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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 6/20/2018 1:53:34 PM   
Joseignacio


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The brand new version of the Board Game (with relevant differences from MWIF with the pass of time), stands for World in Flames, Collector's Edition

https://www.a-d-g.com.au/collections/world-in-flames-collectors-edition/products/copy-of-world-in-flames-collectors-edition-deluxe-game-available-soon


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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 6/20/2018 1:59:22 PM   
GrizzlyKt


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hi Joseignacio thank you for your help nice one

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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 6/20/2018 4:34:44 PM   
Centuur


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Here's the "state of the game"... http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4388273

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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 6/20/2018 7:47:16 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

The "problem" now is that the game is dated with the advent of WiFCE. I'm less likely to buy this, even with an AI, with the components not being up to date. Blame ADG I guess, but this is the cold hard fact regarding my own inclinations at least.

Not sure that 'blame' is applicable. ADG made a deal and the game was computerized. That was long ago and that was the last time ADG had any direct role in the making of MWiF. (Indirectly Harry i.e ADG, did provide answers to rules questions during development.)

5 years after MWiF gets published, ADG is releasing the Collector's edition board game version with many, many changes to the rules of the game since circa 2006 - 2009, which MWiF is based on.

Either way you are playing World in Flames, just different versions.

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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 6/20/2018 9:51:16 PM   
davidachamberlain

 

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There is always the potential that updates could be fit into Steve's roadmap. Once the functionality is stable, updates to the maps, counter inventory, the rule changes could probably happen. However, it would not be in the short term.

Dave

< Message edited by davidachamberlain -- 6/20/2018 9:52:29 PM >

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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 6/21/2018 4:31:05 AM   
Grotius


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quote:

hi what is this WiFCE thank you for your help


WiF Collector's Edition is the latest edition of the boardgame. It just shipped a month ago. It uses a new map and a new ruleset (Rules as Written 8, or RAW 8). It's not radically different from Matrix WIF, which uses a somewhat different map and RAW 7.

I think MWiF still has plenty of value -- and I say this as an owner of WiFCE. MWiF has some features not possible in the board game. The most obvious is a worldwide map on the same scale. The boardgame has a Pacific map whose hexes represent larger distances than its European map, and it has an American mini-map whose hexes represent even larger distances. MWiF also enforces the rules for you, and let me tell you, that is no small thing. I'm loving CE, but I'm surprised how much I've come to rely on MWiF's rules enforcement as a crutch. In fact, I run MWiF alongside CE to "check" myself as I make rules decisions.

As for the state of MWiF, the developer (Shannon O'keets, better known as Steve) posts a monthly update that's stickied in this forum. Solitaire and Netplay are both in pretty good shape, if you ask me. AI will take several years, alas, but the game is really well-suited to solitaire play, PBEM against a human player, or "live" Netplay against a player.

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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 6/21/2018 7:43:12 AM   
Joseignacio


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Both games are WIF but they are VERY different.

Along the way the WIF has evolved, we have seen how some small changes in rules de-balance or re-balance the game once and again, WIF 8.XX has many small changes, and some not so small ones, even big ones. It's obviously a WIF but it's obviously a different WIF. Maybe a descendant?

For example complete surrender of a designated second home country, naval warfare both surface (sreening, search, ...) and even more submarine, which is not viable after 43 except some scarce distant skirmishes.

One small change but relevant is what happens when lake Ladoga melts and your units are on it... but there are so many of these... Still finding out.


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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 6/21/2018 7:48:10 AM   
Joseignacio


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One thing Steven said from the beginning, and now it clearer than ever, is that he didn't intend to follow the rule changes of WIF because that would stall advance in the rest of the fields.

Now it's more clear than ever, with so many game-stopping bugs, with no operative NetPlay, no PBEM , few scenarios, not all optionals that were promised (yet), far from AI, ... The last thing Steve should do is review and edit the routines that he finally got to work.

Better to have a WIF 7.0 working (some day) than a WIF 8.107 even worse than what we have now. And WIF 7.0 (MWIF) would still be the best computer strategy game ever (to date).

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 6/21/2018 10:13:45 AM >

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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 6/21/2018 4:17:59 PM   
paulderynck


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Also the universal map scale and unlimited breakdown optional are two major differences between MWiF and RAW7. They are like brothers and CE (RAW8) is like a cousin.

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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 6/21/2018 4:36:46 PM   
gw15


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My experience in solitaire is very good. Played the whole thing through twice.
Recent fixes for netplay is, in my opinion, 99% there.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

One thing Steven said from the beginning, and now it clearer than ever, is that he didn't intend to follow the rule changes of WIF because that would stall advance in the rest of the fields.

Now it's more clear than ever, with so many game-stopping bugs, with no operative NetPlay, no PBEM , few scenarios, not all optionals that were promised (yet), far from AI, ... The last thing Steve should do is review and edit the routines that he finally got to work.

Better to have a WIF 7.0 working (some day) than a WIF 8.107 even worse than what we have now. And WIF 7.0 (MWIF) would still be the best computer strategy game ever (to date).


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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 8/14/2018 11:23:55 AM   
LeeChard

 

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I bought the game knowing there was no AI. I effectively invested in the project to help move it along.
I've played solitaire a couple of times but I don't find it very satisfying.

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Post #: 41
RE: Has AI been implemented? - 8/14/2018 3:57:39 PM   
gw15


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There is PBEM, works just like solitaire except you send files back and forth.
Not many game stopping bugs any longer. I have played 2 full games solitaire until 1945. However, I usually don't have some of the weird conquer situations I see recently that are causing bugs.
Netplay...99% there. When a new update comes out it will be 99.9%.
I feel your frustration though. 10 years, right.
Raw 8 has some neat changes but not enough to change the MWIF raw 7. I'm an old guy so I like raw 7 much better than raw 8 simply because I learned raw 7.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

One thing Steven said from the beginning, and now it clearer than ever, is that he didn't intend to follow the rule changes of WIF because that would stall advance in the rest of the fields.

Now it's more clear than ever, with so many game-stopping bugs, with no operative NetPlay, no PBEM , few scenarios, not all optionals that were promised (yet), far from AI, ... The last thing Steve should do is review and edit the routines that he finally got to work.

Better to have a WIF 7.0 working (some day) than a WIF 8.107 even worse than what we have now. And WIF 7.0 (MWIF) would still be the best computer strategy game ever (to date).



< Message edited by gw15 -- 8/14/2018 3:58:21 PM >

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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 8/15/2018 5:02:39 AM   
Sabre21


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So far my experiences with Netplay have been pretty bad. I haven't been able to get past turn 5 of the Global war game yet due to a myriad of bugs. I've had the game since release and the guy I game with (Bloodybill), both of us have pretty much given up trying to do Netplay. I'm not into the solitaire aspect of the game but Bloodybill does like it.


I've been playing WiF from day one and still have the original first version along with 5 and 7. I recently received the Collector's Edition Deluxe a few weeks ago and 3 of us are about to embark on a Global War 39 campaign starting next week.

There are tons of changes to Raw 8, not just in the ruleset, but on the counters and with the map. Personally I think this is the best version yet. I really like what they have done with offensive points and how the oil rules have changed. A lot of changes to minor country order's of battle now with the inclusion of reserve militia units in places like Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium, Iran, Iraq and many others. It's going to be interesting seeing how this new version plays out.

< Message edited by Sabre21 -- 8/15/2018 3:02:04 PM >


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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 8/15/2018 7:30:43 AM   
juntoalmar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gw15

Not many game stopping bugs any longer. [...]
Netplay...99% there. When a new update comes out it will be 99.9%.
got to work.



Then we should be ok in 2-4 months maximum to start moving forward to new goals, don't we? In your experience, do you feel new bugs will pop-up? Or things have been pretty stable recently?

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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 8/15/2018 11:44:18 AM   
michaelbaldur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar


quote:

ORIGINAL: gw15

Not many game stopping bugs any longer. [...]
Netplay...99% there. When a new update comes out it will be 99.9%.
got to work.



Then we should be ok in 2-4 months maximum to start moving forward to new goals, don't we? In your experience, do you feel new bugs will pop-up? Or things have been pretty stable recently?


when you fix bugs, you make bugs.

solitaire is mostly fuctional, but sometimes something funky happens, so I have not finished the game in years.

as I see it, the most bugs are in supply and Vichy. but to be fair both of those areas are really complex.

when we started to test Vichy, many years ago. I predicted, that the last bug fixed, would be a vichy bug.





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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 8/15/2018 3:01:26 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar


quote:

ORIGINAL: gw15

Not many game stopping bugs any longer. [...]
Netplay...99% there. When a new update comes out it will be 99.9%.
got to work.



Then we should be ok in 2-4 months maximum to start moving forward to new goals, don't we? In your experience, do you feel new bugs will pop-up? Or things have been pretty stable recently?


I'm afraid new ones will pop-up. We're still finding new bugs (yesterday we've had problems restoring autosaves for Netplay f.e.), but the huge problems we did encounter in air-to-air combat and naval combat seems to have been cleared. There's still a nasty one around, concerning aborting planes due to Anti Aircraft fire.

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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 8/16/2018 2:08:29 PM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

So far my experiences with Netplay have been pretty bad. I haven't been able to get past turn 5 of the Global war game yet due to a myriad of bugs. I've had the game since release and the guy I game with (Bloodybill), both of us have pretty much given up trying to do Netplay. I'm not into the solitaire aspect of the game but Bloodybill does like it.


I've been playing WiF from day one and still have the original first version along with 5 and 7. I recently received the Collector's Edition Deluxe a few weeks ago and 3 of us are about to embark on a Global War 39 campaign starting next week.

There are tons of changes to Raw 8, not just in the ruleset, but on the counters and with the map. Personally I think this is the best version yet. I really like what they have done with offensive points and how the oil rules have changed. A lot of changes to minor country order's of battle now with the inclusion of reserve militia units in places like Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium, Iran, Iraq and many others. It's going to be interesting seeing how this new version plays out.


I would agree that it's the best version and changes have been extremely good.

What doesn't mean there are no setbacks as the really stupid sub warfare values, which makes it difficult anytime and impossible after 1941. A real nonsense.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 8/16/2018 2:09:11 PM >

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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 8/16/2018 4:23:02 PM   
gw15


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We are using raw8 in a Vassal game but I'm not playing the Axis.
Paul - are subs way under powered after 41?

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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 8/16/2018 4:59:59 PM   
paulderynck


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I don't think so. One notable change for the better is subs do not lose a factor each in surface combat. If the ASW values seem high then perhaps the table of their values (see 11.5.10 in the rules) versus the kits used is being interpreted incorrectly. After all, no matter which kits you use, BBs are worth nothing. Also the first version of the rules - since erratisized - had CAs worth 4 each in '43 and thereafter when playing with CLs. This was a typo - they should be 1 each.

Also the criticism may be true if the CL option is used. If you're naval nut and want to play with ALLL! the ships then you may want to use CLs but personally I think the CL option should not be used as it is way too allied-friendly.

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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 8/16/2018 9:10:11 PM   
Sabre21


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I don't think so. One notable change for the better is subs do not lose a factor each in surface combat. If the ASW values seem high then perhaps the table of their values (see 11.5.10 in the rules) versus the kits used is being interpreted incorrectly. After all, no matter which kits you use, BBs are worth nothing. Also the first version of the rules - since erratisized - had CAs worth 4 each in '43 and thereafter when playing with CLs. This was a typo - they should be 1 each.

Also the criticism may be true if the CL option is used. If you're naval nut and want to play with ALLL! the ships then you may want to use CLs but personally I think the CL option should not be used as it is way too allied-friendly.


I'm using all the options for naval in the game I'm about to start and CoiF option 7 caps light cruiser ASW at 2 each from 41 on. CV's and Ca's remain at 1 each for the war. You also can add in naval factors on planes aboard any carriers and each 5 CP's get 1 ASW factor now.


ASW ships are now integrated into a few convoy chits that now consist of 3 cp's and either a scs or cve group. There's not too many of those though and they don't start coming available until 41.


You can also interdict most subs now with sub-hunter aircraft forcing subs to either stop or fight thru a sea zone. These don't come available until 42 and are few and far between.


From the sub perspective, a single naval move now allows a major power at war to move all his subs from as many ports that he chooses and with the new way of having a land/sea action using offensive points (no more chits) opens up all new kinds of strategies.





< Message edited by Sabre21 -- 8/16/2018 9:35:32 PM >


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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 8/17/2018 8:05:19 AM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

I don't think so. One notable change for the better is subs do not lose a factor each in surface combat. If the ASW values seem high then perhaps the table of their values (see 11.5.10 in the rules) versus the kits used is being interpreted incorrectly. After all, no matter which kits you use, BBs are worth nothing. Also the first version of the rules - since erratisized - had CAs worth 4 each in '43 and thereafter when playing with CLs. This was a typo - they should be 1 each.

Also the criticism may be true if the CL option is used. If you're naval nut and want to play with ALLL! the ships then you may want to use CLs but personally I think the CL option should not be used as it is way too allied-friendly.


It's difficult for me to explain why, because the 8.xxx rules are changing all the times and it difficult to be updated.

What I say comes from a recent experience, I just finished a game with 8.107 (?) where I was GE. After '41, the values go insane: 2 each SCS not BB (like in older rulesets), 1 each 5 convoys (way too much for game balance), 1 per CV, 1 per air ot sea factor with the right climate.

When you consider all this in a game, you'll experience how sub warfare is kaputt.

First you have to find the enemy (as always) and the enemy not find you.

Let's say you are in box 2 or 3 depending on the sea you are attacking and then you can have a 0 or -1 because of wheather, plus the number of convoys divided by 5. Let's say you have a 30 - 40% probabilities to find the enemy. The higher boxes escorts may be in box 3 or 4 modified by cliimate. Let's call it a modified 3.

you'd have a 60 or 70% not to find, the convoys but in this case there would be a 30% that the escorts finded you. You also have a 30-40% to find the convoys and then there will be a 30-40% that the enemy finds you.

This means the probabiliy that you¡:

- don't find anything but the upper boxes escorts find you, it is (let's convert the 30-40% into a 35%) : 65%*30% = 19.5%. This is called complete desaster, since it's pretty usual that there is at least one battleship in the upper levels, ans the combat is Surface , no Sub. Plus they have usually a lower surprise roll.

- don't find anything and they don't find you: 65% * 70%= 45.5% You are not f*cked but you spend a/some naval move/s for nothing.

- find them but you are found by upper boxes escorts: 35%*30% = 10.5% Disaster as well, still found by upper escorts including some BB usually with Surprise on their side. And it's a Surface combat, not Subs.

-find the convoys and you are not found. Only favourable scenario: 35% * 70% = 24.5%.

This means 30% (19.55+10.5%) disaster, no conv sunk, several subs damaged or sunk. 45% you activate for nothing. 25% some posibilities at a high cost, see what follows:

Even in this last case (probability under 1:4) if there is any plane (NAV, CV) or several of them (and the weather is not storm or blizzard) you still have to spend some (variable) surprise points to change from Naval air combat. If you don't, it will be air to sea which means you cannot attack convoys. Disastrous, you get hits and do nothing.

If you are lucky enogh to have enough surprise to be able to use surprise to attack convoys in spite of the planes,...

... you still need to use it to avoid complete destruction of your subs: the combat value of the escorts is cumulative and it's not strange to find like 2 or 3 points because of 6+ convoys or 10+ convoys, plus like 6-10 from 4-5 escorts plus possibly one for a CV (maybe light CV), plus planes (CV +NAV).

It means you WILL most probably have a roll for a wolf pack sunk (at least)in exchange for one convoy pack or maybe 1 X + 1D.


Real, Real Nonsense.

Note: BB worth 0 only if using an optional, although in this case I guess you don't get CLs or get fewer.

Note 2: The statistics worsen if there is a plane or CV in the upper level escort and they can fly (climate) by a 10%, affecting the rest of the calculations.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 8/17/2018 12:43:45 PM >

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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 8/17/2018 3:30:00 PM   
paulderynck


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Much of what you say is true, but has always been true since at least RAW7. Nothing new here. However, the latest CE rules have been stable for months now and BBs are not worth any ASW anytime.

Also the stats you give are essentially for always attacking when moving second. There are times to attack and times not to attack.



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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 8/18/2018 9:46:27 PM   
Grotius


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Jose, would you mind if I quote or link your post over in the BoardGameGeek forums? There are a couple guys there who insist that subs are stronger in CE than in RAW7, and I'm curious to see how they'd respond to your post. I'm still learning CE -- I'm in S/O '39 of my first solo Global War -- so I don't know enough to reply myself.

< Message edited by Grotius -- 8/21/2018 2:38:56 AM >


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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 8/20/2018 7:42:25 AM   
Joseignacio


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You can do it freely. I will comment Paul's post later, but basically it's true that most of what I said was there earlier, but it was an unbalanced sub warfare earlier and the small enworsements just made it a little bit worse, which is simply unbearable.

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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 8/20/2018 7:56:48 AM   
juntoalmar


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Taking into account that the thread's name is "Has AI been implemented?" perhaps this discussion could be moved to a new thread. Not for me (I have followed the thread from the beginning) but I was thinking about a newbie entering here for the first time and that he could be pretty confused with talks about AI, RAW7, CE...

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RE: Has AI been implemented? - 8/20/2018 8:02:37 AM   
Joseignacio


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Sure, it's not usual in the forum, as you well know. I will create a new thread to debate subs features (in case someone wants to go on with it).

Done!

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4522523&mpage=1&key=�

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 8/20/2018 8:09:58 AM >

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