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Defending the Soviet Union - 7/25/2018 9:44:19 PM   
Kielec

 

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I just finished my "Bitter End" campaign as the Axis, and just took a few turns on the Soviet side (against AI, right?). Without my moving many units (just a try to withdraw a couple of the most experienced divisions from the remnants of the front on turn 2), by turn 3 the AI is far behind what I have achieved in my Axis playthrough. No surprises here; I did read the forums and followed some of the YouTube advice (MarauderPL - outdated, but still good!)
But I still have no idea how to go about this monster from the SU side.

1. Do I try to pull out to the back all of them decent divisions before they are encircled?
1a. If so, do I focus on EXP, or on numbers, or tech involved (as in protecting the T-34s?)?

2. (I should have started with that one...) What do I read, forum-wise, and what would you recommend as a must see on YouTube?

3. On the first turn as SU (that's Turn 2...) I pulled out a couple divisions back (train), and subordinated them to STAVKA. Beginning turn 3 some of them had 0 (zero) movement. I guess I am spoiled by the efficiency of Ze Wehrmacht?

4. What would be the AP use for the Soviets on the first turns? What commander replacements are recommended?

5. Air. Any point in withdrawing any air squadrons (soon to be lost in encirclements) to the National Reserve? Or trying to transfer them, or whatever? Any types of flying hardware worth saving?

THX!!
Post #: 1
RE: Defending the Soviet Union - 7/26/2018 2:44:49 AM   
thedoctorking


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1. Saving good divisions should be a priority, but it is one among many. Generally, don't worry too much about losing tanks, you will shortly have more than you need. Those big tank divisions have about one attack in them and you should use it to break pockets or pocket German armor. Every turn you keep one of your first-turn pockets alive is another turn you have delayed the arrival of the German infantry at your main line of resistance.
2. I have done a beginning players guide. There are a lot of other posts in that same WitE Library area of the forum that could be useful for you.
3. Guys with zero movement are locked for some reason. Every mobile unit has at least one MP at the beginning of the turn. I think you might have mistaken the divisions you moved earlier for ones that were still locked from the start.
4. I wouldn't be changing any leaders on the first couple of turns. You have better uses for the AP - organizing your fronts and building SU.
5. You should withdraw all air units that are in danger of being overrun (although if the German player knows his business he will have already overrun all vulnerable airfields on turn 1). But if you have some, get them out. Air units with 30 morale or less (maybe 35) should go to NR, others go into the air bases well behind your line (the core-staging base model).

(in reply to Kielec)
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RE: Defending the Soviet Union - 7/26/2018 4:50:18 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thedoctorking

1. Saving good divisions should be a priority, but it is one among many. Generally, don't worry too much about losing tanks, you will shortly have more than you need. Those big tank divisions have about one attack in them and you should use it to break pockets or pocket German armor. Every turn you keep one of your first-turn pockets alive is another turn you have delayed the arrival of the German infantry at your main line of resistance.
2. I have done a beginning players guide. There are a lot of other posts in that same WitE Library area of the forum that could be useful for you.
3. Guys with zero movement are locked for some reason. Every mobile unit has at least one MP at the beginning of the turn. I think you might have mistaken the divisions you moved earlier for ones that were still locked from the start.
4. I wouldn't be changing any leaders on the first couple of turns. You have better uses for the AP - organizing your fronts and building SU.
5. You should withdraw all air units that are in danger of being overrun (although if the German player knows his business he will have already overrun all vulnerable airfields on turn 1). But if you have some, get them out. Air units with 30 morale or less (maybe 35) should go to NR, others go into the air bases well behind your line (the core-staging base model).



#1. Good luck having a Soviet Tank or Mech division with MP's for a Deliberate Attack :-)


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Post #: 3
RE: Defending the Soviet Union - 7/26/2018 7:34:14 AM   
56ajax


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As the Soviet player your mission is to save as much men, equipment, resources, units etc so that you are in a position to counter attack in 1943. this means that you have to delay the enemy whilst saving as many as possible.

Assume that all the units and equipment you have on day 1 are rubbish.

Reduce all TOEs as there is no point in reinforcing units that will be shattered or surrounded a turn or 2 later.

Order of attack priority is Axis Allies, german Inf...dont bother on Panzers

Su2s, IL2s to reserve

If possible park tank divs, motorised divs, cav and paratroops well out of the way until they can be turned into something better

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RE: Defending the Soviet Union - 7/26/2018 8:29:00 AM   
MarauderPL

 

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1a. Protecting tanks is not really important, but protecting vehicles (trucks) that every tank/mech division has inside them is worth considering. The trucks will be invaluable later on, to create tank/mech corps in 1942+ and fueling your offensives. Of course its a trade-off - risk them at the front right now, or save them for "later" - but will there be any "later" if you don't commit enough?

3. You might have pulled them into a region that is frozen as a whole, so the divisions get frozen as well. (And they don't let it go..) The most notable area early on is Finland, but maybe Bessarabia works like that as well if the Romanians are not active? I haven't tested it.

4. There are a lot of options, of course with pro's and cons. The most obvious con of every decision is the alternative cost to it. Replacing bad leaders is an option - especially in the most heated area - in MP games it is usually the Leningrad direction. If you want to place a good general, do it on the army level, the corps are disbanding soon(ish) - around Turn 5+. But if an army gets a nice leader, dont forget to disband all the corps underneath, or the effectiveness will be diminished. Other AP spending ideas include disbanding fortified zones, creating SU's (sappers most likely, though they got nerfed substantially), rearranging OOB (but with some experience you could minimize the cost here by retreating in an organized way - sticking armies and corps together - but some is always required), also pulling AA formations out of the cities (be careful, pull only the ones that are really close to the front - about 5 hexes, otherwise you can lose like 15 AP without any warning). A potential AP cost to pay is also in the SU rearrangement issue - if not using the automigration strats with locking/unlocking HQ's (the soviet side is really tricky though, arriving armies entering with unlocked status, so STAVKA sends them a lot of crap anyways if its unlocked itself).

5. I usually put all the airforce to reserve turn 1, so it is easier to manage and allocate in the following turns, some people deem it unhistorical/gamey, but it saves a lot of clicking, frustration and time, and I'm sure the AI won't mind. Every piece of equipment is worth saving, depending what you want to do later. Definitely recon planes are worth their weight in gold as you produce next to none. Bombers and attack planes are also quite important, but you will soon be producing enough. The most dispensable are the I-types fighters.

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 5
RE: Defending the Soviet Union - 7/26/2018 2:35:30 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

As the Soviet player your mission is to save as much men, equipment, resources, units etc so that you are in a position to counter attack in 1943. this means that you have to delay the enemy whilst saving as many as possible.

Assume that all the units and equipment you have on day 1 are rubbish.

Reduce all TOEs as there is no point in reinforcing units that will be shattered or surrounded a turn or 2 later.

Order of attack priority is Axis Allies, german Inf...dont bother on Panzers

Su2s, IL2s to reserve

If possible park tank divs, motorised divs, cav and paratroops well out of the way until they can be turned into something better


Hmmmm, almost everything I am doing in my Soviet game goes against what is written here. I could be in trouble. But for someone starting out I think this is good advice but I just have a different philosophy. After reading this I will detail my philosophy out in my AAR. Thank you 56ajax

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 7/26/2018 2:36:12 PM >


_____________________________

Space we can recover; time never

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Post #: 6
RE: Defending the Soviet Union - 7/27/2018 6:36:44 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 999
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From: Carnegie, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

As the Soviet player your mission is to save as much men, equipment, resources, units etc so that you are in a position to counter attack in 1943. this means that you have to delay the enemy whilst saving as many as possible.

Assume that all the units and equipment you have on day 1 are rubbish.

Reduce all TOEs as there is no point in reinforcing units that will be shattered or surrounded a turn or 2 later.

Order of attack priority is Axis Allies, german Inf...dont bother on Panzers

Su2s, IL2s to reserve

If possible park tank divs, motorised divs, cav and paratroops well out of the way until they can be turned into something better


Hmmmm, almost everything I am doing in my Soviet game goes against what is written here. I could be in trouble. But for someone starting out I think this is good advice but I just have a different philosophy. After reading this I will detail my philosophy out in my AAR. Thank you 56ajax


No worries HYLA. Whilst I am an experienced player my expertise is average, and thus don't have the skill or temperament to try other strategies.

My ambition is to survive until saved by Mud, which is not always a possibility.

I look forward to reading your AARs and good luck.


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Post #: 7
RE: Defending the Soviet Union - 7/28/2018 9:08:03 PM   
Kielec

 

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OK. Thanks everyone for your inputs.

Have to confess, I somehow hoped for more straightforward guidelines, but I have already realised, that Turn 1 plays in mysterious ways (za Gerrmans do this, or that), so there just cannot be an easy step, by step for the Soviet side.


Still.


I. Zhukov? Shouldn't I employ him somewhere else?

II. STAVKA leader sucks (sort of) - that OK?

III. When do the frozen armies and whatnot defreeze? Axis have to be some number of hexes frome them?

IV. If I just pull out everything beyond the (foreseen for the next turn) 25 MP from the railhead mark for the Germans, isn't that going to basically stop the PzDivs? How much fuel can they fly into them?

V. Is it worth to try and block the Germans from reaching the Rumanian border? When do the Rumanians start moving on their own?

VI. Ze Finns? When do they start moving? And, more importantly, perhaps, when can they cross the line? I think I had a problem figuring that out in my Axis gameplay, and I think it took taking all of the Leningrad hexes. Not sure anymore, though...

VII. When do I get to start to evacuate factories, and how to prioritise? Armaments, I guess?

Thanks again!

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 8
RE: Defending the Soviet Union - 7/28/2018 10:58:34 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kielec

OK. Thanks everyone for your inputs.

Have to confess, I somehow hoped for more straightforward guidelines, but I have already realised, that Turn 1 plays in mysterious ways (za Gerrmans do this, or that), so there just cannot be an easy step, by step for the Soviet side.


Still.


I. Zhukov? Shouldn't I employ him somewhere else?

II. STAVKA leader sucks (sort of) - that OK?

III. When do the frozen armies and whatnot defreeze? Axis have to be some number of hexes frome them?

IV. If I just pull out everything beyond the (foreseen for the next turn) 25 MP from the railhead mark for the Germans, isn't that going to basically stop the PzDivs? How much fuel can they fly into them?

V. Is it worth to try and block the Germans from reaching the Rumanian border? When do the Rumanians start moving on their own?

VI. Ze Finns? When do they start moving? And, more importantly, perhaps, when can they cross the line? I think I had a problem figuring that out in my Axis gameplay, and I think it took taking all of the Leningrad hexes. Not sure anymore, though...

VII. When do I get to start to evacuate factories, and how to prioritise? Armaments, I guess?

Thanks again!


1. Use Zhuko for Army Command. I do. He is the best the Soviets have

2. Leave tun one commander of Stavka in place. You want high admin and good morale in Stavka and Soviets dont have many of those. Btw Zhuko in that position (Stavka) is a waste

3 Which armies specifically? Because some units will stay frozen the whole game and you can see the unfreeze date on the counter when it dies unfreeze

4. No it wont stop the panzer. I normally hardly used air resupply learned long time ago how to play without them.

5. This is a pipe dream for a Ruusian to try and do against a pro German

6. Finn units start moving turn 4 when they can attack

7. I prioritize heavy Industy to try and stay above 200 and the arms to stay above 300. Of course take tank, and plane factories even if just one.

Hope this helps

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 7/28/2018 11:01:08 PM >


_____________________________

Space we can recover; time never

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RE: Defending the Soviet Union - 7/28/2018 11:20:30 PM   
MarauderPL

 

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I. Sure you can. Should that be straight away (Turn 1,2) I'm not convinced, treat him like a strategic resource, commit when needed. (If you decide he's needed on turn 2, ofc do so) Many people refrain from changing commanders early, so the bad guys accumulate all the early defeats and the competent guys come in later and rack up the victories, promotions and splendor.

II. He's perfectly fine.

III. The armies defreeze when their time comes, usually turn 2. Some do not, and you have to wait till the axis come close (its often too late tho - especially for the stavka bois in the northern ukraine)

IV. They can fly in some, can do HQBU, to learn what the panzers can and cant do comes with experience and a lot of pain :) pulling back of course helps, but ceding too much land too quickly can result in losing critical objectives, like moscow (not against the AI, tho)

V. The germans usually reach romanian border on turn 1. If not, the romanians start to move on turn 3.

VI. Finns move at turn 5 (or 6? i dont remember), they can cross the line when met up with a german unit, so basically the whole leningrad area must be secured by the germans or the infamous right hook around lake ladoga

VII. You start on turn 3, there needs to be a balance between HI and Arm, its described somewhere in the forums. Crucial are some "named" factories - tanks and planes, as those are irreplaceable. You can lose some Arm and HI and still be topped up with everything you will need if the future.

(in reply to Kielec)
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RE: Defending the Soviet Union - 7/28/2018 11:56:27 PM   
tomeck48

 

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I just address the Zhukov issue. From my (limited) experience he's wasted at Stavka or even a front. Figure out your most critical piece of terrain and put him in charge of the army there. And give him some decent units to work with. And wait until probably turn 3 before you give hm a command, no sense saddling him with losses he couldn't win anyway. I put him in Stavka on turn 1 in my first Russian game and then watched him get sacked a few turns later. I was not happy.

(in reply to Kielec)
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RE: Defending the Soviet Union - 7/29/2018 4:18:30 PM   
thedoctorking


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The Germans usually reach the Romanian border on turn 1, at least with an experienced player. It is key to making much progress in the south to prevent those units in the Lvov pocket from escaping. Most of the time, nothing the Soviets can do to stop this.

There is an argument for putting good leaders in charge of fronts for the USSR, but only if you are very careful not to overload the front. An army commander only affects his own army, though with a high chance of making his roll. A front commander affects three or four armies, though with a lower chance of making the roll, and will only need to make his roll if the army commander below him failed. Generally, I try to have front commanders have reasonably good morale ratings since they will often be making morale rolls, especially early on with the crappy early war Soviet leaders. As Tele pointed out a while ago, you can check the effect of a leader change by opening up a unit's supply view and looking at the percentage chance of making its rolls. Use the editor to set up a test and try putting various leaders in charge in various situations and see what difference it makes.

Factory evacuation starts in July, turn 3 IIRC. There's an article on the "WitE LIbrary" thread with suggestions about factory evacuation - basic takeaway, you need a balance between HI and Armaments, and make sure to take at least one point of all the air/armor factories that will continue to produce stuff after winter 1941. Better still if you can get at least half the factory out.

Two schools of thought about stopping the Finns: building a line of fortified zones along the no attack line across the Karelian Isthmus is key, but some people like to fight it out along the Janisjarvi line (north end of Lake Ladoga) to bleed the Finns (they don't have much manpower) and farm victories for Guard creation, while others prefer to retreat to the Svir (the no attack line between Lakes Ladoga and Onega) and build a line of forts there so that you can stop the Finns with no commitment of actual troops. The second option costs 44 AP, basically almost a full turn's allocation or 22 new artillery SU, a big decision. The option you choose depends on how hard the Germans are pushing you in the north and how many troops you can spare for the more aggressive option. To really stop the Finns in the north, you need a full-strength army with a good leader (7th Independent Army starts with a good one).


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RE: Defending the Soviet Union - 7/29/2018 5:34:39 PM   
chaos45

 

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HLYA---disagree in #7...Ive studies the numbers on the soviet economy..heavy industry is a waste.

Priority should be
#1 named equipment factories at least 1 point worth.
#2 Armaments
#3 Heavy/Vehicles

Really as long as you dont drop below 180 Heavy you are fine esp if you trash the crappy bi-planes.....and by the time you have a large enough army to worry about supplies your yearly multiplier takes care of it...and worst case you can also shut off some factories by moving them, or reduce your fortification levels which you dont really need as soviets late game when you have the big army.

So to me is best to save as many armaments points as you because that equals more heavy artillery and Cav/sapper squads.


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RE: Defending the Soviet Union - 7/30/2018 7:53:40 AM   
MarauderPL

 

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Does more armaments points really means more Hvy Art and Cav? Aren't they hardcapped? Unless a lot of factories get overrun the Soviets are swimming in armaments later in the war, and you can't do anything to utilize them, due to the hardcaps (and manpower limitations).

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RE: Defending the Soviet Union - 7/30/2018 3:48:23 PM   
chaos45

 

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It really depends on how you built the soviet army.....you can build a mass army without lots of heavy equipment or go with a more elite force.

I found usually by later in 1941 and for most of 1942 the soviets run out of armaments and dont get a surplus until late 1943....so the more you save early on the more quickly you rebuild a very strong soviet army.

You have to realize armaments pay for a huge variety of weapons so just because some are hardcapped you still need tons. Sapper squads as well- if you want a powerful soviet army you will need lots of there, and they used to cost more armaments points than standard infantry unless one of the patches has changed that.

Also even with hardcapped cav squads...they still cost armaments points to build.....so the more the better....I gauge how much artillery I can build as the soviets based on the amount available, as you still have to have the points to hit the hardcaps.

just my thoughts....supply- you will be swimming in by 1943 and honestly because you build a surplus all through 1941 due to the small size of the soviet army its almost a non-factor unless you lose a ton of it.

(in reply to MarauderPL)
Post #: 15
RE: Defending the Soviet Union - 7/30/2018 3:58:16 PM   
thedoctorking


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I should point out that the biplanes are better than no planes. If your air force has been really expertly trashed, you might be flying biplanes throughout 1941 and even into the spring of 1942. If you just evacuate 1 point of the two IL-2 factories, they (and the Mig-3 factory that converts to IL-2 production in the winter) won't be fully back on line until spring. So your ground attack squadrons won't be full of IL-2's (especially if you build a bunch of new squadrons as I think you should) until the beginning of the summer season. You might end up doing a lot of ground support with U2VS. And transport squadrons will be staffed with U2 transports until your Li-2 factory rebuilds. And God forbid that you should lose any of those factories entirely. So don't trash the biplanes too quickly.

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RE: Defending the Soviet Union - 7/30/2018 5:35:10 PM   
chaos45

 

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ehh dont lose those factories....and the soviet airforce will be hard pressed till at least the end of 1942 no matter what....for the airwar early on is best to just load up on extra fighter squadrons until you drag down the luftwaffe IMO.

Okay production example from T7 of a game I have going- this is to make case to save armaments.

T7- produced 77,000 armaments roughly, used 117,000.

So a deficit of 40,000 armaments and I'm only on T7 and this game I feel is going very well for soviets. Even if you save the armaments points they wont be back fully producing for alot of turns so you will prolly burn out any armaments surplus if your building a well equipped soviet Army. I like my soviet army to be well equipped as it increases german losses and allows you to get on the offensive for quickly....as well the quicker you rebuild the soviet army and get all the support units you want online the more quickly they get fully trained and then guard status....and if you actually win combats you can slowly build up your morale and experience higher than NM.

(in reply to thedoctorking)
Post #: 17
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