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RE: More adventures in Russia ( D21.v.4.6 )

 
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RE: More adventures in Russia ( D21.v.4.6 ) - 5/15/2018 8:58:26 PM   
Nicholas Bell

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
Do TOAW eastern front scenarios have an element that works against SOviet runaway defences evacuating everything in the west and build a wall of steel somewhere between the Daugava-Dniepr line and the Leningrad/Moscow/Voronesh/Rostov line?
Because if the russian player doesn't let the huge pockets happen, the Red Army will be much stronger than historical come fall 1941.


I believe there are minor incentives, but there is no sudden-death victory forcing the Soviet player to defend forward or counterattack per Stalin's directive. But more importantly, D21 is designed to be played against the Soviet AI, which is why you are seeing what you see. Elmer (the AI) is not as good on defense as offensive, as he doesn't know when to retreat until he lacks supply. And then sometimes not even then. So large pockets do occur - check out some of the other completed AARs.

What you will also see in these AARs is none run historically. Those that run out have all been Axis victories. The ability of the player to know exact dates and effects of mud and winter, when supply will decline and increase, rail conversation rates, etc make it simply for the player to avoid the historical German mistakes. Inevitably the Germans are stronger in 1942 and able to pocket/grind down the Soviet AI who just gets weaker (although never gives up!).

Of course there would be a totally different outcome against a human player.

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 91
RE: More adventures in Russia ( D21.v.4.6 ) - 5/15/2018 9:21:14 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

The ability of the player to know exact dates and effects of mud and winter, when supply will decline and increase, rail conversation rates, etc make it simply for the player to avoid the historical German mistakes. Inevitably the Germans are stronger in 1942 and able to pocket/grind down the Soviet AI who just gets weaker (although never gives up!).

Gosh, when you put it that way I don't feel so superior to the Soviets anymore. But you're right.

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Post #: 92
RE: More adventures in Russia ( D21.v.4.6 ) - 5/16/2018 12:15:49 AM   
MikeJ19


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Larry,

I'm not much of an AC/DC fan. However, I do like how you play and write AARs...

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Post #: 93
RE: More adventures in Russia ( D21.v.4.6 ) - 5/16/2018 10:34:39 AM   
DanNeely

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nicholas Bell

What you will also see in these AARs is none run historically. Those that run out have all been Axis victories. The ability of the player to know exact dates and effects of mud and winter, when supply will decline and increase, rail conversation rates, etc make it simply for the player to avoid the historical German mistakes. Inevitably the Germans are stronger in 1942 and able to pocket/grind down the Soviet AI who just gets weaker (although never gives up!).



That's not true, there've been a number that were abandoned in late 41/early 42 when it was clear that the Axis player had fallen significantly behind historical progress levels.

Humans however can just keep trying until they eventually do get it right; more and more practice does eventually pay off. eg I think it wasn't until try #3 that Larry managed to get significantly ahead of the historical power curve.

The longest running AARs were also done under older versions of the scenario where Elmers defenses of Leningrad and Sevastopol had major problems, punching them out before the 1st winter is a lot harder now than it was before.

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Post #: 94
RE: More adventures in Russia ( D21.v.4.6 ) - 5/16/2018 7:38:28 PM   
700851McCall

 

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That's true in my case. In my first attempt I played up to turn 99 but it had become a stagmire and I was unable to make further progress on any front, I took Sevastopol but failed to take Leningrad, Moscow or Rostov and had little chance of doing so in 1942.

There's no way the PO would ever have captured Berlin by '45, but even with all the advantages mentioned I did fail to beat it on first play through. And the historical Germans only got to have one play through.


(in reply to DanNeely)
Post #: 95
RE: More adventures in Russia ( D21.v.4.6 ) - 5/16/2018 7:47:42 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

There's no way the PO would ever have captured Berlin by '45

Enquiring minds want to know how you figured this out....you have some kind of proof or
just your best estimate based on how they had been performing previously or somebody
told you that or you found a message in a bottle that said as much or you had a dream
in which the game went to the end and the PO was helpless or what.

I imagine that the PO wouldn't be able to capture Berlin by the end of the game but
I've determined that we don't have much proof of that. I'll have to let a PO v PO
game go that long to see what happens. As a test.

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RE: More adventures in Russia ( D21.v.4.6 ) - 5/16/2018 8:11:11 PM   
700851McCall

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

There's no way the PO would ever have captured Berlin by '45

Enquiring minds want to know how you figured this out....you have some kind of proof or
just your best estimate based on how they had been performing previously or somebody
told you that or you found a message in a bottle that said as much or you had a dream
in which the game went to the end and the PO was helpless or what.

I imagine that the PO wouldn't be able to capture Berlin by the end of the game but
I've determined that we don't have much proof of that. I'll have to let a PO v PO
game go that long to see what happens. As a test.


LOL

I'd have given you 50-1 on the PO doing it, is that good enough?

I'd played it like Monty, slow cautious advance. But unlike Monty I had failed to plan ahead regarding supply - both mine and the enemey's. Those rail lines and rail junctions are critical. The combination of both errors meant I failed to win but had preserved my forces intact enough to stop the PO making any serious progress.

The PO is not aggressive enough I think. He does not play enough of a war of attrition. If he could be made more aggressive I think the scenario would be very hard to beat even on repeated play. And he might then have a chance at Berlin.

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 97
RE: More adventures in Russia ( D21.v.4.6 ) - 5/16/2018 9:32:44 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

If he could be made more aggressive I think the scenario would be very hard to beat even on repeated play.

I think there's a way to change the strategic bias so that the PO acts like it's Berserk but I don't remember where it is in the editor now or how to change it.

EDIT: I looked at the events and voila...that's it. So you can add an event to set the Soviet Strategic Bias
and I've done that to a scenario and I'm playtesting it now.

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 5/16/2018 10:04:41 PM >


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RE: More adventures in Russia ( D21.v.4.6 ) - 5/16/2018 10:54:25 PM   
TPOO

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

If he could be made more aggressive I think the scenario would be very hard to beat even on repeated play.

I think there's a way to change the strategic bias so that the PO acts like it's Berserk but I don't remember where it is in the editor now or how to change it.

EDIT: I looked at the events and voila...that's it. So you can add an event to set the Soviet Strategic Bias
and I've done that to a scenario and I'm playtesting it now.


In this scenario the PO does have events that utilize the Strategic Bias settings and is set to get more aggressive as time goes by. It mainly determines how the PO will advance or retreat. Cautious settings the PO is more likely to retreat, Berserk settings the PO is more likely to attack and advance. You also have to use formation orders for loss tolerance to make the PO really aggressive. The way the game engine reads strategic bias, the weaker the German Player is the more the PO will utilize the aggressive setting. If the German player is very strong the PO may not act on the bias setting.

If the German player does not take historical production centers on time plus Leningrad and Moscow plus additional non-historic production centers the PO will do significant damage to the Axis by 1944 if not sooner.

Whether or not the PO can take Berlin or not is another thing because any German player at this point would stop doing stupid stand your ground orders from the Fuhrer and try to set up a better retreating defense than what the Germans did historically.

Larry's challenge in this scenario in order to become Wargamer of the Year is to make it to 1943 in better shape than the Germans historically. This version should have all kinks worked out and be a real challenge which Larry has assured me he is up for.

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Post #: 99
WotY Attempt #1 - 5/16/2018 11:13:46 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

Larry's challenge in this scenario in order to become Wargamer of the Year is to make it to 1943 in better shape than the Germans [did] historically. This version should have all kinks worked out and be a real challenge which Larry has assured me he is up for.

That sounds like a challenge. WotY is pretty up there. Wow. Practice makes perfect I guess. I'll give it the old industrial college try.

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 5/16/2018 11:56:48 PM >


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Post #: 100
WotY Attempt #1 - 5/16/2018 11:56:10 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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Here's the face of war in the Kiev area currently. I have flown in alotta bombers
and I'm assigning them direct CS attacks on the largest Soviet stacks, especially
the red ones, and I'm bombarding the Kiev defenders for a couple of times before
any attacks go in and usually the target retreats and I gain another hex. It's
slow work and I don't want to take shortcuts because that means more losses.




Attachment (1)

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RE: WotY Attempt #1 - 5/17/2018 12:05:37 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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I just now did a saved game and I thought I'd share what I have with you guys so
you can check stuff out, the dialogs and the reports etc. It's my T20 mid-turn
save game file. There's no password.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 102
RE: WotY Attempt #1 - 5/17/2018 12:13:42 AM   
MikeJ19


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TPOO and Larry,

I like this challenge. I'm rooting for you!



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Post #: 103
RE: WotY Attempt #1 - 5/17/2018 12:28:42 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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Here's what happens when you leave an HQ unit on the front lines. As long as he
leaves it there the more damage it's going to take if I have anything to do with it.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 104
RE: WotY Attempt #1 - 5/17/2018 1:57:12 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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Here's an element of the 318th Security Regiment making their way to their next
assembly point where they will screen one flank of a search and destroy mission
near Smolensk. They have been taking 5 minute breaks every hour or so and nobody
is falling behind and they have another hour and a half to go.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 5/17/2018 1:58:41 AM >


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RE: WotY Attempt #1 - 5/17/2018 2:05:26 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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Here's a report on the 318th Regiment, the unit that had the element in the above
image. It's had a hard knock and needs some rest and refit. I'll have to find
someone to occupy it's hex(es) and move it to the rear to a good supply area. I
need to set up a supply / rest camp for all the tired front line units, with a
dedicated HQ unit and everything.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 106
RE: WotY Attempt #1 - 5/17/2018 2:17:48 AM   
DanNeely

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

Larry's challenge in this scenario in order to become Wargamer of the Year is to make it to 1943 in better shape than the Germans [did] historically. This version should have all kinks worked out and be a real challenge which Larry has assured me he is up for.

That sounds like a challenge. WotY is pretty up there. Wow. Practice makes perfect I guess. I'll give it the old industrial college try.


Well that's one way to try and keep you from chronically restarting around the 1st winter every time.



_____________________________

Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man ... weighing all things in the balance of reason?
Is not [it] an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 107
RE: WotY Attempt #1 - 5/17/2018 5:29:06 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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I forced a river crossing into the Crimea. Now I need to drive to the other crossings
and clear them so the follow on forces can follow on. I'm going to use all the Rumanians
in the Crimea and I'm going to assault Sevastopol with the 11th Army's units.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 108
RE: WotY Attempt #1 - 5/17/2018 5:39:45 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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Here's the northern front lines currently. I sank the Soviet BB's and their escorts.
Now I'm trying to conter all the Soviet aircraft units near the Leningrad area and
there's a lot of them. I'm going to have to fly some more fighters up here because
this area is lousy with Soviet fighters. The supply level in the north is still okie
dokie and operations can continue for now. The German ships are going to Helsinki to
refuel and refit. I'm debating with myself whether or not to let the ships repair a
bit before I tackle the CD guns near Leningrad itself. I need the support of the ships
to take the city, I'm fairly convinced, so I'll have to deal with the CD guns. Maybe
if I bombard them from the air several turns it'll soften them up a tad bit.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 5/17/2018 5:40:37 AM >


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RE: WotY Attempt #1 - 5/17/2018 5:51:37 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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Here's what it looks like around Smolensk and I've just captured the supply point at
Smolensk so it looks like there's two more further to the east that I'll need to grab.
I'm fortunate that the railroad has been advancing almost fast enough in this area.
As soon as the rail is up to the front line I'm going to see if I can't get a line
heading south from Smolensk somewhere.




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RE: WotY Attempt #1 - 5/17/2018 5:59:15 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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This is the south currently and the supply level could be better but it's good enough
for reduced tempo operations. Pretty soon we'll be up against both rivers and it'll
be time to fight over the river crossings again. About 30% of what the Axis is doing
is fighting over river crossings. Shoot, move, and communicate...that's what they are
busy doing all over the map.

The railhead is almost at Kiev already and I'm going to start repairing south from there.
See if I can't get some supply to these folks near D-town.




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RE: WotY Attempt #1 - 5/17/2018 2:07:09 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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Here's a zoom-out of the front lines in T21 before I have moved anybody. I'll post
a bigger one on the next post below.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 5/17/2018 2:16:28 PM >


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RE: WotY Attempt #1 - 5/17/2018 2:14:50 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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Here's a zoom-in look at the front lines.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 113
RE: WotY Attempt #1 - 5/17/2018 6:48:37 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's a spot where the Soviets are slowly gaining the upper hand and unless I do
something about it there's going to be a hole in my front lines before too long.




Attachment (1)

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RE: WotY Attempt #1 - 5/17/2018 7:00:06 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's a small element of the 126th Infantry Division making their way to
the CP which has been moved into a small Soviet office just down the street.
They have converted a Soviet resturant into a chow hall and these men are
going to have a hot meal soon. It's overcast and may start raining later in
the afternoon. It's August 31, 1941 and that means it's humid and hot.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 5/17/2018 10:10:52 PM >


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RE: WotY Attempt #1 - 5/17/2018 7:35:42 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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Here's the northern front lines currently. I'm using Helsinki to refuel and
refit the ships and now that the Soviet ships are gone I have redistributed
the Ju-87 squadrons throughout the northern half of the map because they are
really effective on tanks and mechanized or motorized units and if I can get
the Stukas to support the attacks on stacks that have tanks in them maybe I
will make better progress faster. Which is not to say that there's no Soviet
tanks in the south half of the map, I'm just concentrating on the road to
Moscow right now.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 5/17/2018 7:36:19 PM >


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RE: WotY Attempt #1 - 5/17/2018 10:03:32 PM   
Nicholas Bell

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's a small element of the 126th Infantry Division making their way to
the CP which has been moved into a small Italian office just down the street.
They have converted an Italian resturant into a chow hall and these men are
going to have a hot meal soon. It's overcast and may start raining later in
the afternoon. It's August 31, 1941 and that means it's humid and hot.


Italians in the Soviet Union?

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Post #: 117
RE: WotY Attempt #1 - 5/17/2018 10:10:06 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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I posted that bad boy in the wrong thread, sorry for the confusion.
On the other hand it could just be some psyops program running.

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Post #: 118
RE: WotY Attempt #1 - 5/17/2018 11:34:58 PM   
MikeJ19


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Larry,

Your posts and humour make me smile... Well done.

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Post #: 119
RE: WotY Attempt #1 - 5/18/2018 4:20:22 AM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeJ19
Larry,

Your posts and humour make me smile... Well done.

Psyops don't really effect Elmer but my readers are vulnerable.

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