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RE: West Wall - Holland 44

 
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RE: West Wall - Holland 44 - 5/23/2018 5:00:27 PM   
700851McCall

 

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I've played this one a couple of times in the dim and distant past (not as far back as 1924 though ;))and attempted the full Market Garden op both times. It's a bit too easy as the Allies, mainly because the German does not put enough pressure on 1st AB divs landing zones near Oosterbeek and the Allies have too much scope for movement of their mechanised units, they can move off road which wasn't the case historically, for the most part the ground was too boggy. The Allies can also put far more units on the Eindhoven-Nijmegan -Arnhem road than was actually possible.

A house rule re movement of mech units off road and a stacking limit on the roads, coupled with some reprogramming to direct more German forces to capture the supply point near Arnhem/Oosterbeek would make it more of a challenge and a little more realistic I think. 1st AB has it far easier north of the Rhine than they did historically.

(in reply to Szilard)
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RE: West Wall - Holland 44 - 5/23/2018 9:13:56 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Well, Trey is still around and works on WitE/W. I sent him a message to see if he might have any input on any of this.

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RE: West Wall - Holland 44 - 5/23/2018 9:28:13 PM   
Nicholas Bell

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Szilard
Historically, I don't know why Rotterdam, Den Haag etc would be considered tasty objectives in the larger scheme of things, but acknowledge I could be missing something.


The Germans planned to open the dykes and flood the country if the Allies advanced further, and the Allies were aware of this.

Regarding improvements to the scenario, I think that while one might tweak the edges, the real problem is thinking the AI can handle a complicated defensive situation like this. Mike is too experienced and thorough to be challenged by Elmer and needs to play against a human to further hone his skills.


< Message edited by Nicholas Bell -- 5/23/2018 9:33:07 PM >

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RE: West Wall - Holland 44 - 5/23/2018 11:02:34 PM   
MikeJ19


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Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the comments and thoughts - and for reaching out to Trey.

I have done a little bit - emphasis on little bit - of research about the situation in Holland. It amazes me that given the amount of divisions the Allies had in Holland in mid-September that it took until well into 1945 to complete the liberation of Holland. I have found some of the dates for the liberation of cities in Holland - thanks to wikipedia (I know this is not a great source, but it is one that gave me data). Below is a look at some of the liberation dates on the West side of the AO.




Attachment (1)

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Mike

Retired Gunner

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Post #: 124
RE: West Wall - Holland 44 - 5/23/2018 11:03:15 PM   
MikeJ19


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Here are the dates on the East side - different scale as I was able to zoom in a bit.




Attachment (1)

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Mike

Retired Gunner

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RE: West Wall - Holland 44 - 5/23/2018 11:15:23 PM   
MikeJ19


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From some of my reading, before and after the game, I have come to realize that the 21st Army Group was very tired, low on supplies and ready for a break.

I got the following quote from the Juno Beach Centre:

"After the Battle of the Scheldt the First Canadian Army prepared to winter. For three months, between November 8th, 1944, and February 8th, 1945, Canadians were not involved in any large-scale operation. Rest was more than welcome. The 3rd Infantry Division and the 2nd Armoured Brigade had been fighting since early June, other units since July."

In reading about Market Garden, it was clear that the Allies were facing supply shortages across the front. Monty wanted to be the main effort and get a priority on supplies. Of course, so did the other Army Group Commanders.

From what I can gather, the situation facing Monty at the start of this scenario is tired divisions with low supply. Market Garden was an attempt to force a crossing over the Rhine and boost Monty's chances at getting more supplies.

In a scenario like this one, it is very difficult to replicate these issues. Trey did a great job with keeping supply low. Which forces the Allied player into some difficult decisions. If the German AI had been more patient in the Breskens pocket and fought a hard delaying action - which is difficult for most of us to do - I would have had a harder time there. This would have made my subsequent attacks towards Arnhem both later and more difficult.

I would be interested in playing this against a human player in the Fall, with me taking on the Germans.

I think it would also be very interesting to see what could be done to add the overextended supply threshold to the scenario - as it would have prevented the attack that I launched towards Arnhem. Instead the Allied player would have to really look at rotating units in and out of the better supplied areas to keep desertions low. This would be quite the challenge, and potentially very rewarding if successful.



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Mike

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RE: West Wall - Holland 44 - 5/24/2018 9:43:42 PM   
WildCatNL


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Hi Mike,

great AAR. Truly enjoyed reading this one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeJ19
It amazes me that given the amount of divisions the Allies had in Holland in mid-September that it took until well into 1945 to complete the liberation of Holland.


Liberating Holland was not a strategic objective for the Allies, especially after Antwerp had been seized. Furthermore, the terrain, especially in the west and northwest of the Netherlands, is ill suited to maneuver. It might be flat, but has a dense network of ditches and canals. Part of the terrain also had been prepared to be flooded / inundated (Dutch 'water linie').

William

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William
On Target Simulations LLC

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Post #: 127
RE: West Wall - Holland 44 - 5/24/2018 11:03:53 PM   
Szilard

 

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It's a bit interesting to look at the "Notes on the Operations of 21 Army Group" prepared in Sep 1945.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a640838.pdf

To the extent that this accurately describes the original plans, the intent was to establish 30 Corps on a line Arnhem - north to Apeldoorn - northwest to Nunspeet (then on the "Zuider Zee" as the Brits still called it), positioning for a push eastwards into North German Plain.

(Slightly earlier plans had something vague about pushing a division or maybe a corps if necessary westwards to Rotterdam etc.)

So Arnhem was just the southern anchor of the actual objective line.

Despite this, the doc includes the amusing "90% successful" claim ...

< Message edited by Szilard -- 5/24/2018 11:27:49 PM >

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RE: West Wall - Holland 44 - 5/25/2018 1:44:14 AM   
Szilard

 

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And a wealth of fascinating detail in The Administrative History of 21 Army Group: http://web.archive.org/web/20100901095232/http://www.movcon.org.uk/History/Documents/DID/D-MCHS%200514.htm

On a quick read I get the impression that supply availability wasn't so much the problem, versus getting supplies forward in the face of road congestion and German successes in cutting the LoC.

(in reply to Szilard)
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RE: West Wall - Holland 44 - 5/25/2018 2:12:45 AM   
MikeJ19


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W1ll14m.

Thanks. I'm glad that you enjoyed the AAR, I had fun putting it together. Good points. I've had the pleasure of visiting Holland a couple of times and the canals are everywhere!

Szilard,

Great stuff. I'm going to enjoying looking into the links. Thanks for sharing.

Have a great day,


_____________________________

Mike

Retired Gunner

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RE: West Wall - Holland 44 - 5/27/2018 11:35:30 PM   
sapper32


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Great read MikeJ19 thanks for the AAR

Ian

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The battle of Medjerda is almost forgotten,but was fought against highly disciplined German troops and blasted a route straight to Tunis it was a perfect infiltration battle and should be remembered as the best fought British battle of the war.

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RE: West Wall - Holland 44 - 5/28/2018 12:33:53 AM   
MikeJ19


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Ian,

Glad you liked it. Have a good day,

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Mike

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Post #: 132
RE: West Wall - Holland dutch VICTORY POINTS - 7/3/2018 3:16:59 PM   
wpurdom

 

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"Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics."
There's a simple reason for all those Dutch victory points, starting with Rotterdam. Rotterdam is the largest port in Europe, Antwerp is the second largest. It was similar in 1939. All those other dutch victory points up that way are connected with lines of communications to main Allied armies and/or threatening Rotterdam.

Monty's whole campaign was pretty much a strategic blind alley. What was holding the Allies up in mid-September was 2/3's short supplies and 1/3 German resistance. What he needed to do was to make the amazingly intact Antwerp port operational ASAP. If he could take Rotterdam as well as as lines of communications, the Germans would be in a situation like March 1, 1945 with only a thin shell of resistance holding back the Allied tide and reinforcements from the East would have had to be committed to holding the line?

In contrast, what would a couple of bridges across the Rhine at the end of a long, rickety supply line have done? not much unless he controlled the entire city of Arnhem and some of the surroundings. Merely made the Germans commit somewhat more troops to contain a bridgehead rather than hold a river line.

(in reply to MikeJ19)
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