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Did AMC ships carry HE ammo only?

 
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Did AMC ships carry HE ammo only? - 7/11/2018 1:30:13 PM   
Yaab


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AMCs ( armed merchant cruisers) wered designed to harass convoys and their small escorts (DD, PF, DE etc). Does that mean they carried no AP ammo since they were not supposed to go against armored enemy ships?
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RE: Did AMC ships carry HE ammo only? - 7/11/2018 1:34:48 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab
AMCs ( armed merchant cruisers) wered designed to harass convoys and their small escorts (DD, PF, DE etc). Does that mean they carried no AP ammo since they were not supposed to go against armored enemy ships?

CL HMAS Sydney was lost in 1:1 fight against an AMC. German though, not Japanese

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RE: Did AMC ships carry HE ammo only? - 7/11/2018 1:52:46 PM   
geofflambert


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I believe there was another similar battle where both the cruiser and the AMC were sunk.

Never mind, that is in fact the battle where that happened. Though the Sydney sank first, the Kormoran also sank.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 7/11/2018 1:58:05 PM >

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RE: Did AMC ships carry HE ammo only? - 7/11/2018 2:11:29 PM   
ericv

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I believe there was another similar battle where both the cruiser and the AMC were sunk.

Never mind, that is in fact the battle where that happened. Though the Sydney sank first, the Kormoran also sank.


The german AMC Stier was sunk in combat with the US Merchant ship Stephen Hopkins, which itself was also sunk in this engagement.


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RE: Did AMC ships carry HE ammo only? - 7/11/2018 4:19:21 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I believe there was another similar battle where both the cruiser and the AMC were sunk.

Never mind, that is in fact the battle where that happened. Though the Sydney sank first, the Kormoran also sank.

Kormoran torpedoed the unwary Sydney and used her guns to smash the cruiser topside. I have not heard of any shells piercing Sydney's armour belt, but when you have torpedo holes below it, you don't really need to go through it.

Sydney was battling heavy fires, probably with limited ability to pump water thanks to the torpedo hit(s) knocking out engine power. The crew of Kormoran (in lifeboats) saw a huge explosion over the horizon where the burning Sydney was, suggesting the fires set off the CL's magazines or torpedo warheads.

So I rather doubt that AMCs carried AP shells - they would pass through the intended prey, unarmoured merchant vessels.

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 7/12/2018 12:15:09 AM >


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RE: Did AMC ships carry HE ammo only? - 7/11/2018 5:05:56 PM   
Zorch

 

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Ditto. AP shells had less explosive than HE because of the hard steel cap.

http://museum.wa.gov.au/explore/sydney/videos/hmas-sydney-ii-and-hsk-kormoran-survey-expedition-4-may-2015

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RE: Did AMC ships carry HE ammo only? - 7/12/2018 7:13:22 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I believe there was another similar battle where both the cruiser and the AMC were sunk.

Never mind, that is in fact the battle where that happened. Though the Sydney sank first, the Kormoran also sank.

Kormoran torpedoed the unwary Sydney and used her guns to smash the cruiser topside. I have not heard of any shells piercing Sydney's armour belt, but when you have torpedo holes below it, you don't really need to go through it.

Sydney was battling heavy fires, probably with limited ability to pump water thanks to the torpedo hit(s) knocking out engine power. The crew of Kormoran (in lifeboats) saw a huge explosion over the horizon where the burning Sydney was, suggesting the fires set off the CL's magazines or torpedo warheads.

So I rather doubt that AMCs carried AP shells - they would pass through the intended prey, unarmoured merchant vessels.


There is an episode of Drain the Oceans that covers this battle. Based on the damage found on the wrecks, the Sydney's bridge, and first two turrets were taken out by gunfire before the ship was torpedoed. The turrets appear to have been hit by AP rounds.

These sorts of programs aren't great on the details. For one they kept referring to the Germans as "Nazis". They said the guns on the Kormoran were modified AT guns. I don't know why the Germans would do that, they had a range of naval guns from S-boats on up to large battleships. They could have easily mounted some small caliber naval guns.



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RE: Did AMC ships carry HE ammo only? - 7/12/2018 1:47:20 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I believe there was another similar battle where both the cruiser and the AMC were sunk.

Never mind, that is in fact the battle where that happened. Though the Sydney sank first, the Kormoran also sank.

Kormoran torpedoed the unwary Sydney and used her guns to smash the cruiser topside. I have not heard of any shells piercing Sydney's armour belt, but when you have torpedo holes below it, you don't really need to go through it.

Sydney was battling heavy fires, probably with limited ability to pump water thanks to the torpedo hit(s) knocking out engine power. The crew of Kormoran (in lifeboats) saw a huge explosion over the horizon where the burning Sydney was, suggesting the fires set off the CL's magazines or torpedo warheads.

So I rather doubt that AMCs carried AP shells - they would pass through the intended prey, unarmoured merchant vessels.


There is an episode of Drain the Oceans that covers this battle. Based on the damage found on the wrecks, the Sydney's bridge, and first two turrets were taken out by gunfire before the ship was torpedoed. The turrets appear to have been hit by AP rounds.

These sorts of programs aren't great on the details. For one they kept referring to the Germans as "Nazis". They said the guns on the Kormoran were modified AT guns. I don't know why the Germans would do that, they had a range of naval guns from S-boats on up to large battleships. They could have easily mounted some small caliber naval guns.



Just looked up Kormoran in Wikipedia. Main armament was 6x 15cm (5.9 inch) guns but it did have two 3.7cm Pak 36 a/t guns and 5x 20mm flak guns. It also had six TT with 24 torps. Her marine diesels could make up to 18 kts. speed.
I can only guess the a/t guns were for pinpoint targets like trying to hit the radio room of a ship so it did not send out a distress call, or maybe the bridge or defensive guns.


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RE: Did AMC ships carry HE ammo only? - 7/12/2018 4:01:02 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I believe there was another similar battle where both the cruiser and the AMC were sunk.

Never mind, that is in fact the battle where that happened. Though the Sydney sank first, the Kormoran also sank.

Kormoran torpedoed the unwary Sydney and used her guns to smash the cruiser topside. I have not heard of any shells piercing Sydney's armour belt, but when you have torpedo holes below it, you don't really need to go through it.

Sydney was battling heavy fires, probably with limited ability to pump water thanks to the torpedo hit(s) knocking out engine power. The crew of Kormoran (in lifeboats) saw a huge explosion over the horizon where the burning Sydney was, suggesting the fires set off the CL's magazines or torpedo warheads.

So I rather doubt that AMCs carried AP shells - they would pass through the intended prey, unarmoured merchant vessels.


There is an episode of Drain the Oceans that covers this battle. Based on the damage found on the wrecks, the Sydney's bridge, and first two turrets were taken out by gunfire before the ship was torpedoed. The turrets appear to have been hit by AP rounds.

These sorts of programs aren't great on the details. For one they kept referring to the Germans as "Nazis". They said the guns on the Kormoran were modified AT guns. I don't know why the Germans would do that, they had a range of naval guns from S-boats on up to large battleships. They could have easily mounted some small caliber naval guns.



Just looked up Kormoran in Wikipedia. Main armament was 6x 15cm (5.9 inch) guns but it did have two 3.7cm Pak 36 a/t guns and 5x 20mm flak guns. It also had six TT with 24 torps. Her marine diesels could make up to 18 kts. speed.
I can only guess the a/t guns were for pinpoint targets like trying to hit the radio room of a ship so it did not send out a distress call, or maybe the bridge or defensive guns.



I don't think that the Leanders had much armor on their main turrets. HE rounds could easily have taken out the turrets at that range as well.

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RE: Did AMC ships carry HE ammo only? - 7/12/2018 4:56:18 PM   
Omat


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Hello

Here is the final report of the sinking of bot ships.

http://www.defence.gov.au/sydneyii/FinalReport/


Interesting is Volume 2 Chapter 12. It shows the battle damage

http://www.defence.gov.au/sydneyii/FinalReport/Report/Chapter%2012.pdf

Omat

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RE: Did AMC ships carry HE ammo only? - 7/12/2018 5:53:32 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Omat
Hello

Here is the final report of the sinking of bot ships.
http://www.defence.gov.au/sydneyii/FinalReport/

Interesting is Volume 2 Chapter 12. It shows the battle damage
http://www.defence.gov.au/sydneyii/FinalReport/Report/Chapter%2012.pdf

Very interesting documents thank you.
They also tell about AP shells used by Kormoran. In the pdf tables on page 224 mentions a lot of penetrations, and page 278-279 speaks about AP shells directly.

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RE: Did AMC ships carry HE ammo only? - 7/12/2018 6:03:27 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Omat

Hello

Here is the final report of the sinking of bot ships.

http://www.defence.gov.au/sydneyii/FinalReport/


Interesting is Volume 2 Chapter 12. It shows the battle damage

http://www.defence.gov.au/sydneyii/FinalReport/Report/Chapter%2012.pdf

Omat

Very detailed references! They state that Kormoran did carry AP shells, and fired both AP and HE at Sydney.
They also refer to the 37mm guns as AA, which is contrary to Wikipedia's description of them as A/T. Given the thoroughness of the investigation information, I trust their description of AA over the Wiki wherein one might have just looked for German 37mm guns and picked the first type to show up.

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RE: Did AMC ships carry HE ammo only? - 7/12/2018 7:59:25 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Omat

Hello

Here is the final report of the sinking of bot ships.

http://www.defence.gov.au/sydneyii/FinalReport/


Interesting is Volume 2 Chapter 12. It shows the battle damage

http://www.defence.gov.au/sydneyii/FinalReport/Report/Chapter%2012.pdf

Omat

Very detailed references! They state that Kormoran did carry AP shells, and fired both AP and HE at Sydney.
They also refer to the 37mm guns as AA, which is contrary to Wikipedia's description of them as A/T. Given the thoroughness of the investigation information, I trust their description of AA over the Wiki wherein one might have just looked for German 37mm guns and picked the first type to show up.

High velocity artillery can be either AAA or AT. As long as it can elevate. The famous Flak 88 AT was also a AAA gun. So was the USA 90mm. Both guns were also used in tanks. 37mm was originally a AT gun. Apparently some one changed the mounting and it also became a DP (dual purpose) gun.

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RE: Did AMC ships carry HE ammo only? - 7/12/2018 9:02:45 PM   
Dili

 

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This 37 AA most probably not the puny 37 PAK. At distance combat was done any 150 round would penetrate.

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RE: Did AMC ships carry HE ammo only? - 7/13/2018 1:18:55 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

This 37 AA most probably not the puny 37 PAK. At distance combat was done any 150 round would penetrate.

Look at the investigator's report PDF. There is a picture of four 15cm hits within a couple of yards radius that did not penetrate Sydney's side, they all just left dents several inches deep. Whether they exploded or were duds is another question.

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