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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and the ones I can't bear

 
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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/3/2018 5:40:25 PM   
wodin


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True. I really don't think Monty is seen as some WW2 hero by us. This day and age you'd be hard pressed to find someone who knows who he is. Yes there was El Alamein, but the ground work had already been done to be honest, Rommel was on his last legs. Then we have Market Garden, hardly a roaring success.

As for Beevor I did enjoy his Stalingrad book must admit. However people like Jason D Mark are more up my alley so to speak.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight

Thats funny, because its FROM Beevor that Ive learned that Montgomery was a credit-grabbing, over-promise/under-deliver roll-eyes kind of guy.
Now thats in no way to diminish his role in the desert or the Brits conduct in the war.
Actually come to think of it Beevor also comfirmed my belief that Ernest Hemmingway was a class A dick. Such a pompous ass.




< Message edited by wodin -- 6/3/2018 5:43:15 PM >


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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/3/2018 6:15:01 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: berto

By "football" I meant what we American provincials call "soccer", of course.

Well, according to Wiktionary, soccer is word of British English. Like railway.

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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/3/2018 6:59:33 PM   
whalus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight
Actually come to think of it Beevor also comfirmed my belief that Ernest Hemmingway was a class A dick. Such a pompous ass.


Yes, there is plenty of evidence that Hemingway was a class A dick. But in my view, that no way detracts from the quality of his literary output. Especially his earlier work such as the short story collection In Our Time.
Unfortunately, by the 1950's his alcoholism and deteriorating mental capacities due to numerous head injuries made him even more of a dick.

And to get this post back on the topic of war films: For Whom the Bell Tolls is a favorite of mine.

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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/3/2018 8:19:14 PM   
Blond_Knight


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Wow you mean he was even more of a dick than he was in Normandy? When he carried a weapon, which was banned for correspondents, and held court with his own personal Maquis cell? Or when he wanted to torture a young German prisoner by "roasting his toes"?

Give me Monty any day. :)

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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/4/2018 9:25:59 PM   
Gilmer


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Where did anyone get the idea that we think Hollywood is great at making accurate movies? We aren't stupid. They make movies thinking they're not stupid, but we don't care as long as they pay to see them. So, we watch them and realize "This is crap" when it is inaccurate. And they know that is what we think, but like I said, as long as they make the money, they don't care.

As for Saving Private Ryan, I wasn't all that enthused about it myself. The opening Landing at Normandy scene seemed realistic, but who wants to watch that over and over? The rest of it was just OK if you ask me. I truly enjoyed Band of Brothers, but refused to watch Pacific because of Hanks' comments about racism and the Pacific War. I can't remember his exact comments and I get that a lot of whites thought, said, and did racist things against the Japanese, but Hanks' comments were something along the lines of, "We want that war because we are racist against the Asians". That is a paraphrasing of what he said, and you can look it up on google what he said. I think he was way over the line.

As for "American-centric", we can argue all day about that. Band of Brothers was about the Airborne in the 506th Regiment of the 101st Airborne. It was a micro-story about American guys, because someone wanted to tell their story. As a matter of fact a lot of British actors played roles in the show, Damian Lewis played arguably the biggest role in the movie and I thought he was excellent. I'm pretty sure Major Winters thought he did great, too. Other actors who are British who played Americans - Matthew Leitch, Shane Taylor, Nicholas Aaron, Philip Barantini, Dexter Fletcher, Ross McCall, Robin Laing, Rick Warden, Michael Fassbender.... I wouldn;t change one of them out for an American. All did great jobs. Not really on topic, but wanted to point it out.



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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/4/2018 10:00:03 PM   
Capitaine

 

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Saving Pvt Ryan wasn't a movie about D-Day and who did the heavy lifting. It was a narrow story about a small group of Rangers on special detail. I don't get comments about it excluding other nationalities. Maybe the media tried to make it a "comprehensive statement", but that wasn't what the movie was about. And yeah it was a little meh after the beginning. I've seen way worse though. But what Hollywood questions is the whole concept of war, and usually asserts an anti-war vibe, but never the basic assumptions about it.

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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/9/2018 8:52:59 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

He doesn't mention TMTSNBN.

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/may/29/antony-beevor-the-greatest-war-movie-ever-and-the-ones-i-cant-bear


warspite1

Coming from someone such as Antony Beevor, this is a really disappointing article.

Spielberg may not even have included them consciously but, during the landing, the blood in the water in the first machine-gunning prompts memories of Jaws, another Spielberg film. And German Tiger tanks can indeed appear like prehistoric monsters, but when the sound effects of their approach later in the film resemble that of the Tyrannosaurus rex in Jurassic Park, it all seems too much.

Seriously? And as for the whole, Saving Private Ryan should have acknowledged the British / Canadian contribution to D-Day chestnut.....


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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/10/2018 12:44:08 PM   
Jevhaddah


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In my humble opinion If yoo want historical then watch a documentary, if yoo want to be entertained watch a film.

Cheers
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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/10/2018 3:34:09 PM   
Capitaine

 

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Films are virtually re-enactments. Documentaries are historical footage. I don't see why the former should be allowed to be fictitious if they're both purporting to be "historical" (and many people [wrongly] gain their "historical understanding" from them).

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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/10/2018 3:43:07 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

Films are virtually re-enactments. Documentaries are historical footage. I don't see why the former should be allowed to be fictitious if they're both purporting to be "historical" (and many people [wrongly] gain their "historical understanding" from them).

It is called artistic license and politically correct history. And propaganda, can't forget that.

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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/20/2018 3:20:40 PM   
Ridcully70

 

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If that's the case then Mr Beevor would really hate Lord Of The Rings because none of it actually happened in real life!

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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/20/2018 4:15:20 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Coming from someone such as Antony Beevor, this is a really disappointing article.



You're right. The article smacks of 'it's all rubbish-everything you enjoyed or thought you enjoyed is rubbish' bitterness. If he really feels that way then he needs to fine another line of work.

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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/20/2018 4:17:40 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight

Thats funny, because its FROM Beevor that Ive learned that Montgomery was a credit-grabbing, over-promise/under-deliver roll-eyes kind of guy.
Now thats in no way to diminish his role in the desert or the Brits conduct in the war.
Actually come to think of it Beevor also comfirmed my belief that Ernest Hemmingway was a class A dick. Such a pompous ass.



Meh. Beevor was late to the party in his opinion of Montgomery. Many of Monty's contemporaries felt that way and made their opinions known back in the day. Beevor just latched on to these old animosities and regurgitated them. Same with Hemingway.

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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/20/2018 4:32:58 PM   
wodin


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I remember him saying Stalingrad (German film) was good, better than enemy at the gates which was the film he was being asked about.

Actually never realised that film was based on a book, until just recently started reading this book that sounded just like the film! Turns out the book had been out awhile, it's also very dark, intense and even hallucinatory.

Stalingrad the loneliest death by C Fromm

< Message edited by wodin -- 6/20/2018 4:43:28 PM >


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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/20/2018 7:44:02 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I remember him saying Stalingrad (German film) was good, better than enemy at the gates which was the film he was being asked about.

I've seen both, and he got at least that much right.

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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/21/2018 3:20:51 PM   
Agathosdaimon


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a good article indeed, i didnt know there was a movie about the battle of river plate.

what is TMTSNBN?

what would be the best WW1 movie do you think? Gallipoli, Passchendaele, All Quiet on the Western Front, Paths of Glory, Beneath Hill 60 (i liked that one alot)
i wonder what he thinks of Waterloo 1970 apart from this and War and Peace in its various film versions- i am still waiting for a proper Napoleonic war epic that - can anyone think of any or is it really that scant for such a significant period?

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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/21/2018 4:05:41 PM   
wosung

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Agathosdaimon

a good article indeed, i didnt know there was a movie about the battle of river plate.

what is TMTSNBN?

what would be the best WW1 movie do you think? Gallipoli, Passchendaele, All Quiet on the Western Front, Paths of Glory, Beneath Hill 60 (i liked that one alot)
i wonder what he thinks of Waterloo 1970 apart from this and War and Peace in its various film versions- i am still waiting for a proper Napoleonic war epic that - can anyone think of any or is it really that scant for such a significant period?


The movie that should not be named?!
I bet it's about two dudes loving the same gal, oh and about a suprise attack in the Pacific... and then another one...

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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/21/2018 5:21:58 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shikai


quote:

ORIGINAL: Agathosdaimon

a good article indeed, i didnt know there was a movie about the battle of river plate.

what is TMTSNBN?

what would be the best WW1 movie do you think? Gallipoli, Passchendaele, All Quiet on the Western Front, Paths of Glory, Beneath Hill 60 (i liked that one alot)
i wonder what he thinks of Waterloo 1970 apart from this and War and Peace in its various film versions- i am still waiting for a proper Napoleonic war epic that - can anyone think of any or is it really that scant for such a significant period?


The movie that should not be named?!
I bet it's about two dudes loving the same gal, oh and about a suprise attack in the Pacific... and then another one...

TMTSNBN? Oh, the horror!

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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/21/2018 5:43:37 PM   
Orm


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I've been thinking... shocking really... anyway.... I've been thinking, what if saving Ryan had a love story instead of the landing part? Private Ryan and Captain Miller are in love with the same woman. And in the end the girl falls in love with Private Ryan. Then the movie skips straight from romance in England to the part where Captain Miller is tasked with saving Ryan, the man that 'stole' his love. And then the movie goes on as it did in reality. This, I think, wouldn't be far from how Hollywood thinks. And if they made that movie instead. Then wouldn't it have been even worse that that TMTSNBM?

What I am trying to say is that the landing sequence is what makes it a decent war flick.

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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/21/2018 6:06:36 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

I've been thinking... shocking really... anyway.... I've been thinking, what if saving Ryan had a love story instead of the landing part? Private Ryan and Captain Miller are in love with the same woman. And in the end the girl falls in love with Private Ryan. Then the movie skips straight from romance in England to the part where Captain Miller is tasked with saving Ryan, the man that 'stole' his love. And then the movie goes on as it did in reality. This, I think, wouldn't be far from how Hollywood thinks. And if they made that movie instead. Then wouldn't it have been even worse that that TMTSNBM?

What I am trying to say is that the landing sequence is what makes it a decent war flick.

Hollywood would make the woman a French Resistance fighter captured by the Nazis (not ordinary Germans - Nazi SS storm-troopers).

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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/21/2018 10:14:23 PM   
ezzler

 

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What I am trying to say is that the landing sequence is what makes it a decent war flick.

i thought there were four standout scenes. Most of the rest, did not care for.

But the four -

1. The landing . Which is awesome. Just awesome.
2. The sniper scene.
3. When the wall falls down and the resting Germans are as surprised as the resting Americans.
4. The moment they find Ryan during an ambush.

5. Honourable mentions - the dog tag scene and the knife fight which the German wins, then just walks out of the building and ignores the other yank clerk.

Shame the premise of the film was so shaky to begin with. It would have been very epic without the mush.

As a brit, i was surprised there was a 'fuss' about no brits in SPR. it came after The patriot made all English murderers. And the enigma monstrosity of a movie. It was mostly newspaper American bashing.
there are no Americans or Canadians in the battle Of Britain. Americans never complained.
Come to think of it, not in Zulu either. Did Beevor mention Zulu? Its the ultimate film to disdain these days. Despite being fairly accurate with the history, if not the true characters.

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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/22/2018 5:12:50 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ezz

...there are no Americans or Canadians in the battle Of Britain. Americans never complained.

warspite1

In Battle of Britain the Canadian actor Christopher Plummer specifically asked to wear the Canada flash on his uniform. There was, iirc, a guy with a New Zealand flash and of course the Poles are shown and the Czechs mentioned. That there is no American character (and many other countries pilots) in the film is hardly surprising given the number of volunteers involved (the Australians contribution perhaps the most lacking - I don't recall an Aussie flash) and it would be impossible to show them all, but they are honoured at the end.

In the Roll Call at end of film (a beautiful piece of music) all pilots - Aussies, Americans, Belgians et al - are recognised. This is a nice touch and is appropriate - the film is about the Battle of Britain after all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLDZkypBHnw




This [recognising other countries contributions] was not the case with Saving Private Ryan. But, as I've said many times, there was simply no need to do this in that film. SPR was not a film about D-Day, it was a story unique to the US following a rule that came in after the death of the Sullivan brothers aboard USS Juneau. Okay, it was set during the events of D-Day but not about D-Day.

The disappointing thing was the mention of Monty. Don't mention British, Canadian and other Allied contribution? Fine and absolutely no problem for the reason mentioned previously. But by the same token why the gratuitous, totally unnecessary slagging off of Monty? A bit pathetic from Spielberg to be honest - and he did similar in Band of Brothers - and as for the hideous, contrived scene where the English guy is talking cockney rhyming slang, that has to be one of the most embarrassing scenes in any war film ever. It would not have been out of place in Pearl Harbor - yes it was that amateurish. Its a good job that Band of Brothers is otherwise unremittingly excellent and this nonsense (such a small part of the film) can be forgiven. In Saving Private Ryan the Monty thing is hardly the end of the world - its just unnecessary.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 6/22/2018 6:20:59 AM >


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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/22/2018 12:04:46 PM   
Agathosdaimon


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what i like in SPR is a detail that i only learnt about later - that the soldier with his hands up that the americans shoot after they have ascended from the beach - that he wasnt speaking german, but czech instead, saying "Please don’t shoot me! I am not German, I am Czech, I didn’t kill anyone! I am Czech!"

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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/22/2018 12:30:54 PM   
wodin


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I liked the fact BoB didn't wash over the fact we also killed prisoners.

Was reading a memoir the other month, a British one about how he witnessed several Germans who had surrendered all sitting down along a grass verge with backs to a hedge, an Allied tank then suddenly pulls off the road only to ride over all their legs. Unlikely any of those survived.

If you win a War you don't get done for War crimes and have to face justice.

< Message edited by wodin -- 6/22/2018 12:31:43 PM >


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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/22/2018 3:21:27 PM   
UP844


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

If you win a War you don't get done for War crimes and have to face justice.


Especially if you don't set up industrialized extermination factories.

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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/22/2018 3:52:58 PM   
rico21


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Wodin, UP844, you are here too.

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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/22/2018 4:59:19 PM   
wodin


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True, but I'm talking about combat soldiers etc. You get into who killed the most innocents then good old Stalin would come on top there!





quote:

ORIGINAL: UP844


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

If you win a War you don't get done for War crimes and have to face justice.


Especially if you don't set up industrialized extermination factories.



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Post #: 57
RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/22/2018 5:01:04 PM   
wodin


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Rico, you still not got it?


I'm everywhere mate I'm looking over your shoulder right now.....


quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21

Wodin, UP844, you are here too.



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Post #: 58
RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/22/2018 5:38:32 PM   
UP844


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As regards to combat troops killing prisoners or enemy soldiers attempting to surrender, it often happened in the heat of battle and I am sure there are countless episodes we will never know about. Labelling the Allies as war criminals looks a bit eccessive.

By the way, did you ever wonder why Allied troops - unlike the representative of the Herrenrasse - were often slowed by cheering civilians?




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RE: Antony Beevor: the greatest war movie ever – and th... - 6/22/2018 6:51:33 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
In Saving Private Ryan the Monty thing is hardly the end of the world - its just unnecessary.


Meh. It's what guys in warzones do-play amateur tactician and 'what if' the battle(s) that they're involved in. What they bandied about was a common point of view. Admittedly, their view was self-centered and a little myopic, but that's what all guys in all uniforms do in their '100 yards of Hell'.

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