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RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 3/18/2020 1:44:16 PM   
fondfoat

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ETF


quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames


quote:

ORIGINAL: sIg3b

Didn´t buy it, because the AI is generally said no to be cut-throat. I am only interested in SP and want a terribly strong Computer opponent.


We got the message on this one; Slitherine coached us to exert a soft AI-hand over The Player. Our intent now is to deliver the opponent back to the Stone Age. Let's see what we can do to make single-player less soft-handed.


Really glad you put resources into other things than an AI. I know that will draw flack but lets face I have been CPU wargaming since 83 and I have NEVER seen an AI that is better than an intermediate player even maybe not even that good. Usually, it is only good for tutorials unless you want to play a cheating AI. Just my two cents. Surely in this day in age you can find a worthy similar opponent.


Surely in this day and age, an AI should be very challenging!!

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Post #: 181
RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 3/19/2020 6:53:07 PM   
Saint Ruth


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Yes, I hear you. The more complicated the game though, the harder the AI is to do. Still, will be making continuous improvements with the AI as with everything else!
/Brian

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Post #: 182
RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 3/28/2020 2:02:58 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fondfoat


quote:

ORIGINAL: ETF


quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames


quote:

ORIGINAL: sIg3b

Didn´t buy it, because the AI is generally said no to be cut-throat. I am only interested in SP and want a terribly strong Computer opponent.


We got the message on this one; Slitherine coached us to exert a soft AI-hand over The Player. Our intent now is to deliver the opponent back to the Stone Age. Let's see what we can do to make single-player less soft-handed.


Really glad you put resources into other things than an AI. I know that will draw flack but lets face I have been CPU wargaming since 83 and I have NEVER seen an AI that is better than an intermediate player even maybe not even that good. Usually, it is only good for tutorials unless you want to play a cheating AI. Just my two cents. Surely in this day in age you can find a worthy similar opponent.


Surely in this day and age, an AI should be very challenging!!

You'd think that--but it's not the case. The US Army still uses Decisive Action, Crucible of Command, and Follow Me as training platforms from West Point Cadet to Captains in the Advance Course to Majors in the Command and General Staff Officer Course. Though they have a rudimentary AI, these training engines are human-vs-human game platforms. Why? Cuz AIs suck.

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RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 3/30/2020 5:38:07 PM   
fondfoat

 

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Not really AI that sucks, but the effort and resources required. The fact that an AI can beat excellent chess players gives you a clue as to what AI could do if we all had beasts of PCs at home. :)

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Post #: 184
RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 3/31/2020 6:17:32 AM   
bcgames


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"A serious problem in planning against American doctrine is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine."

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RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 3/31/2020 6:21:14 AM   
bcgames


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"The reason the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices it on a daily basis."

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RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 3/31/2020 6:55:55 AM   
bcgames


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AI uses rules. Often Leaders/Armies don't use their own rules. This could be that they don't know them. It could be they know them, and change them when they don't apply to the situation. On the other hand, an army might goose-step exactly through their countries stated doctrine. Depends on the day, the unit/organization, and the commander.

More often than not, real human action defies the idea of artificial intelligence. If you assume your opponent is a professional you will be surprised when he kicks your ass because/while being--he is an amateur; opponents are under no obligation to play by any doctrinal rules. Heck, they might not know what they are.

In my opinion, that's why people say AI's suck. An AI that attempts to portray a particular nation's doctrine is a tough task. Why? Because 80% of any army's leadership does not understand the task and purpose of any operation they are directing. They're pulling it out of their ass as each minute passes. Some are good at this, others are not.

Combat is not chess or checkers; it's bedlam. Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you. The last one to make a mistake wins.

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RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 6/14/2020 3:52:04 PM   
Numdydar

 

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I bought it with my Anniversary coupon. Just to support. Have hardly played it at all since there is no campaign. That was a BIG downside for me. I was really hoping for a Campaign for North Africa game but alas this was not it.

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Post #: 188
RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 6/15/2020 4:56:44 AM   
countrboy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

I bought it with my Anniversary coupon. Just to support. Have hardly played it at all since there is no campaign. That was a BIG downside for me. I was really hoping for a Campaign for North Africa game but alas this was not it.


The Operational Art of War IV has a CFNA scenario which is very very good. You can play the entire campaign from the Italian invasion through to Rommel's retreat back to the Mareth Line.

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Post #: 189
RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 6/18/2020 4:36:40 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

I bought it with my Anniversary coupon. Just to support. Have hardly played it at all since there is no campaign. That was a BIG downside for me. I was really hoping for a Campaign for North Africa game but alas this was not it.

Thanks for your support! Thinking about how to do the Campaign for North Africa once again. I think the game engine will be able to make the attempt once Monty's Front capabilities have been realized.

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RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 6/18/2020 4:39:56 AM   
countrboy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bcgames

Thanks for your support! Thinking about how to do the Campaign for North Africa once again. I think the game engine will be able to make the attempt once Monty's Front capabilities have been realized.


That would be great. I too was sad to see no campaign game, but I do recall the explanation that it wasn't possible. If that changes it would be excellent.

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Post #: 191
RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 12/4/2020 2:32:13 AM   
LarryP


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I bought it last night, physical copy too, wish I hadn't.

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Post #: 192
RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 12/4/2020 2:46:57 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryP

I bought it last night, physical copy too, wish I hadn't.

Sorry for your regrets. Can you explain the reasons?

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RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 12/4/2020 4:02:23 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryP

I bought it last night, physical copy too, wish I hadn't.

You bought the game 24 hours ago and now wish you hadn't and thought it necessary to post your disappointment here. What do we need to fix?

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Post #: 194
RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 12/4/2020 6:04:16 PM   
LarryP


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My gosh, your posts were less than two hours apart, I am handicapped and could not get back online until now. I'm sorry to leave you hanging, I posted last night just before a windfall of health issues and life. My fault. I'm sorry.

I don't know where to start so I will just start. I own over 60 Matrix-Slitherine games since about 2005 and this is one of the weirdest of them all to figure out. The tutorial is totally confusing and leads to no real direct path. Using the hotkeys, which are many, some don't work as shown. The war-gamers that I know own many games, not just a few, but many games. It's hard to remember hotkeys when you play a lot of games, so games that we favor use the right mouse click for most options. Your game uses hotkeys mostly, right click brings up information on a stack. It would be nice if a R-Click gave options for all.

Now, already I have opened myself up to an eternal war here, many Matrix gamers look for a fight where there needs not be one. Above I am speaking of war-gamers that "I" know, not all of course, so please, if gamers are looking to disagree, do it nicely. I'm sick of forum fights, hence the reason I stayed off this site for several years. God only knows why I'm here now. If you prefer hotkeys to a right click menu of options, OK. Enjoy. My memory is too short for every game to use hotkeys more than a R-Click menu of options.

The phases are strange to me. It would be nice to have a short description at each phase of what should be done. Also when they play out, the battles for instance, the speed is almost instant. If I missed a setting to delay such, please enlighten me. I am always amazed at how I can be wrong when I think I am not.

The information in the form of tooltips is excellent. I love how much information this game gives. You excelled great in this area. But, every time I highlight a stack, the units show up on the right vertical pane, and I'm always wanting to hover over that pane for tooltips and\or selecting units for moving, but when I move the cursor that direction, it all goes away. I'm just used to other games having that option. John Tiller games are an example of this I believe. I'm used to units on a side pane staying there to manipulate.

My format above is not very professional, I'm sorry it's not better itemized. These are just things off the top of my head. I'm hurrying so you can see I did not post and run. Ask me anything, I will be very happy to respond, and I will try and be more prompt than last night.

When I bought this game, I thought "oh boy, I've wanted a good hex based game like this and it looks like the one." It just seems to leave me hanging with too many questions and not enough guided direction. The graphics are good, so is the sound, menus are nice, and of course the tooltips are perfect for my liking, and I put tooltips above all else in games.

I hope my rambling on helps. If not, I will go away.

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Post #: 195
RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 12/4/2020 6:51:05 PM   
bcgames


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LarryP,

Thanks for the feedback. We are currently working on our Stalingrad game so your "ramblings" are helpful to that cause. If you want to learn how to play the game let's strike up a PBEM and I can "talk" you through it. I suggest The Rats vs The Ram scenario. It's small, short and will teach you 90% of what you need to know.

v/r

bcgames

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RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 12/4/2020 7:32:48 PM   
LarryP


Posts: 3826
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I will try that scenario by myself first and if I need further help I will take you up on your offer. That's very kind of you. I am going to go to that right now. Thank you.

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Post #: 197
RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 12/4/2020 8:13:38 PM   
bcgames


Posts: 2527
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From: Bramble Rose Farm, KS
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Okeedoke. Here's a link to a YouTube video that XTRG did a couple years ago. We've added alot of capability to the engine since then but he does a good job providing an overview on how things work.

Desert War 1940-1942 - Overview Tutorial
https://youtu.be/TygOCryO2ow

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Post #: 198
RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 12/4/2020 9:03:14 PM   
LarryP


Posts: 3826
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Thanks! I need it.

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Post #: 199
RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 12/4/2020 9:12:57 PM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryP

My gosh, your posts were less than two hours apart, I am handicapped and could not get back online until now. I'm sorry to leave you hanging, I posted last night just before a windfall of health issues and life. My fault. I'm sorry.

I don't know where to start so I will just start. I own over 60 Matrix-Slitherine games since about 2005 and this is one of the weirdest of them all to figure out. The tutorial is totally confusing and leads to no real direct path. Using the hotkeys, which are many, some don't work as shown. The war-gamers that I know own many games, not just a few, but many games. It's hard to remember hotkeys when you play a lot of games, so games that we favor use the right mouse click for most options. Your game uses hotkeys mostly, right click brings up information on a stack. It would be nice if a R-Click gave options for all.

Now, already I have opened myself up to an eternal war here, many Matrix gamers look for a fight where there needs not be one. Above I am speaking of war-gamers that "I" know, not all of course, so please, if gamers are looking to disagree, do it nicely. I'm sick of forum fights, hence the reason I stayed off this site for several years. God only knows why I'm here now. If you prefer hotkeys to a right click menu of options, OK. Enjoy. My memory is too short for every game to use hotkeys more than a R-Click menu of options.

The phases are strange to me. It would be nice to have a short description at each phase of what should be done. Also when they play out, the battles for instance, the speed is almost instant. If I missed a setting to delay such, please enlighten me. I am always amazed at how I can be wrong when I think I am not.

The information in the form of tooltips is excellent. I love how much information this game gives. You excelled great in this area. But, every time I highlight a stack, the units show up on the right vertical pane, and I'm always wanting to hover over that pane for tooltips and\or selecting units for moving, but when I move the cursor that direction, it all goes away. I'm just used to other games having that option. John Tiller games are an example of this I believe. I'm used to units on a side pane staying there to manipulate.

My format above is not very professional, I'm sorry it's not better itemized. These are just things off the top of my head. I'm hurrying so you can see I did not post and run. Ask me anything, I will be very happy to respond, and I will try and be more prompt than last night.

When I bought this game, I thought "oh boy, I've wanted a good hex based game like this and it looks like the one." It just seems to leave me hanging with too many questions and not enough guided direction. The graphics are good, so is the sound, menus are nice, and of course the tooltips are perfect for my liking, and I put tooltips above all else in games.

I hope my rambling on helps. If not, I will go away.



I've mentioned before that if we could actually watch the units moving etc like say Command Ops it would make the turn, infact, make the game much easier to understand and work out what's actually happening. When I heard this was WEGO it made me interested but currently the beauty of watching wego turn is negated by the instant unit jumps. This one change would make a massive difference. Make things so much clearer, add tension and excitement, fire imagination and gets the game to show what's great about WEGO.

Also agree with Larry wish unit side bar stayed rather than disappearing with a move of the mouse

< Message edited by wodin -- 12/4/2020 9:23:02 PM >


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RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 12/4/2020 9:16:46 PM   
LarryP


Posts: 3826
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Yes!

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RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 12/4/2020 10:23:06 PM   
bcgames


Posts: 2527
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From: Bramble Rose Farm, KS
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Animated moving counters is on the nice to have list for Stalingrad...after bugs and balancing.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 12/4/2020 10:28:19 PM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryP

Also when they play out, the battles for instance, the speed is almost instant. If I missed a setting to delay such, please enlighten me.

Hit the plus button to increase the speed of the playback and the minus button to slow the film speed down. Keep hitting the button of choice until the playback is at the speed you want--snail to jack rabbit. When I play I prefer to step thru the turn using the >| button.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by bcgames -- 12/4/2020 10:31:43 PM >


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Post #: 203
RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 12/5/2020 2:10:57 AM   
LarryP


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The speed buttons do work well. Funny at first I did not see them, they kind of blended into the background.

Well I am doing better. I won a Tactical Victory in the Bardia, the #1 scenario, 80/120. Things make MUCH more sense after spending more time playing and on YouTube. This game is different, but it is good. I'm glad I stuck with it.

I am now officially glad I bought this game.

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Post #: 204
RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 12/5/2020 2:42:21 AM   
bcgames


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That's the ticket.

Your eyes are new to this game and game system--that makes your views very important to us. If/when you can share your views about the system as you travel along we'd love to hear them. We want to improve how we introduce new players to the game.

Contributions-to-date:

* Our tutorial needs hard work to be helpful.

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RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 12/5/2020 5:25:12 PM   
LarryP


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What's really funny is when I first started playing this game, I thought the phases were many and varied, but there are only two. Setup, execution. My new eyes were really confused. I had just come from SGS Afrika Korps from Steam, and it has a bunch of phases. I thought this was the same. Nope.

Funny how a new player can have so many pre conceived notions about things and most can be 100% wrong. That's the story of my life. Thanks for putting up with me and helping, especially offering to do a PBEM when you must be very busy. That's very kind of you.

< Message edited by LarryP -- 12/5/2020 5:26:41 PM >

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RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 12/6/2020 1:44:57 AM   
bcgames


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Muscle memory

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RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 1/2/2021 7:12:21 PM   
Talon_XBMCX


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Status: online
I recently purchased the game and initially wasn’t a fan. The reasons:

1. The system was new and from the early reviews and discussions, it didn’t seem something I would like. I was wrong 😊

2. Then there was the monster stack issue. IMHO, this is more of a visual preference. They make the map look messy, confusing, and it can seem overwhelming. However, after playing through the tutorial a couple of times, I love the scale and the options the various units provide. As some others have mentioned, don’t change it too much (I wouldn’t change it at all) or it will completely change the game mechanics into something that already exists. As an armchair commander, I want the flexibility the system provides.

3. Supply mechanism – didn’t like it to begin with but this is the great differentiator (see #1 above). It really adds to the strategy and choosing when and where to use it can make or break the scenario.

4. We-Go – Haven’t been a fan (I’m a JT Panzer Campaign and GG WitP/WitE/WitW fan) but this adds a different dimension to the game. The best laid plans can go very wrong based on what your opponent does compared to what you expected them to do. I think a visual tweak … seeing the units move rather than jump hex to hex would be preferable. I do like the combat review, but I can see where in a larger battle that could be very tedious. Maybe a larger combat summary in addition to the review?

I could go on with some other things, but what it really boils down to is the documentation needs to be laid out better. I started with the Tutorial, but it didn’t give me enough. It left some important things out and made me frustrated. After I read the Quick Start Guide, most of my confusion and frustration were gone so playing through the Tutorial a second time made much more sense. I don’t expect the tutorial to give me everything, but without the Quick Guide explaining the sequence of play, supply, GUI interface, etc., I wasn’t grasping the tutorial. I would combine those into a single Player Guide or preface the tutorial with “READ THE QUICK START FIRST!” in big, bolded, underlined print! 😉

I have read all the manuals, still playing through the tutorial, but now have a complete appreciation for the system, the approach, the interface, and am really becoming a fan of this system. In fact, I like it a lot! I would like campaign(s), would really like to see the titles and battles expanded, and look forward to working with the Scenario Editor.
Thanks for a great game and sticking to your system design. There is a real gem here. Clean up the documentation and I think it will go a long way in helping to expand the fan base. Your tool tips and mouse overs are fantastic, but the documentation really needs some improvement. And being a developer myself, I know that is usually the last thing we do and do it to get it done! 😉 And having QA done on the documentation doesn’t hurt either. That second set of eyes that isn’t familiar with the what and the how can easily pick up on that which we inadvertently leave out.

I will be a Day-1 supporter from now on!

(in reply to bcgames)
Post #: 208
RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 1/3/2021 1:55:32 AM   
LarryP


Posts: 3826
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I'm back playing Desert War after a huge romp with WitW. DW can't be beat for it's tooltips and information. Tons of info in every way, it's the best I've played for that!!!

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Post #: 209
RE: Desert War: Why Didn't You Buy? - 1/3/2021 3:48:34 AM   
bcgames


Posts: 2527
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Bramble Rose Farm, KS
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Talon_XBMCX

I recently purchased the game and initially wasn’t a fan. The reasons:

1. The system was new and from the early reviews and discussions, it didn’t seem something I would like. I was wrong 😊

2. Then there was the monster stack issue. IMHO, this is more of a visual preference. They make the map look messy, confusing, and it can seem overwhelming. However, after playing through the tutorial a couple of times, I love the scale and the options the various units provide. As some others have mentioned, don’t change it too much (I wouldn’t change it at all) or it will completely change the game mechanics into something that already exists. As an armchair commander, I want the flexibility the system provides.

3. Supply mechanism – didn’t like it to begin with but this is the great differentiator (see #1 above). It really adds to the strategy and choosing when and where to use it can make or break the scenario.

4. We-Go – Haven’t been a fan (I’m a JT Panzer Campaign and GG WitP/WitE/WitW fan) but this adds a different dimension to the game. The best laid plans can go very wrong based on what your opponent does compared to what you expected them to do. I think a visual tweak … seeing the units move rather than jump hex to hex would be preferable. I do like the combat review, but I can see where in a larger battle that could be very tedious. Maybe a larger combat summary in addition to the review?

I could go on with some other things, but what it really boils down to is the documentation needs to be laid out better. I started with the Tutorial, but it didn’t give me enough. It left some important things out and made me frustrated. After I read the Quick Start Guide, most of my confusion and frustration were gone so playing through the Tutorial a second time made much more sense. I don’t expect the tutorial to give me everything, but without the Quick Guide explaining the sequence of play, supply, GUI interface, etc., I wasn’t grasping the tutorial. I would combine those into a single Player Guide or preface the tutorial with “READ THE QUICK START FIRST!” in big, bolded, underlined print! 😉

I have read all the manuals, still playing through the tutorial, but now have a complete appreciation for the system, the approach, the interface, and am really becoming a fan of this system. In fact, I like it a lot! I would like campaign(s), would really like to see the titles and battles expanded, and look forward to working with the Scenario Editor.
Thanks for a great game and sticking to your system design. There is a real gem here. Clean up the documentation and I think it will go a long way in helping to expand the fan base. Your tool tips and mouse overs are fantastic, but the documentation really needs some improvement. And being a developer myself, I know that is usually the last thing we do and do it to get it done! 😉 And having QA done on the documentation doesn’t hurt either. That second set of eyes that isn’t familiar with the what and the how can easily pick up on that which we inadvertently leave out.

I will be a Day-1 supporter from now on!


Thanks for taking the time to provide your review/feedback on Desert War. It's always a welcome event to get other's perspectives on the good, the bad and the ugly of the game and the game system. Our players have made Desert War better and have set the stage for an even better performance of Stalingrad. Your recommendations on documentation are heard and we have been working to make it better. Our Stalingrad ALPHA testers have been pointing out the holes in the information boat and we are plugging them as we go. I for one am enjoying this journey to find the best solutions.

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