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division routed is indeed destroyed - 5/15/2018 5:31:13 PM   
MrBlizzard


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battleground italy 43-45 under last beta 1.02.15

turn 54, 5th poland inf division, just desembarked is attacked by overwhelming german forces and routed.

But instead of returning to central Italy with some 6k losses, as I expected, I find it completeley depleted (TOE 0) in Tunisia.

what happened?


thanks




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RE: division routed is indeed destroyed - 5/15/2018 5:35:09 PM   
MrBlizzard


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Here is the way i found that poor division.
It has been completely destroyed

Edit: another question why my starting CV appears so low in the combat screen (i.e. poland div is at 47 CV)?
that division was a full strenght one, I expected some 120 CV starting value !
Is there some malus for it has just landed or because it's against armor?

Thanks!







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< Message edited by MrBlizzard -- 5/15/2018 5:57:19 PM >


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RE: division routed is indeed destroyed - 5/15/2018 9:24:07 PM   
cfulbright

 

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Mr. Blizzard,

It was driven into the sea.

Cary

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RE: division routed is indeed destroyed - 5/15/2018 10:40:02 PM   
LiquidSky


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A routed unit needs a hex to rout to. In this case the nearest eligible hex is too far away. If one was available, it would not have been destroyed.

The CV of a unit is just the combination of all elements that make up the division. As the unit now has no elements in it....it has no CV.

You can tell it has no elements in it as the RDY (ready) column is showing 0's. All those elements are now in German POW camps, and as you will be needing Polish manpower to build the division back up, it will probably never be full strength again.

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RE: division routed is indeed destroyed - 5/16/2018 6:16:29 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard

...

Edit: another question why my starting CV appears so low in the combat screen (i.e. poland div is at 47 CV)?
that division was a full strenght one, I expected some 120 CV starting value !
Is there some malus for it has just landed or because it's against armor?

Thanks!

...



CV calculation is crudely to add up all the combat elements in the unit that gives you your baseline, lets say your 120.

This is then adjusted as the various combat related rolls take place, since you are using AFHQ as the command you have a problem. All your rolls are leader value/12 not /10 if you'd been using a corps command structure. So that is going to cost you some CV.

You can lose CV for missing trucks (this is a common source of both CV and MP loss)

Weather - not applicable in this case as the ground weather was clear (remember that only the ground conditions affect ground combat and the air conditions only affect air combat)

You lose 1% off your CV due to every 1% missing ammunition. This again can be deadly, especially as you have the AFHQ leader problem above and the supply/re-supply system is very leader roll dependent

Your cv will drop as you pick up disruptions before the combat actually closes, your opponent (wisely) used a lot of artillery so you may well have shed cv as the combat resolution was worked out - the number at the top of the battle report is the cv left when all the fighting is over and used to determine win/loss.

I'd suspect your big issue was the AFHQ command. I often find I have low value leaders there (their leadership rolls are not very important for the Allies), you'll have the effect diluted by range and by /12 not /10. Thats a lot of missed checks.



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RE: division routed is indeed destroyed - 5/16/2018 12:06:32 PM   
MrBlizzard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



A routed unit needs a hex to rout to. In this case the nearest eligible hex is too far away. If one was available, it would not have been destroyed.

The CV of a unit is just the combination of all elements that make up the division. As the unit now has no elements in it....it has no CV.

You can tell it has no elements in it as the RDY (ready) column is showing 0's. All those elements are now in German POW camps, and as you will be needing Polish manpower to build the division back up, it will probably never be full strength again.



Thanks for answering LiquidSky,
I've a doubt that the div distruction could depend from distance because I had a very similar situation earlier in war as you can see in the picture attached;
A brigade was routed from beached in Fano and landed in Vasto (15 hexes of distance) with 27% of TOE left.
The other brigade was incredibly routed to Tuscany !! it made the complete tour of Italy seas , adriatic, ionio, tyrrenum to land to another beachead in Tuscany!


Now 5th Poland div could have landed in Fano (it's same distance, 15 hexes, and very is enough place for it)



Couldn't be a problem of temporary port capacity instead?
this division has arrived this turn, maybe can't use the port the same turn to flee?




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< Message edited by MrBlizzard -- 5/16/2018 12:32:16 PM >


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RE: division routed is indeed destroyed - 5/16/2018 12:20:53 PM   
MrBlizzard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard

...

Edit: another question why my starting CV appears so low in the combat screen (i.e. poland div is at 47 CV)?
that division was a full strenght one, I expected some 120 CV starting value !
Is there some malus for it has just landed or because it's against armor?

Thanks!

...



CV calculation is crudely to add up all the combat elements in the unit that gives you your baseline, lets say your 120.

This is then adjusted as the various combat related rolls take place, since you are using AFHQ as the command you have a problem. All your rolls are leader value/12 not /10 if you'd been using a corps command structure. So that is going to cost you some CV.

You can lose CV for missing trucks (this is a common source of both CV and MP loss)

Weather - not applicable in this case as the ground weather was clear (remember that only the ground conditions affect ground combat and the air conditions only affect air combat)

You lose 1% off your CV due to every 1% missing ammunition. This again can be deadly, especially as you have the AFHQ leader problem above and the supply/re-supply system is very leader roll dependent

Your cv will drop as you pick up disruptions before the combat actually closes, your opponent (wisely) used a lot of artillery so you may well have shed cv as the combat resolution was worked out - the number at the top of the battle report is the cv left when all the fighting is over and used to determine win/loss.

I'd suspect your big issue was the AFHQ command. I often find I have low value leaders there (their leadership rolls are not very important for the Allies), you'll have the effect diluted by range and by /12 not /10. Thats a lot of missed checks.




Hi loki,
my commander in combat was Gavin (IV US Corp) not AFHQ command (Eisenhower). You can see it in the first pic in this thread.
The division was reassigned to AFHQ just after the battle and destruction, after reforming in Tunisia.

The very low starting combat value couldn't be instead a problem bacause Gavin was at sea at the moment of the battle?
Or because the division had just desembarked, so it had a sort of penalty?

Germans made two spoiling hasty attacks like this one in pic attached before 5th Polish division being routed,
And starting comabat value was very different each time (i.e. in first combat it had only 15).


Thanks everybody for your help, I'm learning a lot reading this forum!







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< Message edited by MrBlizzard -- 5/16/2018 12:26:30 PM >


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RE: division routed is indeed destroyed - 5/16/2018 12:44:03 PM   
loki100


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ah ok


a HQ that is offshore but in command range will add use the appropriate leadership scores for all tests but won't commit any Support Units (since they are still off on the seas).

My suspicions lie in how the range of leadership checks interact. You can sometimes gain more supply/ammunition after a battle (there is an in-turn resupply routine) if its available locally. I'd guess (to keep things vague ) that the supply on the beachhead fed into the gain of cv after round 1.

It is possible that the second and third attacks burnt off this local supply so you started to suffer from the ammunition malus. Equally the earlier attacks will have caused disruptions (as well as damaged and actual lost elements) and those elements can't recover till the next supply phase.

As you are on a beach-head there is actually a final cv shift in your favour to represent a last ditch desparate defence (Anzio), you'll see a clue to this in a combat that ends with much higher defensive losses than you might expect despite winning (or surviving). That probably explains the increase from 15 in the first battle (you didn't need the bonus or to pay the price in losses) to 47 in the battle you lost.

It looks like your opponent has managed this sequence with some skill in that he has rotated and brought in a tank and artillery heavy force for the final attack.

So what could you have done?

Well first thing I note is no ground support on your side. You have to allocate GS to naval invasions - pref direct to the corps involved. That would have disrupted him before his troops got close. Second ground attack - interdiction around the landings. This does two nice things.

It raises the MP cost to move into/out of those hexes - helps invalidate the trick of rotating your opponent has done. And, even better, generates interdiction on the way to the battlefield. That will reduce their CV very nicely.

Final issue is one of unit placement. If both your TFs were in an adjacent hex that gives you more naval guns - realise this is tricky on an invasion turn but its worth looking for. I forget if in the B-I scenario you have a third TF? If so, even if its not actually part of the invasion, you can always put it offshore, the guns are very welcome, esp as you have no ground SUs available.



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RE: division routed is indeed destroyed - 5/17/2018 8:09:42 AM   
MrBlizzard


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Thanks for the useful advices!
What you mean for adding ground support to invasion? To land an HQ with artillery attached in the first wave instead than a combat unit?
I thought, and I made a big mistake, that my opponent couldn't attack my beachhead in the landing turn with a strong force.
Instead he managed to move from gotic line 3 strong mobile units for 15 hexes and do a deliberate.
So I left Gavin HQ for the second wave, together with 2 other inf divisions.

For the point about naval support units, in battleground italy unfortunately you have just one TF unit after genuary 1944 because of a bug. I described the problem here
Naval support in B.I.





< Message edited by MrBlizzard -- 5/17/2018 8:14:14 AM >


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RE: division routed is indeed destroyed - 5/17/2018 9:22:04 AM   
loki100


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Should have been clearer, I meant air units on the ground support mission.

This is one of those times when it is worth manual allocation of some air units to this task (so they don't spend their air miles doing something else) and to allocate at the corps level (again so they don't go elsewhere). Its invaluable to ensure the actual landing goes ashore (if its contested) and also really helps to protect you against any immediate retaliation - as the only support units that will be engaged are those directly attached to the combat units.

Again I'm not sure about BI, but useful attachments are those British SAS brigades (which have a high cv value), AT units and - if any are spare - SP artillery. But certainly an infantry and AT unit can be very helpful attachments.

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RE: division routed is indeed destroyed - 5/17/2018 3:45:58 PM   
MrBlizzard


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Thanks for explanations Loki and everybody, hoping to save the remaining beachhead hex with your advices , we'll see

Returning on the topic I read the manual to try to understand why my 5th polish division was destroyed instead of simply routing.
as far as I understand in paragraphs 15.10.4 and 15.11.1 it says that the unit should shatter during the displacement only if:
> is isolated, and it is seems it was not my case because it had 2 temporary ports on he beachhead at disposal to link with the supply net
> is more than 24 hexes far away from a city/port linked to rail and my unit was just 17 hexes far away from Ancona port

any idea


Edit> the sea was not interdicted by axis

< Message edited by MrBlizzard -- 5/17/2018 3:49:30 PM >


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RE: division routed is indeed destroyed - 5/17/2018 7:19:04 PM   
MrBlizzard


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Hi guys, got 2 news, one good and one bad

the good one is a very good one, the beachhead resisted to the german juggernaut
the bad one that I put hundreds of planes in ground support to IV Corps but only 26 managed to fly , in the first comabt no one could fly
what could be the reason of a so poor air support?






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RE: division routed is indeed destroyed - 5/17/2018 7:53:57 PM   
loki100


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for ground support there is a frustrating quirk. They still need to be in range and this is not obvious - you can attach planes that can't reach to a HQ - equally if you attach to a high command not all planes will be able to reach the same hex

One neat trick is to test range using a GA - interdiction mission, this will allow you to see which planes can reach. Detach those, create the GS and attach that cluster of planes.

Its one of those bits of setting AD that everyone gets caught out over sooner or later.

A second trick is to mostly use longer range FB on your GS missions. I know reckon that the British mosquito FBs are as good as Hurricanes set to that role and they are very long ranged - and you often have a lot of them sat around.

But my guess would be that your allocated air units are out of range for where the combat took place?

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RE: division routed is indeed destroyed - 5/17/2018 8:23:14 PM   
MrBlizzard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

for ground support there is a frustrating quirk. They still need to be in range and this is not obvious - you can attach planes that can't reach to a HQ - equally if you attach to a high command not all planes will be able to reach the same hex

One neat trick is to test range using a GA - interdiction mission, this will allow you to see which planes can reach. Detach those, create the GS and attach that cluster of planes.

Its one of those bits of setting AD that everyone gets caught out over sooner or later.

A second trick is to mostly use longer range FB on your GS missions. I know reckon that the British mosquito FBs are as good as Hurricanes set to that role and they are very long ranged - and you often have a lot of them sat around.

But my guess would be that your allocated air units are out of range for where the combat took place?


yeah I suspect many planes were out of range, I've got two temporary level 3 airfields near Fano, so planes seemed to barely arrive but probably they were barely out of range.
Now I'll make them fly with auxiliary tanks to be sure
many medium level bombers, like B/25, were also assigned to directive, surely on range, but didn't fly too...

I managed to put in action also another of your advices building some good air interdiction on enemy panzer stack.
I think in the image is possible to appreciate the effect, no planes seem be flying but there are many enemy squads/devices disrupted
in your experience is this air interdiction effect when they attacked?






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< Message edited by MrBlizzard -- 5/17/2018 8:26:14 PM >


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RE: division routed is indeed destroyed - 5/17/2018 9:06:42 PM   
loki100


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yes, its hard to see the impact of interdiction as if you initially hit an empty hex there is no 'battle' as such. So losses that then happen in the enemy movement turn are not shown directly but you are right you can get a feel for this by looking at a subsequent battle.

One good way to get a feel for how this works is to play Breakout and Pursuit solitaire. Set up a range of interdictions as the allies and then as the German practice moving different types of units through those hexes. The impact of 6+ on Pzr divisions is devastating

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RE: division routed is indeed destroyed - 5/24/2018 8:23:11 PM   
MrBlizzard


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Hi, after some more turns I managed to answer to myself on this topic (why the poland division was shattered instead than routed as stated in the report).
I want to share here, maybe somebody could be interested in future.

After some turns, my remaning allied troops in Veneto beachead were defeated too and routed after a month of fightings.
when the definitive defeat came I had three infantry divisions there and a mulberry port.
In the combat screen all of them resulted just routed but:
- two of the three divisions were really routed to Fano (so the shattering wasn't a distance problem)
- the third division was destroyed and reformed in tunis

My conclusion is that the mulberry port capacity (level 4, 25% damaged) could permit just two division to flee, the third was shattered not having enough capacity left to embark.





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RE: division routed is indeed destroyed - 5/28/2018 1:19:19 AM   
barkhorn45

 

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you can also check the range by going to the air transfer screen and check the range rings

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RE: division routed is indeed destroyed - 5/29/2018 10:06:03 AM   
MrBlizzard


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I suspect it could be misleading.
AFAIK circle range doesn't take account of staging base.
So battle sites were inside circle range but no plane showed up in support.

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RE: division routed is indeed destroyed - 5/29/2018 12:17:10 PM   
Helpless


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quote:

So battle sites were inside circle range but no plane showed up in support.


One of the most common reason of missing GS, is that estimated initial odds are not "low" enough for the defender, so no air support is being called.

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RE: division routed is indeed destroyed - 5/29/2018 1:07:52 PM   
MrBlizzard


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Interesting, I didn't know.

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