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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably Historically

 
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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/7/2018 12:03:07 PM   
Centuur


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From: Hoorn (NED).
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No Winter war? In that war, the Soviets took losses which would mean the removal of two corps...

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Peter

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 61
RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/7/2018 9:50:55 PM   
rkr1958


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

No Winter war? In that war, the Soviets took losses which would mean the removal of two corps...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

No Winter war? In that war, the Soviets took losses which would mean the removal of two corps...
I struggle with several points on this war as well as with the Norwegian campaign. I'm still open to both if I can both historically modeled them well and really game them, not artificially game them, within MWiF. Let me list the points I'm struggling with (both historically and gaming them):

1. (gaming point) If the Germany player denies the claim, and assuming the Soviet player is ready, why would the Soviet player not immediately put a unit into Finland outside of the borderlands, say near Pestsamo, thus preventing the Germany player from every being able to enforce peace. Then, this would give the Soviet player almost 2-years to conquer Finland. While the Soviets would lose 2-chits, the Germans would lose the Pestsamo RP and any reasonable chance of threatening the Murmansk convoy when they did invade the USSR in the summer of 1941. And, not to mention that the Soviet northern flank would be 100% secure. I know these are all gaming considerations, but MWiF is the engine under which I have to resolve this.

2. (historical point) Now, Hitler was delighted over the winter war, the casualties the Soviets took and the embarrassment it caused the international community. In fact, some historians suggest the harm that the inferior size Finnish army inflicted on a much superior size Soviet army was confirmation of how easily German could invade the USSR, crush the Red Army and conquer the Soviet Union.

3. (historical point) Previously, I stated the hypothesis that Churchill championed, possibly even hatched, the allied plan for intervention/invasion of Norway in order to directly, or indirectly, support the Finns against the communist USSR. Also, and this is historically documented, the allies were saved a possible DOW on the USSR only because the Finns agreed to an armistice, in March 1940, with the Soviet Union before the British were ready to make such a DOW in support of the Finns. My reference for this "historical documentation" is from a 1970's interview, captured in BBC's a "World at War", with Chamberlain's private secretary (Sir John Colville). Now as Warspite pointed out in post 52, there was the Altmark Incident, in which the RN destroyer Cossack attacked the German tanker Altmark in Norwegian waters in order to free some 300 British prisoners onboard. So, was it the Altmark Incident or was it Churchill's planned invasion/intervention in Norway that prompted the German invasion of Norway. Mr. warspite also points out in post 52 that he doesn't believe the German spy network at that time was capable enough to have direct knowledge of the allies plans. However, could German intelligence have crediblly discerned allied intentions from non spy sources source (e.g., radio traffic, increased naval traffic in and around Norway)?

4. (historical & gaming point) As brian points out in post 55, it was the irreplaceable quality of Swedish iron ore that made protecting this source vital to the Germans even to the invasion of Norway to secure this source. He also goes on to point out that MWiF does not have an “Element in Flames (EIF)” kit, nor I believe do we wish to have one. Within, MWiF giving the Brits 13 CP’s and 2 transports, equivalent to 21 BP’s, in a “preemptive invasion of Norway” and at a time where significant German land and air forces would be tied up in such an operation when sorely needed on the Western Front just doesn’t make sense. On the flip side, an allied invasion of Norway in 1940, given the dirth of their forces and knowing that this would align Norway to Germany giving gifting them significant Norwegian ground and naval forces just doesn’t make sense either. So how does one resolve all this in an historical believable manner within the MWiF game engine?

HISTROICAL MOD CONSTRAINT. I probably should now explicitly state a constraint that I’ve been designing this mod against. I will (or plan to) only script political events within MWiF. With this I mean, DOW’s, demands made, claims denied, garrisons maintained, etc. At the fighting level just below all this I wish to attempt to implement the best MWiF strategies and tactics to win the campaign, or even the war, for all sides involved.

Phew … in conclusion to this post ... given all these considerations,

How do I accurately and acceptably play out the Winter War and Norwegian Campaign within MWiF during late 1939 and early 1940?


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Ronnie

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 62
RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/7/2018 10:25:42 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958


quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

No Winter war? In that war, the Soviets took losses which would mean the removal of two corps...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

No Winter war? In that war, the Soviets took losses which would mean the removal of two corps...
I struggle with several points on this war as well as with the Norwegian campaign. I'm still open to both if I can both historically modeled them well and really game them, not artificially game them, within MWiF. Let me list the points I'm struggling with (both historically and gaming them):

1. (gaming point) If the Germany player denies the claim, and assuming the Soviet player is ready, why would the Soviet player not immediately put a unit into Finland outside of the borderlands, say near Pestsamo, thus preventing the Germany player from every being able to enforce peace. Then, this would give the Soviet player almost 2-years to conquer Finland. While the Soviets would lose 2-chits, the Germans would lose the Pestsamo RP and any reasonable chance of threatening the Murmansk convoy when they did invade the USSR in the summer of 1941. And, not to mention that the Soviet northern flank would be 100% secure. I know these are all gaming considerations, but MWiF is the engine under which I have to resolve this.

2. (historical point) Now, Hitler was delighted over the winter war, the casualties the Soviets took and the embarrassment it caused the international community. In fact, some historians suggest the harm that the inferior size Finnish army inflicted on a much superior size Soviet army was confirmation of how easily German could invade the USSR, crush the Red Army and conquer the Soviet Union.

3. (historical point) Previously, I stated the hypothesis that Churchill championed, possibly even hatched, the allied plan for intervention/invasion of Norway in order to directly, or indirectly, support the Finns against the communist USSR. Also, and this is historically documented, the allies were saved a possible DOW on the USSR only because the Finns agreed to an armistice, in March 1940, with the Soviet Union before the British were ready to make such a DOW in support of the Finns. My reference for this "historical documentation" is from a 1970's interview, captured in BBC's a "World at War", with Chamberlain's private secretary (Sir John Colville). Now as Warspite pointed out in post 52, there was the Altmark Incident, in which the RN destroyer Cossack attacked the German tanker Altmark in Norwegian waters in order to free some 300 British prisoners onboard. So, was it the Altmark Incident or was it Churchill's planned invasion/intervention in Norway that prompted the German invasion of Norway. Mr. warspite also points out in post 52 that he doesn't believe the German spy network at that time was capable enough to have direct knowledge of the allies plans. However, could German intelligence have crediblly discerned allied intentions from non spy sources source (e.g., radio traffic, increased naval traffic in and around Norway)?

4. (historical & gaming point) As brian points out in post 55, it was the irreplaceable quality of Swedish iron ore that made protecting this source vital to the Germans even to the invasion of Norway to secure this source. He also goes on to point out that MWiF does not have an “Element in Flames (EIF)” kit, nor I believe do we wish to have one. Within, MWiF giving the Brits 13 CP’s and 2 transports, equivalent to 21 BP’s, in a “preemptive invasion of Norway” and at a time where significant German land and air forces would be tied up in such an operation when sorely needed on the Western Front just doesn’t make sense. On the flip side, an allied invasion of Norway in 1940, given the dirth of their forces and knowing that this would align Norway to Germany giving gifting them significant Norwegian ground and naval forces just doesn’t make sense either. So how does one resolve all this in an historical believable manner within the MWiF game engine?

HISTROICAL MOD CONSTRAINT. I probably should now explicitly state a constraint that I’ve been designing this mod against. I will (or plan to) only script political events within MWiF. With this I mean, DOW’s, demands made, claims denied, garrisons maintained, etc. At the fighting level just below all this I wish to attempt to implement the best MWiF strategies and tactics to win the campaign, or even the war, for all sides involved.

Phew … in conclusion to this post ... given all these considerations,

How do I accurately and acceptably play out the Winter War and Norwegian Campaign within MWiF during late 1939 and early 1940?

warspite1

Let's be absolutely clear here on the history side of things because there has been a couple of mentions of assisting Finland.

Britain and France (rightly) declared war on Germany in September 1939. Though it was the right thing to do, these two countries were in no way shape of form prepared for the war about to be fought and the way the respective governments went about ahem prosecuting the war in those opening months was a total shambles.

Finland was an excuse to get involved in Norway. Had the Anglo-French 'force' landed in Norway ahead of the Germans what exactly was supposed to happen? They hadn't got a clue but were relying on BOTH Norway and Sweden allowing the passage of British/French troops to cross through northern Norway and be happy for that to happen. Both countries rejected diplomatic moves to that effect - and I think its certain how Sweden (and probably Norway) would react to such a move in the flesh.

The Anglo-French forces that landed in Sweden was an excellent combined arms force.... excellent except it was too small, full of inexperienced, territorial troops, without AA or AT weaponry let alone tanks. There was no air cover save a belated attempt to put a handful of Gladiator biplanes onto a frozen lake (they lasted about 48 hours).

So these troops - barely a full Division, are going to hold their positions in Norway, while moving across difficult terrain (with few ski troops) and occupy and hold the Swedish ore fields. How many of these men are then going to move into Finland?

Let's say for a second that Norway agreed to side with the Western Allies, just what do the Germans do about it? They land in Southern Norway and as soon as they do, how many Allied troops are going to even think about heading for Sweden?

If Sweden was thinking of throwing in their lot with this hare-brained scheme, as soon as a) they realise the size of force committed by the Allies and b) the Germans land in Southern Norway then any possible thought along those lines goes out of the window.

The Western Allies went to war over the line in the sand that was Poland. But they didn't declare war on the USSR when Stalin invaded Poland - nor over the Baltic States, or Finland or Bessarabia. Even if the Western Allies wanted to get involved in helping 'plucky' Finland - and declaring war on the USSR in the meantime, then the grim realities of war would have quickly disabused them of that ridiculous notion.

How should this be treated in MWIF? Germany can invade Norway (the Western Allies can't). CW/France can't under the rules of WIF declare war on the USSR iirc and there is no reason for that to change. If the CW/French decide to contest Norway they are limited to sending one weak black-print (5-strength max) infantry corps to Norway, while France can send an infantry division only. This still leaves the major problem of why would Germany do this and detract from the French campaign? That I don't have a suggestion for

I think it sensible for Germany to allow the borderlands - otherwise you get into all that ahistorical peacekeeper stuff.

Combined with the Eastern Poland rule you put in place, the Soviets now have the border land of Finland, they have to properly invade Eastern Poland (and maybe garrison it too (although will need to do that anyway ultimately)) and have few troops left for ahistorical ventures.

As for the cost to the USSR of the Winter War - in the context of the size of the Red Army it means nothing. but by giving up the borderlands that is Mannerheim's raison d'etre for throwing in his lot with the Nazis to get back the territory lost.

Just my £0.02GBP


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/8/2018 6:19:30 AM >


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(in reply to rkr1958)
Post #: 63
RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/7/2018 11:19:13 PM   
rkr1958


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

The Anglo-French forces that landed in Sweden was an excellent combined arms force.... excellent except it was too small, full of inexperienced, territorial troops, without AA or AT weaponry let alone tanks. There was no air cover save a belated attempt to put a handful of Gladiator biplanes onto a frozen lake (they lasted about 48 hours).

So these troops - barely a full Division, are going to hold their positions in Norway, while moving across difficult terrain (with few ski troops) and occupy and hold the Swedish ore fields. How many of these men are then going to move into Finland?
Also, it's my understand as documented in "World at War", that while the British troops had snowshoes, the allies "forgot" to load the straps for the snowshoes and once landed stayed to the roads. Only the French troops were capable of moving cross country through the snow.

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Ronnie

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 64
RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 6:08:49 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

The Anglo-French forces that landed in Sweden was an excellent combined arms force.... excellent except it was too small, full of inexperienced, territorial troops, without AA or AT weaponry let alone tanks. There was no air cover save a belated attempt to put a handful of Gladiator biplanes onto a frozen lake (they lasted about 48 hours).

So these troops - barely a full Division, are going to hold their positions in Norway, while moving across difficult terrain (with few ski troops) and occupy and hold the Swedish ore fields. How many of these men are then going to move into Finland?
Also, it's my understand as documented in "World at War", that while the British troops had snowshoes, the allies "forgot" to load the straps for the snowshoes and once landed stayed to the roads. Only the French troops were capable of moving cross country through the snow.
warspite1

The whole thing was a total debacle.

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to rkr1958)
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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 6:22:04 AM   
Auchinleck

 

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What was 'fake' about the World At War series??? One of the better documentaries regarding World War II out there. Especially when compared to all the revisionist History Crapola Conspiracy Theory Nonsense being cranked out today.

(in reply to rkr1958)
Post #: 66
RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 1:14:55 PM   
rkr1958


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Auchinleck

What was 'fake' about the World At War series???
Not sure to whom you're referring to here? It's absolutely by far my definite source on the second world war. It was produced around interviews of those that were there, not just the grunts but a significant number of the world political and military leaders who shaped the war from both sides. It came out on television when I was in high school in the early 70's. Of course, like most here (I assume) I saw countless reruns in the 80's and 90's and finally got the series on DVD, for Christmas, 10-years or so ago. I've probably watched this series through at least a half of dozen times.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Auchinleck

One of the better documentaries regarding World War II out there. Especially when compared to all the revisionist History Crapola Conspiracy Theory Nonsense being cranked out today.
Agree 100%! Or, in the vernacular of the kids today ... +1


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Ronnie

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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 6:36:39 PM   
Centuur


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In the game, Finland is devided into the Borderlands and Finland itself. The reality for the Soviets in 1939 was, that there is only one Finland. If you would follow the historical events, you should place the Finnish army in the part of the Borderlands bordering Leningrad and force the Soviets to fight it head-on. Only if no enemy forces remain in the the borderlands, should USSR troops be allowed into Finland itself. This than simulates the Soviet plan which was to march to Helsinki. They planned to conquer the whole country, after the Finns rejected the "proposal" which the Soviets demanded before the war started.

In MWIF it's stated that Germany enforces the peace. In reality, Stalin and the Soviet military became worried about possible partisans in a fully conquered Finland. This was fueled by the way the Finns defended. Guerilla tactics were used to stop the first attack, causing the loss of at least 3 whole Soviet divisions in 1939. In Finland in those days, people were allowed to have firearms in their homes and soldiers kept their own rifles at home with ammunition...

After Timoshenko took over the command, the Soviets changed tactics. They attacked on a small frontline with an enormous numeral surplus of men and equipment. That second attack in february 1940 got the necessary breakthrough. But even after that attack, losses at the Soviet side were still mounting.

I believe that this was the main reason why Stalin did allow the Finns to sign the Peace of Moscow in 1940 and later in 1945 also allowed the Finns to remain an independent country...

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Peter

(in reply to rkr1958)
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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 7:06:56 PM   
rkr1958


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

In the game, Finland is devided into the Borderlands and Finland itself. The reality for the Soviets in 1939 was, that there is only one Finland. If you would follow the historical events, you should place the Finnish army in the part of the Borderlands bordering Leningrad and force the Soviets to fight it head-on. Only if no enemy forces remain in the the borderlands, should USSR troops be allowed into Finland itself. This than simulates the Soviet plan which was to march to Helsinki. They planned to conquer the whole country, after the Finns rejected the "proposal" which the Soviets demanded before the war started.

In MWIF it's stated that Germany enforces the peace. In reality, Stalin and the Soviet military became worried about possible partisans in a fully conquered Finland. This was fueled by the way the Finns defended. Guerilla tactics were used to stop the first attack, causing the loss of at least 3 whole Soviet divisions in 1939. In Finland in those days, people were allowed to have firearms in their homes and soldiers kept their own rifles at home with ammunition...

After Timoshenko took over the command, the Soviets changed tactics. They attacked on a small frontline with an enormous numeral surplus of men and equipment. That second attack in february 1940 got the necessary breakthrough. But even after that attack, losses at the Soviet side were still mounting.

I believe that this was the main reason why Stalin did allow the Finns to sign the Peace of Moscow in 1940 and later in 1945 also allowed the Finns to remain an independent country...
I'm game to give the Winter War a try. Though Norway is a no go. So, here's my thinking on the winter war:

1. Chit removal die roll is -18 for USSR to DOW Finland (i.e., 1 chit + 80% chance of a second chit). If Germany had (and they won’t) DOW’ed Norway, the die roll for adding a chit is +3 (only 30% chance). So, to “compensate” for this I will roll, and input that roll, using a -15 (i.e., -18+3), which means 1 chit + 50% chance of a second chit removed.
2. The Soviets are free to move into any Finnish hex, not just the borderlands. I will use my game file editing skills to return (non-borderland) hexes back to Finnish control and relocate Soviet units when needed to be able to “enforce a peace” during the conquest phase.
3. The war ends if either Viipuri or Petsamo is captured by the Soviets. However, if the Soviets are able to capture Helsinki and conquered Finland before that then more power to them.
4. German is not allowed to send in peacekeepers.

Actually, I'm looking forward to see how this goes.

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Ronnie

(in reply to Centuur)
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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 7:11:42 PM   
rkr1958


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Historical Mod & AAR (take 2). 2018-02.

Let's get this puppy started (again).




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Ronnie

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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 7:12:12 PM   
rkr1958


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Optional Rules.




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Ronnie

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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 7:13:51 PM   
rkr1958


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Cruisers in Flames.




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Ronnie

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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 7:16:21 PM   
rkr1958


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USSR Setup (1/4)




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Ronnie

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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 7:17:26 PM   
rkr1958


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USSR Setup (2/4)




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Ronnie

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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 7:18:11 PM   
rkr1958


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USSR Setup (3/4)




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Ronnie

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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 7:19:02 PM   
rkr1958


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USSR Setup (4/4)




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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 7:21:31 PM   
rkr1958


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The Warspite Rule. No scrapping of the Anson of Swordfish.




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Ronnie

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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 7:27:38 PM   
rkr1958


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Royal Navy Setup (1/4).

The following setup for the Royal Navy was my attempt to translate the tremendous amount of work Warspite's done in Naval War Day-by-Day

It definitely took some time but was a blast trying to translate the material from that thread (i.e., Warspite) into MWiF setups for the Royal Navy and Marine Nationale.




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< Message edited by rkr1958 -- 3/8/2018 7:28:19 PM >


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Ronnie

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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 7:28:51 PM   
rkr1958


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Royal Navy Setup (2/4).




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Ronnie

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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 7:29:21 PM   
rkr1958


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Royal Navy Setup (3/4).




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Ronnie

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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 7:29:43 PM   
rkr1958


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Royal Navy Setup (4/4).




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Ronnie

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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 7:32:59 PM   
rkr1958


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Marine Nationale Setup (1/3).

Continuing on translating work by Warspite to (French) naval setups in MWiF.




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Ronnie

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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 7:33:27 PM   
rkr1958


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Marine Nationale Setup (2/3).




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Ronnie

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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 7:33:53 PM   
rkr1958


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Marine Nationale Setup (3/3).




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Ronnie

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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 7:38:05 PM   
rkr1958


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Imperial Japanese Navy Setup (1/2).

The IJN setup is all hypothetical and done entirely by me. I don't know how necessary it was to organize the IJN in various division (carrier, battleship, cruiser) but it was a heck of a lot fun.




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Ronnie

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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 7:38:29 PM   
rkr1958


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Imperial Japanese Navy Setup (2/2).




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Ronnie

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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 9:02:05 PM   
warspite1


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I say old chap, that is a very colourful, striking presentation - it really grabs the attention. Just like the game itself in fact .

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 9:14:04 PM   
rkr1958


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I say old chap, that is a very colourful, striking presentation - it really grabs the attention. Just like the game itself in fact .
Thank you. It took time but it was a real pleasure going through your naval write ups. Impressive.


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Ronnie

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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 10:52:49 PM   
rkr1958


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Setup - China.

1. Two IJN marine corps on island directly southeast of Pusan will "walk across" to Korea first impulse. This will allow them to use the rail to get into the China instead of using up two transports. Though, this will disorganized them.

2. Yamaoto's HQ, MIL, Eng div, gun div are waiting in Fukuoka and Sasebo from transport into China. Yamaoto will form up and lead an army group around Nanking.

3. Natcom have deployed significant strength in the North (2 garrisons, MIL and Inf). Holding the north is not only important for the Chicom but important for the Natcom so they don't get flanked into the Chunking valley as happened to me two games back.




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Ronnie

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RE: An Attempt to use MWiF to Simulated WW2 Reasonably ... - 3/8/2018 11:04:52 PM   
rkr1958


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Status: offline
PREVIOUS GAME.

Below is the situation in China in two games ago in early Mar/Apr 1940. As you can see the axis got amazing, unbelievable, weather and as such were able to push hard in China. It was this game where I realized how vulnerable the Chungking valley is to flanking from the north, especially if the Japanese can break the Chicom lines there. In this game I deployed minimum Natcom force in the north, one of which was a warlord which restricted its movement.




Attachment (1)

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Ronnie

(in reply to rkr1958)
Post #: 90
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