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Armored Defense Strengths? - 2/25/2018 1:38:01 PM   
VHauser


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The .eqp editor seems to be forcing the upper limit of armored defense strengths to 7.

Is there any way to increase armored defense strengths above 7?

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RE: Armored Defense Strengths? - 2/25/2018 2:34:27 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 11483
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online
The in-game Equipment Editor has a bug with armored equipment described in post #11 here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4412492

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to VHauser)
Post #: 2
RE: Armored Defense Strengths? - 2/25/2018 2:57:20 PM   
VHauser


Posts: 250
Joined: 5/7/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The in-game Equipment Editor has a bug with armored equipment described in post #11 here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4412492


So, as of today there is no way to increase armored defense strengths above 7, correct?

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Member since May 2000 (as VictorHauser)

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 3
RE: Armored Defense Strengths? - 2/25/2018 4:51:46 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 11483
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: VHauser


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The in-game Equipment Editor has a bug with armored equipment described in post #11 here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4412492


So, as of today there is no way to increase armored defense strengths above 7, correct?

No. If you increase the armor thickness, the defense strength will go up. The M1A2 has a defense strength of 11, for example.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to VHauser)
Post #: 4
RE: Armored Defense Strengths? - 2/25/2018 5:05:32 PM   
VHauser


Posts: 250
Joined: 5/7/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: VHauser


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The in-game Equipment Editor has a bug with armored equipment described in post #11 here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4412492


So, as of today there is no way to increase armored defense strengths above 7, correct?

No. If you increase the armor thickness, the defense strength will go up. The M1A2 has a defense strength of 11, for example.


Will there ever be a time when I can increase armor defense strength stand alone (without being dependent on other factors such as armor thickness)?

In other words, will there ever be a time when I can make armored defense strengths any value that I want (just like non-armored defense strengths)? [I'm dead in the water on my scenario design until the answer to this question is yes.]

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Member since May 2000 (as VictorHauser)

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 5
RE: Armored Defense Strengths? - 2/25/2018 5:38:04 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 11483
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: VHauser


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: VHauser


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The in-game Equipment Editor has a bug with armored equipment described in post #11 here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4412492


So, as of today there is no way to increase armored defense strengths above 7, correct?

No. If you increase the armor thickness, the defense strength will go up. The M1A2 has a defense strength of 11, for example.


Will there ever be a time when I can increase armor defense strength stand alone (without being dependent on other factors such as armor thickness)?

In other words, will there ever be a time when I can make armored defense strengths any value that I want (just like non-armored defense strengths)? [I'm dead in the water on my scenario design until the answer to this question is yes.]

Why? What do you suppose the Defense Strength of armored equipment is used for?

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to VHauser)
Post #: 6
RE: Armored Defense Strengths? - 2/25/2018 6:11:40 PM   
VHauser


Posts: 250
Joined: 5/7/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: VHauser


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: VHauser


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The in-game Equipment Editor has a bug with armored equipment described in post #11 here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4412492


So, as of today there is no way to increase armored defense strengths above 7, correct?

No. If you increase the armor thickness, the defense strength will go up. The M1A2 has a defense strength of 11, for example.


Will there ever be a time when I can increase armor defense strength stand alone (without being dependent on other factors such as armor thickness)?

In other words, will there ever be a time when I can make armored defense strengths any value that I want (just like non-armored defense strengths)? [I'm dead in the water on my scenario design until the answer to this question is yes.]

Why? What do you suppose the Defense Strength of armored equipment is used for?


By your reply, I can only surmise that the answer is no. It was a simple yes or no question--you didn't need to deflect by answering a question with another question. But your deflection is an answer of no.

Oh well. It is a shame, though, that by NOT making editing armored defense strengths the same as editing non-armored defense strengths (in terms of being independent, not tied to any other factors), the game is not made stronger (more robust).

I do have skill as a programmer. I'd be happy to make the changes. Who do I need to talk to to get authorization to do so?



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Member since May 2000 (as VictorHauser)

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 7
RE: Armored Defense Strengths? - 2/25/2018 6:24:51 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 11483
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: VHauser

By your reply, I can only surmise that the answer is no. It was a simple yes or no question--you didn't need to deflect by answering a question with another question. But your deflection is an answer of no.

Oh well. It is a shame, though, that by NOT making editing armored defense strengths the same as editing non-armored defense strengths (in terms of being independent, not tied to any other factors), the game is not made stronger (more robust).


I didn't know what you were trying to do. I seem to recall some folks wanting to model body armor via the armor settings. And the day may come when body armor is an available factor.

If, on the other hand, you're talking about normal tanks, then the answer is indeed no. That's because, for non-armored equipment, the DF factor actually affects the survivability of the equipment against AP. But, for armored equipment, the survivability is set by its armor thickness. The Defense Strength of armored equipment is just a display value to give the player an idea of how tough the equipment is to kill. It has to be derived from the armor thickness.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to VHauser)
Post #: 8
RE: Armored Defense Strengths? - 2/28/2018 12:07:45 PM   
The Land

 

Posts: 201
Joined: 2/19/2010
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quote:

If, on the other hand, you're talking about normal tanks, then the answer is indeed no. That's because, for non-armored equipment, the DF factor actually affects the survivability of the equipment against AP. But, for armored equipment, the survivability is set by its armor thickness. The Defense Strength of armored equipment is just a display value to give the player an idea of how tough the equipment is to kill. It has to be derived from the armor thickness.


I've been looking at the manual a lot on this recently and just wanted to confirm my understanding:

A unit is either armoured or not. (Armoured checkbox is ticked or not).

If it is armoured, then any fire at is uses the armour penentration rules set out in the rulebook (a roll to hit based on targeting level and terrain/environment, followed by a roll to penetrate based on the ratio of armour penetration to thickness). The defence stat is not relevant (and as you've described the game 'helpfully' adjusts it)

If it is not armoured, then any fire at it uses the ratio of anti-personnel to defence ratio to determine success. There is no rule to hit or to penetrate. (Does anyone know what the formula used here is?) The armour stat is not relevant.

When firing, a unit will make either an anti-personnel or anti-armour shot. The game engine attempts to have the units with the highest armour piercing rating target the enemies with the highest armour rating, with a bit of randomness.

I've seen it implied that the Infantry tag somehow contradicts the Armor tag i.e. you cannot have Infantry and Armor on the same unit (or if you try, it malfunctions somehow). Is this the case and if so does it apply to cavalry?

The manual says the Agile tag reduces the chance of the target being hit. Does this apply to both kinds of fire?

And ... what does the Shock Cavalry tag do? Any ideas at all? :)









(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 9
RE: Armored Defense Strengths? - 2/28/2018 3:08:00 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 11483
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land

I've been looking at the manual a lot on this recently and just wanted to confirm my understanding:

A unit is either armoured or not. (Armoured checkbox is ticked or not).


Equipment is either armored or not. Units can have soft and hard equipment in them at the same time.

quote:

If it is armoured, then any fire at is uses the armour penentration rules set out in the rulebook (a roll to hit based on targeting level and terrain/environment, followed by a roll to penetrate based on the ratio of armour penetration to thickness). The defence stat is not relevant (and as you've described the game 'helpfully' adjusts it)


That's correct - for armored equipment.

quote:

If it is not armoured, then any fire at it uses the ratio of anti-personnel to defence ratio to determine success. There is no rule to hit or to penetrate. (Does anyone know what the formula used here is?) The armour stat is not relevant.


AP is used against soft targets. DF figures in there somehow.

quote:

When firing, a unit will make either an anti-personnel or anti-armour shot. The game engine attempts to have the units with the highest armour piercing rating target the enemies with the highest armour rating, with a bit of randomness.


Replace unit with equipment and that's about right.

quote:

I've seen it implied that the Infantry tag somehow contradicts the Armor tag i.e. you cannot have Infantry and Armor on the same unit (or if you try, it malfunctions somehow). Is this the case and if so does it apply to cavalry?


Units can have infantry and armor in them at the same time. I don't know how equipment with the infantry flag and the armor flag both set is going to work.

quote:

The manual says the Agile tag reduces the chance of the target being hit. Does this apply to both kinds of fire?


I would think so, but I'm not sure. Do some tests.

quote:

And ... what does the Shock Cavalry tag do? Any ideas at all? :)


No idea. It's not even commented on in the code. Again, do some tests.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to The Land)
Post #: 10
RE: Armored Defense Strengths? - 2/28/2018 3:12:01 PM   
The Land

 

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Joined: 2/19/2010
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Yup, I was definitely saying "unit" when I meant "equipment" - thanks for the answers! And yeah I'll give "shock cavalry" a go and see what happens

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 11
RE: Armored Defense Strengths? - 2/28/2018 9:53:03 PM   
The Land

 

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Joined: 2/19/2010
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So first time I've tested this kind of thing in TOAW and I had to make sure that all the units were set to 'veteran' and had enough firepower to get 'assault' not 'weakly assault' combats, and 'minimize losses' to try to get results from one round of combat...

But after a couple of dozen tests, "shock cavalry" seem to inflict fewer losses when attacking enemy infantry than an identical unit that doesn't have the "shock cavalry" feature.

(in reply to The Land)
Post #: 12
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