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"Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff production and tactical q re. evacuations

 
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"Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff productio... - 4/18/2018 8:19:51 AM   
Alpha77

 

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So back in the game it seems, have noted some oddities which came to light lets say in the beginning of the "mid war" phase in my case Jan 43..this is scen2

a) IJ radar update/production:

I always thought the ground radar devices have a fixed rate of production and one must choose wisely were to update the rare radar devices. However this seems not to be the case as more radars are produced then the fixed rate. So basically it is possible to update all radars if you have enough supplies and a legit source (eg. a bigger base with enough supplies and/or a HQ). The problem with a missing update link for one of the IJA radars was already fixed in one of the patches, so this works now. But does not the IJ now get to many radars, while in reality they were scarce?

b) old stuff production:

I also thought that that "greyed" out devices are outdated and can not be produced anymore. That is also wrong, they can be produced, eg. the Krupp 75mm mountain gun. This is nitpicking probably but in reality an old mountain gun perhaps from WW1 could not be produced anymore. Only old stock could be used, if this runs out then the device will vanish over time. However they could be substituted by the normal more modern mountain gun from regular production

c) IJ ship radar upgrade, strange:

Noted that some ship classes without much AA capacity get as 1st radar update an air radar. Eg. older DDs which now serve more as escorts, patrols or ASW ships in backwaters. Makes not much sense, these should get an SS (surface - surface) radar not an SA (surface - air) ? Or are these more supposed to be "radar pickets" against air raids like the USN practise?

d) Tactical question re. evacuations

Is there a good guide or tipps how to conduct evacuations from positions which are or can be isolated and the enemy has air superiority and possibly at sea in this area too? One can use flying boats to evacuate troops and light devices. With ships it is quite difficult I guess. There is a pick up option for amphib and fast transports I believe. Fast transport how will they function, run in at night, load as fast as possible and than run away still at night ?

e) This is linked to above, if the port is "0" but nav support is present at the base, the nav support value will not be shown in the base screen. But will the support still help in loading / unloading? Or is it useless to base nav support at port "0" ?
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RE: "Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff produ... - 4/18/2018 1:40:23 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

So back in the game it seems, have noted some oddities which came to light lets say in the beginning of the "mid war" phase in my case Jan 43..this is scen2

a) IJ radar update/production:

I always thought the ground radar devices have a fixed rate of production and one must choose wisely were to update the rare radar devices. However this seems not to be the case as more radars are produced then the fixed rate. So basically it is possible to update all radars if you have enough supplies and a legit source (eg. a bigger base with enough supplies and/or a HQ). The problem with a missing update link for one of the IJA radars was already fixed in one of the patches, so this works now. But does not the IJ now get to many radars, while in reality they were scarce?

I don't know if that scenario provides extra radars for the Japanese, but I suspect you are looking at the older radars returned to the pools when the new ones are rolled out. If the pool's "Used" column shows a - (minus) sign in front of the number, that is the old devices returned to the pool.

b) old stuff production:

I also thought that that "greyed" out devices are outdated and can not be produced anymore. That is also wrong, they can be produced, eg. the Krupp 75mm mountain gun. This is nitpicking probably but in reality an old mountain gun perhaps from WW1 could not be produced anymore. Only old stock could be used, if this runs out then the device will vanish over time. However they could be substituted by the normal more modern mountain gun from regular production

Again, this sounds like old devices returned to the pools rather than new production. The old obsolete devices will just sit there unless some unit is still drawing them.

c) IJ ship radar upgrade, strange:

Noted that some ship classes without much AA capacity get as 1st radar update an air radar. Eg. older DDs which now serve more as escorts, patrols or ASW ships in backwaters. Makes not much sense, these should get an SS (surface - surface) radar not an SA (surface - air) ? Or are these more supposed to be "radar pickets" against air raids like the USN practise?

This could be just the historical pattern if Japan developed air search radars before surface search radars, and had more factories producing the former. If you have lots of them and almost none of the surface search, why not give them to the ships that are getting other upgrade work done? I don't think the IJN had real radar pickets for their fleet, but they had a lot of small escorts with merchant convoys that would want warning of aircraft.

d) Tactical question re. evacuations

Is there a good guide or tipps how to conduct evacuations from positions which are or can be isolated and the enemy has air superiority and possibly at sea in this area too? One can use flying boats to evacuate troops and light devices. With ships it is quite difficult I guess. There is a pick up option for amphib and fast transports I believe. Fast transport how will they function, run in at night, load as fast as possible and than run away still at night ?

You can also use a Fast Transport (FT) TF to run in and out and retrieve the troops from a coastal hex whether or not there is a base there. Set the TF as FT, set the destination, and when the button or text "Pick Up Troops" appears, click on that. I haven't used this enough to be sure, but I think the FT TF may behave like a Bombardment TF - i.e. it first moves close enough, then next turn dashes at full speed to pick up the troops and dashes out to get maximum distance from enemy threats. Be sure to set the TF to Direct/Absolute routing.

You can also use a Sub Transport TF to pick up cadres of units so you can rebuild them rather than buying them back.


e) This is linked to above, if the port is "0" but nav support is present at the base, the nav support value will not be shown in the base screen. But will the support still help in loading / unloading? Or is it useless to base nav support at port "0" ?

There has been some discussion on this recently and I am unclear as to the status of the latest change, but I think it ended up that the NS is helping but can't be displayed on the base screen because the Port does not exist. Can anyone verify/correct this?



< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 4/18/2018 1:43:04 PM >


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RE: "Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff produ... - 4/18/2018 3:33:27 PM   
Alpha77

 

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Thanks BBfanboy, super answers. Except the point a) I may have been unclear. The radar devices are already in the units so were produced (more than the fixed rate), in this case I believe the Tai Chi 7 radar which comes in Jan 43...I will provide a screen shot when I get a new turn... and perhaps also b) cause the Thai "super daring brothers in arms" units were quite a bit in combat and should have lost a good number of these old mountain guns, but they are back at TOE now... so these old guns were produced (imho) or it is just moddelled that in some storage a good number of these guns still collect dust

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RE: "Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff produ... - 4/18/2018 4:28:45 PM   
Yaab


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

e) This is linked to above, if the port is "0" but nav support is present at the base, the nav support value will not be shown in the base screen. But will the support still help in loading / unloading? Or is it useless to base nav support at port "0" ?

There has been some discussion on this recently and I am unclear as to the status of the latest change, but I think it ended up that the NS is helping but can't be displayed on the base screen because the Port does not exist. Can anyone verify/correct this?



Load any grand campaign scenario starting on Dec 7, 1941 as Allies.

Go to Hawaii.

Check both Niihau and Lanai ports which start at level 0. See if they get any Naval Support from Pac Command HQ (range 9) and 14th Naval District (range 6)which are parked in Pearl Harbor.

I just checked DaBigBabes-C scen 28, turn 25 (1 January, 1942) and both bases show 0 Naval Support. Both bases show 0 rearm level.

On the other hand, Tracker shows that Naval Support is present in both bases. I guess the Naval Support effects kick in only at port level 1. I guess you would have to compare the bases at game's start and after you have developed both ports to level 1.

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RE: "Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff produ... - 4/18/2018 5:43:19 PM   
Alpha77

 

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The thing is I "air mailed" nav support to Tassafaronga (port0), with the (now mistaken?) idea to help unnload supply asap from amph or FT fleets. And now also to evacuate personnel as it seems base is more or less overtaken by Allies. So I can also evacuate the navsup saving supplies at the base, correct?

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 4/18/2018 5:44:13 PM >

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RE: "Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff produ... - 4/18/2018 6:47:21 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Thanks BBfanboy, super answers. Except the point a) I may have been unclear. The radar devices are already in the units so were produced (more than the fixed rate), in this case I believe the Tai Chi 7 radar which comes in Jan 43...I will provide a screen shot when I get a new turn... and perhaps also b) cause the Thai "super daring brothers in arms" units were quite a bit in combat and should have lost a good number of these old mountain guns, but they are back at TOE now... so these old guns were produced (imho) or it is just moddelled that in some storage a good number of these guns still collect dust

The Japanese have armament factories that can produce a variety of armaments. If the mountain guns have been getting used up in combat, the AI would likely use the Armament factory points to produce more of them. Just my guess, based on the way the AI increases supply to meet demand at given locations.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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RE: "Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff produ... - 4/18/2018 6:51:14 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

e) This is linked to above, if the port is "0" but nav support is present at the base, the nav support value will not be shown in the base screen. But will the support still help in loading / unloading? Or is it useless to base nav support at port "0" ?

There has been some discussion on this recently and I am unclear as to the status of the latest change, but I think it ended up that the NS is helping but can't be displayed on the base screen because the Port does not exist. Can anyone verify/correct this?



Load any grand campaign scenario starting on Dec 7, 1941 as Allies.

Go to Hawaii.

Check both Niihau and Lanai ports which start at level 0. See if they get any Naval Support from Pac Command HQ (range 9) and 14th Naval District (range 6)which are parked in Pearl Harbor.

I just checked DaBigBabes-C scen 28, turn 25 (1 January, 1942) and both bases show 0 Naval Support. Both bases show 0 rearm level.

On the other hand, Tracker shows that Naval Support is present in both bases. I guess the Naval Support effects kick in only at port level 1. I guess you would have to compare the bases at game's start and after you have developed both ports to level 1.

I was not supposing an HQ nearby effect, I thought the OP actually had a unit with NS squads at the base. Stevedores may not be able to work effectively at a level 0 port because that would have no equipment for them to use. Increasing port size means better docks, more lighters (for offloading undocked ships), more MHE (Materiel Handling Equipment) like cranes and forklifts and vehicles to move the supply/equipment away from the docks.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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RE: "Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff produ... - 4/19/2018 10:51:45 AM   
Yaab


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

The thing is I "air mailed" nav support to Tassafaronga (port0), with the (now mistaken?) idea to help unnload supply asap from amph or FT fleets. And now also to evacuate personnel as it seems base is more or less overtaken by Allies. So I can also evacuate the navsup saving supplies at the base, correct?


Do the Naval Support squads show up on the base screen?

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RE: "Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff produ... - 4/19/2018 12:59:48 PM   
Alpha77

 

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No, this is why I ask. The squads are part of a nav HQ and part of a nav eng battalion.

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RE: "Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff produ... - 4/19/2018 1:28:06 PM   
Lowpe


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Fast Transport is an art. A black art.

Using load troops and then selecting a base adds another level of complexity. Enable do not unload on such task forces and make sure the home base is picked prior to loading the troops.

Direct/absolute helps, as does having plenty of fuel.

Japanese production reports can be hard to understand sometimes: devices get returned to pools, obsolete equipment seems to get produced if there is a demand for it (or perhaps it is being returned from an upgrading unit), some devices have a set production rate while others are made on demand but demand comes from being in a base with supply and not off base.

True production can be difficult to determine with many devices.





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RE: "Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff produ... - 4/19/2018 3:26:23 PM   
Yaab


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

No, this is why I ask. The squads are part of a nav HQ and part of a nav eng battalion.


Try to park a ship with smallest guns possible like 7.7mm AAMGs, and see if on the ship's screen its ammo stock is displayed in green text, meaning the AAMGs can be reloaded at port 0 using the Naval Support present there.

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RE: "Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff produ... - 4/19/2018 4:02:05 PM   
Alfred

 

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Naval Support can be displayed as this screenshot shows.






Alfred

Attachment (1)

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RE: "Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff produ... - 4/19/2018 5:28:37 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Fast Transport is an art. A black art.

Using load troops and then selecting a base adds another level of complexity. Enable do not unload on such task forces and make sure the home base is picked prior to loading the troops.

Direct/absolute helps, as does having plenty of fuel.

Japanese production reports can be hard to understand sometimes: devices get returned to pools, obsolete equipment seems to get produced if there is a demand for it (or perhaps it is being returned from an upgrading unit), some devices have a set production rate while others are made on demand but demand comes from being in a base with supply and not off base.

True production can be difficult to determine with many devices.







The Japanese have a number of ships that are fast transport capable. The only limitation with some is their speed. In addition some players do not realized that the Allies have a few ships other than APDs that can operate in FT convoys. There are a few armed merchant cruisers that can carry large loads as Fast Transport and some AKVs can carry devices as FT. I think later on in the war some ships like LSDs can also be used as fast transports. But by late war FTs are not as needed by the Allies.

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RE: "Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff produ... - 4/19/2018 6:03:01 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab
On the other hand, Tracker shows that Naval Support is present in both bases. I guess the Naval Support effects kick in only at port level 1. I guess you would have to compare the bases at game's start and after you have developed both ports to level 1.


Well I also intalled tracker once again and loaded the last turn today. Good idea to check what it says for Tassa, it displays there nav sup (41) as well these stats for loading etc:
So does this mean I can unload (and load too?) 820 supplies / troops there in 1 turn? And this would in 1 night the half ? So 410 supplies could be unloaded in 1 night?






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 4/19/2018 6:06:40 PM >

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RE: "Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff produ... - 4/19/2018 6:11:32 PM   
Yaab


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No. They cannot unload more than the port limit allows. Thus, you will be limited to unloading 100 supplies per day.

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RE: "Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff produ... - 4/19/2018 6:32:08 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

No. They cannot unload more than the port limit allows. Thus, you will be limited to unloading 100 supplies per day.


If a cargo mission is used I suppose, but amphib or fast t mission unloads faster... or not...
But the nav support helps with this work, otherwise it would not show higher rates in the "ship" column.


< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 4/19/2018 6:43:05 PM >

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RE: "Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff produ... - 4/25/2018 7:31:04 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

I always thought the ground radar devices have a fixed rate of production and one must choose wisely were to update the rare radar devices. However this seems not to be the case as more radars are produced then the fixed rate. So basically it is possible to update all radars if you have enough supplies and a legit source (eg. a bigger base with enough supplies and/or a HQ).


I've noticed this as well. For example, all JNAF battaliion sized units upgrading on the first day the radar is introduced.

quote:

e) This is linked to above, if the port is "0" but nav support is present at the base, the nav support value will not be shown in the base screen. But will the support still help in loading / unloading? Or is it useless to base nav support at port "0" ?


As of beta 1126b, port sites with an SPS(0) will no longer display NS devices and they're not working as well as not showing. To be clear this is as it is no matter what port level you increase the base to. Its easy to check as Japan, just view Miri once you get NS to the location. This is at least the case in stock scen1 as Japan.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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RE: "Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff produ... - 4/26/2018 3:51:06 PM   
Alpha77

 

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@ rustysi: Interesting, so just to clarify, nav support at port0 is indeed useless? I do not really understand the Miri reference to be honest, Miri has a bigger port then "0"

And re. the radar upgrades yes, you see the same like me. Only question is this WAD or some kind of quirk (bug?). Well IJ players certainly wont complain to get more radars, but we also should point out oddities which work in our favour. Except that even the end of 42 / Jan 43 radar is still pretty bad compaired to the Allied ones.

I tested the fast transport mission meanwhile and it seems to work however I set the small TF to full speed and it almost ran out of fuel, it had 1 hex endurance left arriving back in the source port. It delivered small amount of supplies in the night to a port0. Behaves like a bombardement mission I would say.

I also tried barge missions btw. Makes no sense they can only load a bit of supply are more for troops. However I set them to "auto disband" - but they would not disband in 2 cases now and then be sunk in the day phase. Does port 0 also can use the auto disband option? As it works normally in case of other deliveries to ports bigger than 0, if the unload time is short I mean. And it should be as barges can only load 12 supplies or so...bit OT with the barges. I did not use / try these missions much before as I was playing vs. the AI all the time mostly the AI does not put up a working blockade like human players would so.

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 4/26/2018 4:20:57 PM >

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RE: "Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff produ... - 4/27/2018 7:07:58 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

@ rustysi: Interesting, so just to clarify, nav support at port0 is indeed useless?


To clarify further NS devices at an SPS(0) base with a port is useless. This applies whether you build the base up or not.

quote:

I do not really understand the Miri reference to be honest, Miri has a bigger port then "0"


The reference is that from the Japanese side this is one of the first 'important' bases you will take. Its got lots of oil. Problem for Japan is that it'll be ~50% damaged. Now I don't bother with the refinery damage, but want the oil repaired ASAP. I generally use a TF which includes three vessels with ~10k cargo capacity. At a base (Brunie[sp?]) next door with a level 3 port and a naval HQ (~240 NS devices) it'll unload in a day. If I try this at Miri, also a level 3 port, it'll take several days for the same TF to unload even with the same NS level. Difference is Miri is a level 0 SPS, and Brunis is level 1 IIRC. Hence NS devices are non-functional at port bases of SPS(0). If you view the SPS(0) port you will notice no NS level shown whether they are there or not.

Keep in mind that this only refers to beta patch 1126b. As I've said before the SPS(0) thing is not that big a deal and both sides must deal with the same restriction. This patch fixes a very important item for the Allies which I believe supersedes the restriction. It fixes a 'bug' in the Allied ability to re-supply at sea in the late game. Past iterations of the game would not resup BB's main guns from AE. This problem was also present at ports with AE/AKE's early on, but was fixed. Somehow nobody notice the same effect at sea 'til later. Most likely because this function is not available until late game, and how many games get that far. It was one of MichaelM's last fixes before he was no longer able to support AE.



_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Alpha77)
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RE: "Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff produ... - 4/28/2018 9:59:24 AM   
Alpha77

 

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Good info there, yes the small ports / capacity of these oil places are a problem for sure. Luckily in case of oil loading one gets bonus from the oil fields present at Miri and a small one at Brunei too. Fuel loading would work at Brunei better with nav support there and you generate a need at Brunei so fuel "travels" from Miri to Brunei and load the fuel there. But main problem is these fleets need micromanaging, so that tankers fit to docks.

Of course Balikpapan and Palembang are also not ideal for loading the big ships.

Interesting with Allied ammo supply issue need to check if I have the latest version.

(in reply to rustysi)
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RE: "Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff produ... - 4/28/2018 6:57:46 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

Fuel loading would work at Brunei better with nav support


NS devices only aid in the load/unload of supply and troops. Has no effect on anything else. As for me nearly all fuel/oil loads right out of Miri. With the bonous for the refinery/oil fields it works nicely. Yes there's micromanagement involved, but where isn't there in this game.

quote:

Of course Balikpapan and Palembang are also not ideal for loading the big ships.


Palembang is QED if you simply transfer to Singers and use large TK's at that location. Balikpapan is probably the most difficult due to the large quantities and relatively small port, but it too can be managed.

quote:

Interesting with Allied ammo supply issue need to check if I have the latest version.


Need latest 'Beta' (1126b) for it to work, latest 'Official' patch will not help.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 4/28/2018 6:58:26 PM >


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Alpha77)
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RE: "Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff produ... - 5/8/2018 9:07:02 AM   
Alpha77

 

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Yes you are correct, I had put combined fleet HQ at Miri and it does show "0" support But at Brunei it shows...

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RE: "Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff produ... - 5/8/2018 2:33:06 PM   
Yaab


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Naval Support will speed up loading fuel as cargo i.e. when you load fuel in xAKs as supplies.

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RE: "Mid war" IJ radar update/old stuff produ... - 5/12/2018 5:26:31 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

when you load fuel in xAKs as supplies.


I don't load fuel on anything w/o the space for it, but that's just me. Even then as said here that space was intended for other liquids, but the code will load fuel/oil no matter what you do when you load supply/resources.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Yaab)
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