that can stress out Allies from the air in the final stages of the game no matter CAP. Massed kamikaze onslaught is another but it is very costly one-time thing

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RE: Japanese LB - 8/3/2018 11:56:11 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

Night torpedo attacks is pretty much the only thing that can stress out Allies from the air in the final stages of the game no matter CAP. Massed kamikaze onslaught is another but it is very costly one-time thing


Night torpedo attacks are also much easier on the aircraft and has increased aircrew survivability. AAA is reduced at night. You also don't have to worry about escorts so more fighters are available for defensive CAP.


_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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RE: Japanese LB - 8/4/2018 10:22:40 AM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


Has anyone EVER had a Japanese bomber shoot down anything? I haven't, and I've been playing this game for a long time.


I have had the Betty that has a bunch of 20mm guns shoot down some fighters late in the game. Emily can do it too.





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