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RE: Advanced Strike Planner

 
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RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/6/2018 10:28:43 PM   
Cik

 

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what i mean is, it's not an abstract game. i don't tell my carrier group to collide with another carrier group and then a die is rolled with some modifiers to determine the result.

having a mission planner that allows me to plan missions - that is to tell individual planes what to do when approaching / departing steerpoints is a relatively important function of mission planning.

i don't know if you can call it a mission planner if you can't plot steerpoints and steerpoint related actions. because that's essentially what planning a mission is. am i wrong?

(in reply to Raptorx7_slith)
Post #: 91
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/7/2018 2:08:11 PM   
Dimitris

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VFA41_Lion
Until recently, you couldn't tell your pilots when to drop chaff. We still can't make them drop flares. We can't individually control their actions when they're defending against threats.


I'm afraid you may be mistaken.

You can, in fact, take full control of an aircraft by setting appropriate doctrine values (especially "automatic evasion"). Chaff and flares are deployed automatically at the appropriate time, because this is not a push-button flight-sim.

quote:


Its all agility and probability to hit and decoy spoofing modifiers and ultimately comes down to a bunch of dice rolls.

There are times I wish Command was open-source, so that I could show you just how complex things are under the hood.

We're trying to show you complex things in simple terms & fashion, so that you don't become overwhelmed, and obviously we succeed so well that you think things are simple.

Let's just say they're not.

_____________________________


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Post #: 92
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/7/2018 3:34:28 PM   
butch4343

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: emsoy

Okay how about this...

In order to be releasable within a reasonable time frame, Advanced Mission Planner (aka AMP) v1.0 could include:

Editable flightplans: pre-take-off route planning (move, insert, delete waypoints), waypoint speed/altitude, waypoint doctrine and refueling settings
Configurable Time-On-Target (ToT) or Time-On-Station
Strike packages


The AMP v1.0 will NOT be a hands off 'one click does it all' mission tool. In fact, realistically, such a feature will probably never materialize. Simply too much work.

And it will not have detailed weapon allocation and cruise missile planning. That alone could add years to the development schedule.

It will also be a paid add-on. Given the massive time and effort that would go into this, it might in fact be a premium price product.



So it would basically give you this:

Will that work for everyone?

Thanks










Emsoy,


This looks fantastic in terms of additional features for the advanced strike planner, could I ask as a scenario designer, that this be used with the scenario editior?

For me the strike planner is about creating a scenario where I can have my flight of Fencers/ Eagles/ Badgers Ect, fly a profile of my choosing, Ie to waypoint 1 fly at 25000ft at cruise, Waypoint 2 drop to 250 feet at afterburner.

If you give me that, it means I can choose very specific profiles, because with the best will in the world you guys cant create profiles (Hi-Lo-Hi, Lo-Lo-Lo) for every eventuality.

Its important for scenario designers to manually set strike mission parameters for the AI to execute.

Yours Respectfully

Butch


(in reply to ComDev)
Post #: 93
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/7/2018 7:18:48 PM   
VFA41_Lion


Posts: 228
Joined: 1/30/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dimitris

quote:

ORIGINAL: VFA41_Lion
Until recently, you couldn't tell your pilots when to drop chaff. We still can't make them drop flares. We can't individually control their actions when they're defending against threats.


I'm afraid you may be mistaken.

You can, in fact, take full control of an aircraft by setting appropriate doctrine values (especially "automatic evasion"). Chaff and flares are deployed automatically at the appropriate time, because this is not a push-button flight-sim.

quote:


Its all agility and probability to hit and decoy spoofing modifiers and ultimately comes down to a bunch of dice rolls.

There are times I wish Command was open-source, so that I could show you just how complex things are under the hood.

We're trying to show you complex things in simple terms & fashion, so that you don't become overwhelmed, and obviously we succeed so well that you think things are simple.

Let's just say they're not.


I know its incredibly complex down under the hood (i've seen some screenshots from emsoy on his database works which probably doesnt come close to scratching the surface). I was just trying to make a point that Command is not a 'mostly' airplane combat game.

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Post #: 94
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/8/2018 2:31:24 AM   
BDukes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dimitris

quote:

ORIGINAL: VFA41_Lion
Until recently, you couldn't tell your pilots when to drop chaff. We still can't make them drop flares. We can't individually control their actions when they're defending against threats.


I'm afraid you may be mistaken.

You can, in fact, take full control of an aircraft by setting appropriate doctrine values (especially "automatic evasion"). Chaff and flares are deployed automatically at the appropriate time, because this is not a push-button flight-sim.

quote:


Its all agility and probability to hit and decoy spoofing modifiers and ultimately comes down to a bunch of dice rolls.

There are times I wish Command was open-source, so that I could show you just how complex things are under the hood.

We're trying to show you complex things in simple terms & fashion, so that you don't become overwhelmed, and obviously we succeed so well that you think things are simple.

Let's just say they're not.


Mr. Dimitris

If its true we can do all of this already in the game. Why do we need the advanced planner? Very confusing signals coming from all of you. Your posts have a lot of "we're doing this but it's hard" or "may be difficult to use or will require many hours to learn how to use". Do you understand a reader's perspective when they see this coming from the developer?

I'm worried this is going to be another screen full of buttons and learning a very complex interface for not much gain. I support you guys but this seems almost like somebody's pet project that ran away. You have a few flight sim nerds on board but not sure they know much about how games appeal to normal people. I know I can choose not to buy it but I would really like to.

I hope you understand. Please do not be angry. Thank you!



< Message edited by BDukes -- 2/8/2018 2:32:09 AM >

(in reply to Dimitris)
Post #: 95
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/8/2018 2:38:56 AM   
BDukes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dimitris

There are times I wish Command was open-source, so that I could show you just how complex things are under the hood.

We're trying to show you complex things in simple terms & fashion, so that you don't become overwhelmed, and obviously we succeed so well that you think things are simple.

Let's just say they're not.


Haha. Bet you lots of old pooners who have questions about Commands source would like to see this as well.Silly. Hope you're butt isn't clenched like a mouth full of sour candy.

Anyways why don't you open up the openable parts? You can keep the super secret stuff locked. Seems like there are lots of devs on this fori with lots of insane ideas. You could also see after their huff and puff who can really walk their talk. Likewise they can see your talent as well so when you yell they know why.

THank You!



< Message edited by BDukes -- 2/8/2018 2:39:29 AM >

(in reply to Dimitris)
Post #: 96
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/8/2018 4:41:29 AM   
Rory Noonan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BDukes
Blah blah blah blah

This is why we can't have nice things.

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Post #: 97
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/8/2018 5:50:13 AM   
BDukes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: apache85

quote:

ORIGINAL: BDukes
Blah blah blah blah

This is why we can't have nice things.


Why did you change my quote to that. That’s very unprofessional. Do you know how to disagree without contempt ?

I think the next thing I won’t have is your DLC. Is that funny?








(in reply to Rory Noonan)
Post #: 98
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/8/2018 6:09:15 AM   
Rory Noonan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BDukes

Haha. Bet you lots of old pooners who have questions about Commands source would like to see this as well.Silly. Hope you're butt isn't clenched like a mouth full of sour candy.

THank You!




This is why we can't have nice things.

Better?

_____________________________


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Post #: 99
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/8/2018 6:21:15 AM   
BDukes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: apache85


quote:

ORIGINAL: BDukes

Haha. Bet you lots of old pooners who have questions about Commands source would like to see this as well.Silly. Hope you're butt isn't clenched like a mouth full of sour candy.

THank You!




This is why we can't have nice things.

Better?


No you need to add all of what I wrote. Not doing so frames it to what you’d like it to say.

Can you please stop? I’m one more post from ask matrix to ask you to stop harassing customers. You’ve already lost my business and if it continues they will lose it too.

(in reply to Rory Noonan)
Post #: 100
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/8/2018 7:14:44 AM   
Dimitris

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VFA41_Lion
I know its incredibly complex down under the hood (i've seen some screenshots from emsoy on his database works which probably doesnt come close to scratching the surface). I was just trying to make a point that Command is not a 'mostly' airplane combat game.


Then say exactly that. There's no point in describing combat as "just a couple of dice rolls". I'm sure you understand why that can be annoying to us.

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Post #: 101
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/8/2018 7:34:12 AM   
Dimitris

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BDukes
Mr. Dimitris

If its true we can do all of this already in the game. Why do we need the advanced planner?


This is an example of why:


In various ways, a large part of our customer base is telling us that they want this feature. It may not be important to everyone, but it is to many.

quote:


Very confusing signals coming from all of you. Your posts have a lot of "we're doing this but it's hard" or "may be difficult to use or will require many hours to learn how to use". Do you understand a reader's perspective when they see this coming from the developer?

Actually I think we're pretty consistent. More importantly, we're being brutally honest to our customers: It's a very difficult undertaking, and we have to walk a very fine line between implementing core functionality and cutting out (or pushing back for v2, v3 etc.) requests that may sound nice but would add significantly to complexity and dev time (and UI confusion).

Former DI folks are on record as stating that the development of the mission planner on Tornado (the flight sim) cost them their sanity. Falcon-4's mission planner, combined with a few other things, drove Microprose out of business (Yes, I'm exaggerating/simplifying. Not by much though.). We want to do it better, and to have our mental and financial health intact at the end. It's anything but easy.

quote:


I'm worried this is going to be another screen full of buttons and learning a very complex interface for not much gain.

Maybe, maybe not. Part of the design process is consolidating all the "must haves" into a system as simple as possible (but not simpler, to misquote Einstein), and then trying to also graft additional wishlist items without making it into a steampunk's dream. That means a lot of the nice-to-haves may end up on the cutting room floor, at least initially. C'est la vie.

quote:


I support you guys but this seems almost like somebody's pet project that ran away. You have a few flight sim nerds on board but not sure they know much about how games appeal to normal people. I know I can choose not to buy it but I would really like to.

This is part of why Ragnar is considering the concept of a DLC structure. This would enable folks who do require the new functionality to pay for it, while users who don't care about it don't pay for it and it stays completely out of their UI flow. So far the reception to this concept appears positive.

Thanks.


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Post #: 102
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/8/2018 7:57:21 AM   
BDukes

 

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Thank you for the thoughtful reply Dimitris.



(in reply to Dimitris)
Post #: 103
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/8/2018 7:09:57 PM   
ComDev

 

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Thanks for the clarifications. Comments below.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cik

push
loiter at specific area until package arrives- once package arrives depart as a group towards next steerpoint



Push times should be possible for sure.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cik
split
diverge from package and return to base and/or hit a tanker and/or move to next push point to meet next package



Hehe okay we didn't have to go further than point #2 to interpret it differently

A waypoint 'Split' order in the AMP would - the way I see it - be where the formation splits to carry out separate (multi-axis) target runs.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cik
switch EMCON state
self explanatory

go to tanker (with same settings as normal proceed to tanker order)
should be settable for package, escorts only, strikers only, specific groups etc.


attack TOO (some sort of freeform search and destroy option would be good)
attack while moving from steer to steer, in a specific area, against specific targets with specific weapons ideally etc


change altitude/airspeed




fly angle-off to target(s)
to allow flying notches or beams or for use of specific ISR sensors like SLAR(s) or ELINT sensors.



Hmm I suspect this is something the player would have to set up manually, by creating a flightplan.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cik
jettison weapons/fuel tanks
would be real nice to have when planning strikes where agility will be good to have :^)

BOL (decoys)
would be great so you don't have to micro MALD/ITALD


BOL (attack specific coordinate)
would be nice for attacking known positions, carpeting areas with cluster munitions, or for use with ARM weapons for SAM suppression.



BOL attack will probably not be part of v1.0. Getting the basics up and running, with flightplans and all that, will probably be complex enough.


< Message edited by emsoy -- 2/8/2018 7:10:49 PM >


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Post #: 104
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/8/2018 7:12:04 PM   
ComDev

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BDukes

Ok. Sounds cool but a little hesitant when you say its a lot of work. Do you have picture?




Picture?


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Post #: 105
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/8/2018 7:18:12 PM   
ComDev

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: butch4343


quote:

ORIGINAL: emsoy

Okay how about this...

In order to be releasable within a reasonable time frame, Advanced Mission Planner (aka AMP) v1.0 could include:

Editable flightplans: pre-take-off route planning (move, insert, delete waypoints), waypoint speed/altitude, waypoint doctrine and refueling settings
Configurable Time-On-Target (ToT) or Time-On-Station
Strike packages


The AMP v1.0 will NOT be a hands off 'one click does it all' mission tool. In fact, realistically, such a feature will probably never materialize. Simply too much work.

And it will not have detailed weapon allocation and cruise missile planning. That alone could add years to the development schedule.

It will also be a paid add-on. Given the massive time and effort that would go into this, it might in fact be a premium price product.



So it would basically give you this:

Will that work for everyone?

Thanks










Emsoy,


This looks fantastic in terms of additional features for the advanced strike planner, could I ask as a scenario designer, that this be used with the scenario editior?




Yes, of course!

The AMP should allow you to make perfectly timed air strikes to really knock human players off their feet hehe.


quote:

ORIGINAL: butch4343

For me the strike planner is about creating a scenario where I can have my flight of Fencers/ Eagles/ Badgers Ect, fly a profile of my choosing, Ie to waypoint 1 fly at 25000ft at cruise, Waypoint 2 drop to 250 feet at afterburner.

If you give me that, it means I can choose very specific profiles, because with the best will in the world you guys cant create profiles (Hi-Lo-Hi, Lo-Lo-Lo) for every eventuality.

Its important for scenario designers to manually set strike mission parameters for the AI to execute.

Yours Respectfully

Butch




I would expect nothing less of the AMP, even in version 1.0

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Post #: 106
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/8/2018 7:27:05 PM   
VFA41_Lion


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dimitris

quote:

ORIGINAL: VFA41_Lion
I know its incredibly complex down under the hood (i've seen some screenshots from emsoy on his database works which probably doesnt come close to scratching the surface). I was just trying to make a point that Command is not a 'mostly' airplane combat game.


Then say exactly that. There's no point in describing combat as "just a couple of dice rolls". I'm sure you understand why that can be annoying to us.


Well, okay. It's incredibly complex under the hood between that and what appears to the player. I'm just concerned that adding another layer of micromanagement under what already exists will be too time-consuming and an 'information overload' to actually enjoy the game. But that's just one person's opinion. :v

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Post #: 107
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/8/2018 8:00:09 PM   
Airborne Rifles

 

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emsoy, if an AMP did nothing more than let a player plot waypoints for a mission, set altitude/speed/WRA/EW doctrine per waypoint, and give the player a ToT for the mission based on the player's inputs, that would be amazing. Giving a mission ToT would allow the player to decide on launch times from various mission from different airfields to achieve the effects they want. Count me in as willing to pay for this, and thanks for listening. You guys are awesome.

(in reply to VFA41_Lion)
Post #: 108
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/8/2018 8:29:35 PM   
ComDev

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Airborne Rifles

emsoy, if an AMP did nothing more than let a player plot waypoints for a mission, set altitude/speed/WRA/EW doctrine per waypoint, and give the player a ToT for the mission based on the player's inputs, that would be amazing. Giving a mission ToT would allow the player to decide on launch times from various mission from different airfields to achieve the effects they want. Count me in as willing to pay for this, and thanks for listening. You guys are awesome.


Thanks, noted

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Post #: 109
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/8/2018 8:47:58 PM   
ComDev

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VFA41_Lion


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dimitris

quote:

ORIGINAL: VFA41_Lion
I know its incredibly complex down under the hood (i've seen some screenshots from emsoy on his database works which probably doesnt come close to scratching the surface). I was just trying to make a point that Command is not a 'mostly' airplane combat game.


Then say exactly that. There's no point in describing combat as "just a couple of dice rolls". I'm sure you understand why that can be annoying to us.


Well, okay. It's incredibly complex under the hood between that and what appears to the player. I'm just concerned that adding another layer of micromanagement under what already exists will be too time-consuming and an 'information overload' to actually enjoy the game. But that's just one person's opinion. :v



Okay.

But no AMP has been released yet, so this is just speculation.

As pointed out earlier, we will likely retain all current functionality. I.e. that the player assigns platforms to missions, presses play, and the AI go to work.

Those who decide to upgrade to AMP will also be given the ability to edit flightplans before take-off, and also set take-off times and time-on-target. This would be doable on a per-mission or even per-flight basis, by either overriding or adjusting the automatic mission generation functions.

As such, the added micro-management is for increased control, if/when/where needed. It's not an either/or thingie.

But then again, if you don't need this, simply don't upgrade

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Post #: 110
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/8/2018 10:54:49 PM   
BDukes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: emsoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: BDukes

Ok. Sounds cool but a little hesitant when you say its a lot of work. Do you have picture?




Picture?



Yes a screenshot would be great and probably clear up the big UI questions.

This should only cost you a couple of mouse clicks (hopefully).

Thank you Mr. Ragnar.

(in reply to ComDev)
Post #: 111
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/9/2018 3:48:56 AM   
ComDev

 

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Okay I'll post screenshots a little further down the road

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RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/9/2018 12:57:03 PM   
DrRansom

 

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A strike planner drove Tornado developers insane and contributed to Micropose going out of business? Ouch! No wonder you're so cautious about it.

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Post #: 113
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/9/2018 1:23:53 PM   
ComDev

 

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Info here:
http://www.moodurian.com/tornado/tor/MissionPlanner.html

Apparently, the amazing wizard who wrote the code for DI's Tornado left for a better paid job elsewhere. They were never able to replace him, and follow-up titles like F/A-18 and Hind used a stripped down variant of the Tornado engine.

I played Tornado a lot and loved the detail of the flight planner. And for 25 years I have wanted an even better one. I hope we will be able to make one for Command, but it will take time and cost a lot.

< Message edited by emsoy -- 2/9/2018 1:24:35 PM >


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RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/9/2018 1:47:40 PM   
DrRansom

 

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I can image that the guy who wrote the strike planner would get poached, I wouldn't be half surprised if he got hired by the RAF to build a real strike planner.

Given what CMANO has so far, I think if anyone is going to beat it it'll be you guys.

I heard somewhere that the mission planner, which minimized radar signature over the flight path, for the F-117 was almost as critical to the programs success as the stealth itself.

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Post #: 115
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/9/2018 4:21:58 PM   
BDukes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: emsoy

Okay I'll post screenshots a little further down the road


Thank you for your sincerity Mr. Ragnar. Look forward to it.

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Post #: 116
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/9/2018 4:26:10 PM   
BDukes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DrRansom

I can image that the guy who wrote the strike planner would get poached, I wouldn't be half surprised if he got hired by the RAF to build a real strike planner.

Given what CMANO has so far, I think if anyone is going to beat it it'll be you guys.

I heard somewhere that the mission planner, which minimized radar signature over the flight path, for the F-117 was almost as critical to the programs success as the stealth itself.



Yes if it look as good as Tornado UI screens we're fine. Its its some big screen full of button's and drop down menu's we are not fine.Support will be messy. Player->There is bug Ragnar->Please send me click through of 5 million options you may have chosen with save game. Into support vortex we go!

I do wish them luck with this challenge and look forward to seeing this. I believe in them. Probably shouldn't talk so much so early though.

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Post #: 117
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/9/2018 8:47:01 PM   
gbaby


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I've had this game and all it's expansions/DLCs for some time, but got excited way back on the first hint of an AMP was mentioned. Just never seemed to happen.

I don't think I have posted on this forum ever, though I have been monitoring it for years, catching news of things like the up and coming sub DLC, which gets me ready for purchasing.

But I can't keep quiet about the AMP being discussed. I will gladly pay whatever for AMP to CMANO. If it just allows me to edit waypoints for a planned mission, I'm sold.


(in reply to BDukes)
Post #: 118
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/9/2018 11:03:15 PM   
Rory Noonan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BDukes

Yes if it look as good as Tornado UI screens we're fine. Its its some big screen full of button's and drop down menu's we are not fine.Support will be messy. Player->There is bug Ragnar->Please send me click through of 5 million options you may have chosen with save game. Into support vortex we go!

I do wish them luck with this challenge and look forward to seeing this. I believe in them. Probably shouldn't talk so much so early though.


This is why save files are important for bug reports, it saves the developers a lot of time and they can always ask follow-up questions if required.

If you look at the tech support threads, the ones that provide a save are solved very quickly and usually without any need for follow-up questioning, but the threads where the player doesn't provide a save take a lot of back and forth.

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RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/10/2018 1:19:50 AM   
BDukes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: apache85


quote:

ORIGINAL: BDukes

Yes if it look as good as Tornado UI screens we're fine. Its its some big screen full of button's and drop down menu's we are not fine.Support will be messy. Player->There is bug Ragnar->Please send me click through of 5 million options you may have chosen with save game. Into support vortex we go!

I do wish them luck with this challenge and look forward to seeing this. I believe in them. Probably shouldn't talk so much so early though.


This is why save files are important for bug reports, it saves the developers a lot of time and they can always ask follow-up questions if required.

If you look at the tech support threads, the ones that provide a save are solved very quickly and usually without any need for follow-up questioning, but the threads where the player doesn't provide a save take a lot of back and forth.


Yes I said with save file. If you look at support threads you also see lots of posts about WRA/WCS interfaces, Mission options etc where the user is asked what they clicked and they have no idea. Save files capture everything but when inheritance is broken they may not show the story. I've been here for some time.

Anyways thinking and hoping for the best for flight planner. I will not buy your product at all. You are awful and just trolling users. If Warfaresims didn't want it talked about good or bad they would not have posted.

Thank You.

(in reply to Rory Noonan)
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