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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis)

 
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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/5/2018 12:19:00 AM   
KorutZelva

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Yes, AA units take priority over fighters. Though it's not stated anywhere.

I'm not sure what the best option is for defense.


At air parity, I'd say fighters because you get a chance at damaging both the bomber and the escort.

AA is the defence of the cash strapped and the tech laggard. If you have less planes I guess this is also a way to reduce the amount of sorties you need to make.

AA still does great vs heavy bomber or to protect certain cities.

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/5/2018 10:43:05 AM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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I'd like to see AA being able to upgrade to level 3 (in line with bomber upgrade).

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/6/2018 1:49:42 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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Aug 44... The air war continues.

With bad weather around the corner, can I make it to '45?

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/6/2018 5:52:16 PM   
Sugar

 

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You can make it to 46 if you`d like to, I could halt my invasion easily. It simply won't change the outcome.

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/6/2018 7:46:25 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

You can make it to 46 if you`d like to, I could halt my invasion easily. It simply won't change the outcome.


Ah c'mon Sugsie, toss some credit my way. I've already set the survival world record, have I not?

That's with just 6 PBEM games of experience. Just imagine what could have been with let's say 15 PBEM games of experience.

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/6/2018 8:26:11 PM   
Sugar

 

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quote:

Just imagine what could have been with let's say 15 PBEM games of experience.
Then it would be 45 already?

But to give you some credit: placing 8 AAs around London is a reasonable strategy, and I do not agree with some thinking this to be gamebreaking. If it`s that satisfying for you, I agree to achieve a decisive victory not before April 47 so we may move on to new challenges.

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/6/2018 8:53:48 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

quote:

Just imagine what could have been with let's say 15 PBEM games of experience.
Then it would be 45 already?

But to give you some credit: placing 8 AAs around London is a reasonable strategy, and I do not agree with some thinking this to be gamebreaking. If it`s that satisfying for you, I agree to achieve a decisive victory not before April 47 so we may move on to new challenges.


I'm thinking with 15 games of experience you'd have remained MIA from the forum more than one month.

As for this game, let's act it out to the bitter end.

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/7/2018 7:36:02 AM   
Sugar

 

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[image][URL=http://www.bild.me][/URL][/image]

After a successfull summer campaign, the western Allied Air Forces are down to 6 units (from 30), a 3-star HQ (Bradley) is destroyed. Russian ground forces are down to 18; with Kuybishev in german hands Stalin has to retreat into the Ural.

[image][URL=http://www.bild.me][/URL][/image]

The situation in Britain. Next target will be the HQs, without their support the AAs are no real threat.

< Message edited by Sugar -- 6/7/2018 7:37:47 AM >

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/7/2018 10:52:06 AM   
KorutZelva

 

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Hey, how come you know the identity of the HQ leader? The only time I can see it is if I have land unit next to it, it stays anonymous if I reveal it by plane.

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/7/2018 11:17:40 AM   
Sugar

 

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It's in the unit's records.

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/7/2018 12:01:19 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

It's in the unit's records.


Ah? Neat!

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/7/2018 1:35:35 PM   
Elessar2


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Staggering losses. 24 lost Allied plane units out of 30?! Only 18 Russian units left?

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/7/2018 2:20:57 PM   
Taxman66


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Does seem kinda dumb that even the full strength Wallies air force can't stand up to the German Luftwaffe.

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/7/2018 2:26:40 PM   
Sugar

 

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Russian NM is still at 50%, and the Red Air Force at 9 units. With their income at ca. 600 they`re no longer a threat thou, and farer than ever from reaching 1 of the key cities.

The Axis can concentrate most of their efforts to Britain, and with an income of more than 2000 casualties don`t matter anymore. Even the Regia Aeronautica adds 4 fighters and bombers at the highest lvl.

During the period of bad weather the Allies will recover some of their strength undoubtly, but that won't change much. Just matter of time.

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/7/2018 4:36:59 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

Just matter of time.


I believe we had reached that point when you got that second Tank breakthrough.

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/7/2018 5:29:54 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Does seem kinda dumb that even the full strength Wallies air force can't stand up to the German Luftwaffe.


I had the numbers and the HQ were roughly par but that's not the whole story. The Americans were still one tech behind for advance fighters at D-Day and IIRC at long range 3. The UK were par but only had long range 1. Also the air war started being fought at lower supply due to the Paris blunder. There's also some positioning mistake that were costly (although they were partly incurred because of the long range lag as I had to put asset in danger to hope to strike his air).

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/8/2018 1:20:30 AM   
KorutZelva

 

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Tried a little paradropping to strike at his planes (well they had nothing better to do, HA!) planning to use my carrier for escorts. I thought they had 1 strike and two escort missions when in figther mode (like a typical figther), turns out they have it the other way around, 2 strikes and 1 escort. Oops!


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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/8/2018 11:26:31 AM   
Sugar

 

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[image][URL=http://www.bild.me][/URL][/image]

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/8/2018 4:01:06 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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Some how I thought this was closer

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/8/2018 4:16:46 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

Some how I thought this was closer


It was until it wasn't. Losses were low before Summer '43 and the Allies still had the income and unit count edge at the time (usually the Axis in a winning effort still has the unit count edge early '43). That second tank tech breakthrough broke the soviet camel's back and the goose was cooked. You can't lose the Caucasus and your army because without the former you can't rebuild the latter.

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/8/2018 4:34:01 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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It was fun to observe. Good show. Have to give the guy credit he's good at the game.

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/8/2018 5:46:46 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

It was fun to observe. Good show. Have to give the guy credit he's good at the game.


Oh for sure! 99% of SC players that would have been cast in the same situation post-France would have lost.

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/8/2018 8:04:41 PM   
Elessar2


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I guess the AI teaches you bad habits. In both of my games vs. the Allies so far USSR casualties were MUCH higher; I'm talking corps well over 100, armies c. 60, but here I guess the Russian player built more tanks. In my current game, it's just Dec '42 but I'm already at 171 Russian losses overall, and '43 will drive that well over 200. In August '42 I surrounded and killed a dozen units-only to be faced with 4 brand new tanks once the smoke cleared and my Moscow salient under threat.

The default scenarios (Crispy's too) simply drown you in enemy AI units if you've cranked the difficulty up. After rampaging thru the Middle East during the entire year of '42, I toggle cheats on to check on the British-only to discover that they've somehow completely rebuilt their entire army, HQ's and air too. [I killed 6 HQ's and 8 air units] I.e. wish Hubert would work on making the AI more robust (i.e. no huge gaps in AI lines that you could drive a hundred Tiger brigades through), vs. just sending endless human waves at you which become mind numbing after awhile (= Fake Difficulty]. Otherwise it's just a mindless slog a la a zombie shooter game.

< Message edited by Elessar2 -- 6/8/2018 8:06:37 PM >

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/8/2018 8:24:28 PM   
Harun

 

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I've actually tried a few games without difficulty level to try to get a grasp on what a human player would really have on offer in pbem. I'm sure I have other horrible habits, too.

How long does pbem take? Say I have only one hour every 2-3 days. Will that work?

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/8/2018 8:39:29 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harun

I've actually tried a few games without difficulty level to try to get a grasp on what a human player would really have on offer in pbem. I'm sure I have other horrible habits, too.

How long does pbem take? Say I have only one hour every 2-3 days. Will that work?




If you consistently put in 1-2 turns a day you are good. 2-3 hrs plenty of time. I'd say turns are 5-10 minutes early on then 20-30 minutes once game gets to '42-'46. You might want to try to find a newer player your first few tries or you can just get the crap kicked out of you like I did.




< Message edited by PvtBenjamin -- 6/8/2018 8:41:13 PM >


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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/9/2018 5:52:41 AM   
HvS


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Looking forward to the mirror match.

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/9/2018 5:13:55 PM   
Sugar

 

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Turn 182 Dec. 44 Axis' DV.

Many thx for an interesting match and an observant audience.

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/9/2018 5:17:35 PM   
room

 

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Great, thx you both. I want a debrief now

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/9/2018 6:17:41 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar

Turn 182 Dec. 44 Axis' DV.

Many thx for an interesting match and an observant audience.



31 dec too! Oh so close! :D

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RE: Tourney game AAR: KZ (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) - 6/11/2018 3:14:41 PM   
KorutZelva

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: room

Great, thx you both. I want a debrief now


Where to even begin? The fact that this match took place within the context of the tourney is a bit of a surprise in itself. When Lv34Mika and I were setting up the tourney, Sugar was still on the outside looking in, nagging every single aspect of it with the fury of 100 chinese wifes. He didn't seem interested at all by it. He only ended up joining, albeit passive-aggressively, when he was challenged to a match by BPINisBACK. As a participant I think he was content just beating back would-be challengers and kept his involvement to a minimum. That changed when a certain rookie claimed a higher spot on the pyramid, he had to involve himself in the tourney and issue a challenge himself to catch up. The tourney was made to gather some win-loss data to help balance and offer a way for players to play vs people of similar level of skill. It certainly wasn't build as a vehicle to show-off my skills. When the idea to set-up some form our tourney thing was bubbling up in the War Room forum, I was 2-1 at the time. Frankly I would have pegged myself as a middle of the road guy so going 3-0 right off the bat was also a bit of an unlikely event in itself from my perspective.

One of the fun aspect of the match is the fact that was a bit of a grudge match too. I've been Sugar mortal enemy since I've sort of out-argued him in the uber-diplo thread. He has the tendency of going 'I won 50 match so shut-up' trying to stifle debate, which is a bit bad form. For that reason, I admit I rather enjoy riling him up until his english starts breaking.

Going into the match I knew winning was a long shot. Enough has been said of the experience disparity. Doing the brunt of the AARing also a bit of a hinderance since you're exposing to the opponent what you know (and the limit of what you know) of his unit placement. That last one can potentially be very lethal. However, I didn't mind doing it as a public service so that the next challenger as more info to go with.

I did have some things working in my favour however. Sugar's cookie cutter is something of a known entity. It helps to prepare when you know what to expect. I had played vs HarryBanana who followed a similar script so I had some experience. Cripsy mini-AAR vs Sugar was also useful to figure out how he would react to certain situation. The last few patches helped the Allies a lot, notably the extra planes the UK get allows them to be more aggressive with their buys since they don't start in deadly danger of being vastly out-numbered by the Luftwaffe. Lastly, based on some of his statements in the uber diplo thread I deduced the diplo aspect was the weakest part of Sugar's game.

SC III is a game that has rather remarkable ripple effects. Small decisions taken in 1939-1940 can have enormous repercussion down the line even if they are not readily apparent after the fact. Diplo can have that big impact, a couple of diplo hit with the US or USSR can change the landscape. It worked out in this game, with the allies scoring 3 diplo hits (even if one of them was rolled back later) so the Russian had lots of mpp to prepare in tech and units which puts Germany in a bit of a deadly danger. If the USSR catch up in tech, it's almost impossible to make lasting gains. But Sugar had sown the seeds of my own future demise with his early investment in tech (even if that means a bit more growing pains in France) but also notably of Spy and Intel tech with Italy. Making the S&I race 2 (Germany, Italy) vs 1 (UK). It requires a bit a luck to establish the S&I lead, but those are some good odds which you can snowball into more tech gains. With the increased USSR income and S&I parity one could expect to be very close to Germany in tech by '43 due to the catch-up bonus. It was not so in this game as a couple of fortunate breakthrough saw Germany actually increase its tech lead. Not bad for a little 150 mpp tech! The S&I battle is really the Allies to win though. They have one more major to fish for breakthrough compared to the Axis so they can make it 3 to 2 rather than 2 to 1. If the Axis doesn't invest for S&I for Italy it can be even worst. With the extra AT tech chit for the USSR which you can cash in, all three allied power can have their S&I investment up on turn 1 at minimal disruption of the 'big 3' research (inf, tank, fighter).

In terms of tech, I regretted not investing in Tank tech for the American until very late. Past a certain threshold (I'd say about tank tech 4), infantry armies can't do much offensively anymore and they take a backseat to the tank and bombers. With the Americans I had planned to max my air and use infantry and rely on UK tanks, that was a mistake. Basically you need to have numerical advantage in tanks as much as you need numerical advantage in air.

Sugar said before that this game is really one of attacks and counter attacks. It is very true. There are very few areas where a committed defense can be (somewhat viable). If your opponent attacks, you better give way. In NA and Southern Russia my two biggest disaster on the field happened when I stuck around too long when I should have withdrawn my units.

I think we saw an example on how rail allows you to skimp on garrisons. While Sugar's France was guarded by a single unit in Paris, I had corps in NA protecting my rear that would have been massively more useful bolstering the frontline (and protecting my air!).

Despite all this, the Axis was under very real threat. With the the allies having the unit edge (and taking account Germany a fair number of garrison units boosting their number) they couldn't afford going 1:1 or even 2:1 vs the Russians. Sugar had little income to work with and, credits to him, managed to mount his Barbarossa on a shoestring budget.

In closing, I'd like to thank my opponent for a very fun and exciting game. I learned a lot and I feel a certain pride at having managed to take the 'reigning champion' to his limits.

Long live the SC Pyramid Tourney!

< Message edited by KorutZelva -- 6/11/2018 6:21:01 PM >

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