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Plane & Weapon database questions - 3/4/2018 6:23:59 PM   
durnedwolf


Posts: 872
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From: USA
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Hi everyone,

So I was looking up some of the devices under the Plane & Weapons Database.

An Observer has a range of 10k, Acc equals 0, it has an Effect of 10 and the Type is Air Search. And it will upgrade to a Sound Detector (A).

There are two Sound Detector (A) devices listed... My guess is that one is for the Americans and the other is for the rest of the allied troops? Anyway - let's go with the 2nd of the two type (A) detectors - it has a range of 25k an Acc of 10, and Effect of 10, and it too a Type of device for Air Search.

So what does Acc mean? Accuracy? So an Observer is never Accurate and a Type (A) sound detector is accurate ten percent of the time?

Range - I assume is altitude?

And what is Effect? Both the Observer and the Type (A) sound detector have an Effect rating of 10 (which I assume is 10 percent).

Can someone help me out with describing Acc, Effect, and how they are used in the game? I tried various searches within the pdf manual but I came up short.




_____________________________


DW

I try to live by two words - tenacity and gratitude. Tenacity gets me where I want to go and gratitude ensures I'm not angry along the way. - Henry Winkler.

The great aim of education is not knowledge but action. - Herbert Spencer
Post #: 1
RE: Plane & Weapon database questions - 3/4/2018 10:56:25 PM   
rms1pa

 

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Joined: 7/4/2011
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ummm good luck with that,

since i am not that bright i keep it simple.

observer = better than nothing

sound detector = better than observer

radar = better than sound detector (but will still drop the ball from time to time)

have fun. but don't get dissapeared in the nuts and bolts.

rms/pa

_____________________________

there is a technical term for those who confuse the opinions of an author's characters for the opinions of the author.
the term is IDIOT.

(in reply to durnedwolf)
Post #: 2
RE: Plane & Weapon database questions - 3/4/2018 11:40:09 PM   
dcpollay


Posts: 513
Joined: 11/22/2012
From: Upstate New York USA
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I'm going to almost second what rms1pa said....

An Observer is someone who will hear incoming aircraft from miles and miles away. However, even if he hears them, it is still very difficult to tell what directions the sound is coming from - thus, the low Accuracy.

Once you upgrade to the Sound detector, things get a little better. The observer wears a headset around the size of a tuba that amplifies the sound. Some people have posted pics of them from time to time for amusement. They look like a giant set of mouse ears. Their benefit is that they give the user some kind of directional focus, although not specific like a radar contact, and are more sensitive than bare ears for whatever direction the user is facing - thus better range.

I'm not sure what the Effect rating is, but I would not assume it is a percentage. It is more likely just a factor in the computer calculations to determine if the user detects an incoming raid.

Either way, as a player there isn't really anything you need to do with the numbers. Just...Mouse ears are better than man ears, and radar is better still.

_____________________________

"It's all according to how your boogaloo situation stands, you understand."

Formerly known as Colonel Mustard, before I got Slitherine Syndrome.

(in reply to rms1pa)
Post #: 3
RE: Plane & Weapon database questions - 3/4/2018 11:58:52 PM   
durnedwolf


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Joined: 5/23/2005
From: USA
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I'm just wondering what happens if I stack units with Sound Device (J) in a base or, if I have a few units in nearby hexes, does it increase the time the CAP has to respond? In A2A combat, is this something like Detection Level, where the higher I can get some kind of number, the better my CAP or AA will function?

Maybe this is all fluff in the game and the Air Search devices really don't do squat until actual radar is available. I was just hoping that if two or three Observer/Detector squads pick up incoming enemy strikes, the results stack and improve my combat results.



_____________________________


DW

I try to live by two words - tenacity and gratitude. Tenacity gets me where I want to go and gratitude ensures I'm not angry along the way. - Henry Winkler.

The great aim of education is not knowledge but action. - Herbert Spencer

(in reply to dcpollay)
Post #: 4
RE: Plane & Weapon database questions - 3/5/2018 5:37:28 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4298
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
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Everyone helps with air raid detection.

Here is an air attack on a Chinese unit who has no Observer/Detector/Radar present.

-------------------------------------------

Night Air attack on Pakhoi , at 72,58

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 37 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-51 Sonia x 3

No Japanese losses

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing from 8000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 50 kg GP Bomb

----------------------------------------------------------




< Message edited by Yaab -- 3/5/2018 6:34:04 AM >

(in reply to durnedwolf)
Post #: 5
RE: Plane & Weapon database questions - 3/5/2018 2:34:02 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4688
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

Hi everyone,

So I was looking up some of the devices under the Plane & Weapons Database.

An Observer has a range of 10k, Acc equals 0, it has an Effect of 10 and the Type is Air Search. And it will upgrade to a Sound Detector (A).

There are two Sound Detector (A) devices listed... My guess is that one is for the Americans and the other is for the rest of the allied troops? Anyway - let's go with the 2nd of the two type (A) detectors - it has a range of 25k an Acc of 10, and Effect of 10, and it too a Type of device for Air Search.

So what does Acc mean? Accuracy? So an Observer is never Accurate and a Type (A) sound detector is accurate ten percent of the time?

Range - I assume is altitude?

And what is Effect? Both the Observer and the Type (A) sound detector have an Effect rating of 10 (which I assume is 10 percent).

Can someone help me out with describing Acc, Effect, and how they are used in the game? I tried various searches within the pdf manual but I came up short.





Probably one upgrades to radar and the other don't.

Unfortunatly the dev's didn't explained much about several capabilities.

(in reply to durnedwolf)
Post #: 6
RE: Plane & Weapon database questions - 3/5/2018 10:56:07 PM   
dcpollay


Posts: 513
Joined: 11/22/2012
From: Upstate New York USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

I'm just wondering what happens if I stack units with Sound Device (J) in a base or, if I have a few units in nearby hexes, does it increase the time the CAP has to respond? In A2A combat, is this something like Detection Level, where the higher I can get some kind of number, the better my CAP or AA will function?

Maybe this is all fluff in the game and the Air Search devices really don't do squat until actual radar is available. I was just hoping that if two or three Observer/Detector squads pick up incoming enemy strikes, the results stack and improve my combat results.



I don't know how the math works in the game engine, but I do not believe they are just "fluff." The fact that the device has performance characteristics programmed by the developers tells me that they "do" something.

As for range, my logical guess would be that if you have more Observers in a hex, you would at least have a better chance of detecting a raid. On an abstracted basis, the Observers could be spread out anywhere in the hex, with some stationed further out along the enemy's line of attack. They would pick up the raid before an Observer stationed at the base itself, thus increasing the detection distance. Again, just a guess. Someone else may feel free to chime in.

_____________________________

"It's all according to how your boogaloo situation stands, you understand."

Formerly known as Colonel Mustard, before I got Slitherine Syndrome.

(in reply to durnedwolf)
Post #: 7
RE: Plane & Weapon database questions - 3/6/2018 12:56:39 AM   
cardas

 

Posts: 184
Joined: 4/8/2016
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From the FAQ thread ( http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2260137 ):
quote:

7.4.1.1 AIR UNITS –RADAR:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2251019

While radar can have a range in excess of the 40NM hex, it does not extend outside the hex.

Instead, if the radar has a range of more than 40NM, it gets a number of extra chances to detect the raid equal to the number of hexes it could have reached. (range of 120NM would get 3 chances to detect raid, while a 40NM radar only the one).

Radar detects Airplanes. The longer the range the sooner it does so. The higher the effect the more accurate the data and the better your CAP will perform. There really isn't much more to it.



quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf
Can someone help me out with describing Acc, Effect, and how they are used in the game? I tried various searches within the pdf manual but I came up short.

For some device types in some cases this may correspond to a real world value. On the balance though it's helpful to simply disregard the names of these values, instead just consider them as dimensionless value A, value B an do so on. Now how they actually feed into various combat algorithms is simply not a know quantity to anyone but the developers. Giving a fully accurate description as to what they do is therefore impossible. Definitely do not think about, say, Accuracy as an actual hit percentage where 100 is 100% accurate. It's just another data value fed into different algorithms.

In fact a device having a value X in the database does in no way mean that the value is actually used inside the game engine either. You'll note that the quote about the radar (which includes Sound Detector and Observer devices as they are also modelled as radars) only talks about the Range and Effect value, nothing about the Accuracy value. So who knows if the Accuracy value is used with radar devices? You'd have to set up a test scenario and test it out to know for sure.

For a less speculative example in stock radar devices can have a Penetration value of 500, this has no actual meaning according to JWE/Symon.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon
The ‘penetration’ of 500 for radars means nothing. In WiTP-1, it meant that the radar had an airsearch capability. In WiTP-AE there is an air search mode check box. Been like that since the original release. It is not looked at and you can put whatever you want in the field. Means nothing.


< Message edited by cardas -- 3/6/2018 12:59:04 AM >

(in reply to dcpollay)
Post #: 8
RE: Plane & Weapon database questions - 3/6/2018 6:24:22 PM   
durnedwolf


Posts: 872
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cardas

From the FAQ thread ( http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2260137 ):
quote:

7.4.1.1 AIR UNITS –RADAR:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2251019

While radar can have a range in excess of the 40NM hex, it does not extend outside the hex.

Instead, if the radar has a range of more than 40NM, it gets a number of extra chances to detect the raid equal to the number of hexes it could have reached. (range of 120NM would get 3 chances to detect raid, while a 40NM radar only the one).

Radar detects Airplanes. The longer the range the sooner it does so. The higher the effect the more accurate the data and the better your CAP will perform. There really isn't much more to it.



quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf
Can someone help me out with describing Acc, Effect, and how they are used in the game? I tried various searches within the pdf manual but I came up short.

For some device types in some cases this may correspond to a real world value. On the balance though it's helpful to simply disregard the names of these values, instead just consider them as dimensionless value A, value B an do so on. Now how they actually feed into various combat algorithms is simply not a know quantity to anyone but the developers. Giving a fully accurate description as to what they do is therefore impossible. Definitely do not think about, say, Accuracy as an actual hit percentage where 100 is 100% accurate. It's just another data value fed into different algorithms.

In fact a device having a value X in the database does in no way mean that the value is actually used inside the game engine either. You'll note that the quote about the radar (which includes Sound Detector and Observer devices as they are also modelled as radars) only talks about the Range and Effect value, nothing about the Accuracy value. So who knows if the Accuracy value is used with radar devices? You'd have to set up a test scenario and test it out to know for sure.

For a less speculative example in stock radar devices can have a Penetration value of 500, this has no actual meaning according to JWE/Symon.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon
The ‘penetration’ of 500 for radars means nothing. In WiTP-1, it meant that the radar had an airsearch capability. In WiTP-AE there is an air search mode check box. Been like that since the original release. It is not looked at and you can put whatever you want in the field. Means nothing.



Ahhh - this was much of what I was looking for. And the FAQ thread... I've got to spend more time in that thread. Thank you very much.



_____________________________


DW

I try to live by two words - tenacity and gratitude. Tenacity gets me where I want to go and gratitude ensures I'm not angry along the way. - Henry Winkler.

The great aim of education is not knowledge but action. - Herbert Spencer

(in reply to cardas)
Post #: 9
RE: Plane & Weapon database questions - 3/12/2018 7:47:14 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7015
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

benefit is that they give the user some kind of directional focus, although not specific like a radar contact,


Maybe not quite as good a directional focus as radar, but if properly used they could get pretty darn close. Saw a docu recently that showed their use and potential effectiveness, was quite impressed what such a simple device could achieve.

quote:

Range - I assume is altitude?


I can address this one as there's another thread here that discusses it and there's a link where MichaelM chimes in to explain. In game terms no search is done outside the target hex. IOW range = one hex = 40NM. What ranges > 40NM allow is multiple attempts to detect the raid. So if a radar has a range of 120NM it get three attempts to detect the raid.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to durnedwolf)
Post #: 10
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