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RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/4/2018 8:52:29 AM   
nukkxx5058


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenix100

It was a serious question for the devs. I bought this game on day 1, and have since bought everything for it, expansions and LIVE modules, without, actually, being able as yet to really get into playing it, though I keep trying, keep coming back to it, keep watching the various videos, keep learning a little here and there. And I do realise how great it is.


I'm in exactly the same situation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenix100
My slowness to get to grips with it is partly because I've wanted to do less - lazy me - in terms of the micro-management. So ever since the Advanced Strike Planner has been mentioned I've thought it would make a huge difference. To my interest, at any rate. I realise it's a complicated beast, but I was just wondering if there was any time-frame pencilled in, and whether that could be shared. I ask now, because, like someone else in a post above, each time a new expansion is mentioned I get a bit eager, thinking this will be it, then a bit disappointed it's not. So The Silent Service sounds great, but when I saw there was to be another expansion I was hoping THIS one would be the ASP. I understand the urge to joke about it, but it was a question for the devs, if they are able to share any meaningful info on this function's development?


Yes, a planner would be great to reduce micro management.

There are also several UI issues that prevent from enjoying the game as I should.
1) The fact that the message log is not clickable. It's sometime a real pain to see to what item the message is intended. "Where the heck is SKUNK #137 ?!"
2) The non-fluid zoom system with a one-second delay.

In my opinion, instead of working on new features, new theaters, new DLC, etc, the devs should focus in priority on making the UI more pleasant by fixing these three severe issues (1-planner, 2-message log, 3-Zooming/scrolling).
MHO ...

< Message edited by nukkxx -- 2/4/2018 9:00:47 AM >

(in reply to Phoenix100)
Post #: 61
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/4/2018 9:30:27 AM   
ComDev

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenix100

Well, it turned into a great discussion, after the laughs. Thanks for taking it seriously, Emsoy. I would only like to stress - of all these excellent suggestions and analysis, and being both a novice here and an idiot - the point made by Gunner98 in his great summary - point 7b there - 'show the player graphically what it would look like'. When I imagine the ASP I always think of being able to point and click on the map and get representations of routes and targets and moveable adjustable rally points, waypoints etc (as well as everything else people have suggested above). ie; I would hope it would be mainly graphic rather than 'spreadsheet-like', though there will have to be other components, obviously.

But, could I just ask again the original question - IS there any sort of time-frame pencilled in for this work? Just wondering. I was assuming it would be DLC and would happily pay for it, of course, as would everyone here, I assume. It would be a very significant development and priced accordingly, no doubt.


Time-frame... I guess the answer lies in how much functionality goes into v1.0. I.e. how much 'stuff' is needed to have a product that you as a player would actually find useful, that you would actually want to pay for, and that the programmers would receive a fair salary for. This project is so big that man-hours and cost become a very real issue.

Hence my request for a 'minimum' Advanced Mission Planner v1.0 feature list, above.

As could be expected, once the discussion got going, all sorts of edge cases started appearing and we need to make the difficult decisions on what to cover and what to save for later or even not support at all. Plus there's the issue that doubling complexity will result in a tenfold increase in time and cost. So where do we draw the line? This is where everyone's input is much appreciated.

Thanks

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Post #: 62
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/4/2018 9:40:57 AM   
ComDev

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx

Yes, a planner would be great to reduce micro management.



Hmmm and there's another one of my worries...

An Advanced Mission Planner (aka AMP ?) could even INCREASE the amount of work needed to get a strike underway, simply because there are more decisions to make along the way. Or?

Those of us who played DI's Tornado probably remember what it took to set up a strike right hehe.


quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx
There are also several UI issues that prevent from enjoying the game as I should.
1) The fact that the message log is not clickable. It's sometime a real pain to see to what item the message is intended. "Where the heck is SKUNK #137 ?!"
2) The non-fluid zoom system with a one-second delay.

In my opinion, instead of working on new features, new theaters, new DLC, etc, the devs should focus in priority on making the UI more pleasant by fixing these three severe issues (1-planner, 2-message log, 3-Zooming/scrolling).
MHO ...


Noted!

Thanks


< Message edited by emsoy -- 2/4/2018 9:42:03 AM >


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Post #: 63
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/4/2018 1:55:50 PM   
Gunner98

 

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quote:

I'm still struggling a bit on target priorities, and how it will work 'in the wild', both UI-wise and AI-wise... What if you don't have enough fuel to bring the ordnance back home if no targets are found. Jettison, or plan for it by reducing max strike radius? Etc etc. How is it done IRL?


I think that target priorities should focus the AMP’s efforts (and the player’s thoughts).

Priority 1 target: If this target is not destroyed the mission is a failure.
• There should only be one Pri-1 target – yes that is something the modern world seems to ignore – if everything is a priority, nothing is. I suppose in reality there could be a small number of Pri-1, such as the three runways on a base or something. But not many.
• The mission planner ensures that there is enough ordinance going to the Pri-1 targets with a good margin of insurance
• This may not be feasible or even desirable: If assets are lost, the AMP can re-task other assets in the same mission with appropriate munitions to strike the Pri-1 target.

Priority 2 targets: There are more of them, they are supporting the Pri-1.
• The mission is still successful if none of these are hit but the Pri-1s are destroyed.
• The mission is a resounding success if all or most of these are destroyed.
• If the Pri-1 targets are not destroyed, destroying a good number of Pri-2 will make the mission a partial success

Priority 3 targets: Targets not key to the mission but worth expending ordinance on.

Probably best to describe with an example which I have attached. These are only my thoughts and some of the options may be beyond the scope of version 1 or any version of an AMP. However it is designed the fundamental elements should be a TOT planner and the ability to adjust the plan easily.

In any case, if this requires an additional player investment – I’m in. My only though as a scenario designer is that DLC options make scenarios a bit trickier to build. CoW for instance requires the designer to build for two different versions of the game, or just one. Building for one either eliminates a certain number of the playing audience, or under values the players who have CoW. An AMP would be a fantastic tool to build an AI opponents missions, however if only some players have an AMP DLC license – would that mean that the AI opponent would have to be built differently for those players? So you would now have 4 versions of the same scenario: 1) Standard no options, 2) CoW only, 3) CoW & AMP, 4) AMP only. That could become unmanageable.

IRL it is more complicated, but essentially commanders make the decisions on priorities, the staff makes all the detailed plans, the 'trigger puller' has the final say on exactly what s/he drops or fires on, the Intelligence guys determine the original target options to give to the commanders and any re-strikes, and the lawyers pick up the pieces.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Gunner98 -- 2/4/2018 1:57:57 PM >

(in reply to ComDev)
Post #: 64
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/4/2018 4:30:51 PM   
ExNusquam

 

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Here’s some input based on what’s been said so far…Gunner has done a great job outlining the requirements. I've attached an academic journal that defines the real strike planning process for reference (although it's obviously vague on specifics).

All strike planning starts with a commander’s desired effects. Targeteering is undertaken to determine what should be hit to achieve the desired effects. An example would be desired effects of degrading ISIS oil revenue, and the targeteering would select striking tanker trucks to achieve this. Both functions should be undertaken by the player. If there are defenses around the target (SAM/CAP), they will be accounted for in the targeteering phase. BOL aimpoints should be selectable in AMP as well to support ToT calculations for decoys and other SEAD strikes.

Weaponeering then allocates weapons to targets to achieve desired effects. This may range from complete destruction to degradation of capability. A GBU-12 will destroy a tanker truck, but 30mm shells will make it equally useless. In this phase I think the AMP should make suggestions based on what targets and loadouts the player has selected for aircraft assigned to the mission, but should always defer to player input. The suggestion should consider weapon Pk/accuracy/failure rate/WRA, which will result in overkill most of the time (which is OK!). In this phase, it should be possible to allocate ToT at the weapon level, but all values should be populated automatically. The reason for weapon specific ToT is primarily SEAD – to keep SAMs suppressed you will want to re-strike ARM BOL points while strikers are within a SAM WEZ.

Weapon jettison should be a doctrine option, like current. If the target is important, the player should be able to risk losing weapons (which may be limited) to kill a target at longer range. Default should be to bring back weapons.

Tanker planning (dynamically determining a refuel point) is probably not necessary…if the strike package doesn’t have the range available to reach the target, a message should be provided telling the player to add tankers. Using the current interface, the player should be able to assign tanker missions to the strike. AMP should provide allocate time based on capacity/required offload/transfer rates. Ideally, AMP will suggest a time for the ARCP that can be passed to the tanker support mission. On station time constraints for patrol/support missions would also be hugely helpful for standoff jamming and TARCAP missions as well.

I suspect the easiest feature to implement would be allowing the player to select time constraints at waypoints. The aircraft would then adjust its speed to meet the time restriction. The time-to-go is already displayed in the Speed and Altitude dialog, so the game is already calculating this in real time. For a strike mission, using the current system where an IP is created for the aircraft, the strike planner should set control times at the IP either simultaneously for stand-off or at 30 second intervals non-stand-off weapons (as this distinction already exists in the mission planner). WRA and target lists already gives a huge amount of flexibility in terms of weapon allocation.


Attachment (1)

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RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/4/2018 5:38:31 PM   
tango4

 

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Regarding what would V2.0 look like according to me, I am pretty sure it goes beyond my capacities specifying that, especially given the quality of posts made here by other members (thinking especially about gunner98 and exNusquam).
The only thing that comes to my mind is about tanker planning. In real life it seems to be a huge work when talking massive operations. I remember reading an article in aviation week a few months ago about tanker planning at Al Udeid in Qatar. There was a visit of the command center by silicon valley entrepreneurs who were astonished to see that tanker planning was still done "manually" ! Apparently they started developing an app after that visit to help in this huge task.
That is just to say that dynamic tanker planning (if we are talking massive scenario like desert storm) is probably beyond the reach of cmano.
But getting some help in tanker planning would be great nevertheless.

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Post #: 66
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/4/2018 5:58:15 PM   
Airborne Rifles

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: emsoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Airborne Rifles


quote:

ORIGINAL: emsoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Airborne Rifles

Well, if the player decides to plot their own waypoints, then the achievement of a ToT is completely on them and their own planning, as it should be. The suggestion I'm making is about weapons for which the AI already automatically plots an off-axis attack without player input other than to assign the salvo to a target.


Hmm but then the missiles have two possible routes, one going left and one going right? Wouldn't me much spacing between weapons other than that?


Basically the idea would be that the initial off-axis leg of the AI-plotted attack would be slightly shorter for each successive missile fired from a single unit. So a weapon travelling at 500 kts might travel 10 miles in one direction before turning onto its attack vector. the next weapon, launched say ten seconds later, would travel ten seconds' worth of distance less along the off-axis leg, and the next weapon another ten seconds less etc.. The key is for each weapon to travel the same distance to the point where it's terminal guidance kicks in minus the amount of distance traveled by the first weapon prior to the successive weapons' launches. A player can already do this manually by making sure that the (player-plotted) pre-planned off-axis attacks all travel approximately the same distance during their entire flights. Of course, maneuvers by the target throw off the ToT calculations, but hey, that's war . A variation of just a few seconds can mean the difference between overwhelming a modern ship's point defenses or not.


Yeah that might work, thanks!

Do you know how its done in RL?

And how accurate must the ToT be? Like, will we have to take the time spent turning on each waypoint (which can add quite a few seconds to the flight time!) into account, or can we live with weapons arriving 10-20 sec early/late?



Emsoy, sorry for the delay in responding. I'm a land combat guy so I can't speak intelligently on how the Navy/Air Force achieve ToT. Calling for artillery support we let the arty folks (looking at you, Gunner ) figure out the math on how to make rounds from six different guns strike the same place at the same time. ToT can be devestating with artillery since casualties are easiest to cause before people start taking cover.

Having said that, I can't imagine that ToT isn't a consideration when planning attacks by modern missiles that can follow pre-plotted courses to the target. Just not sure what the mechanism is for achieving it.

I figure with an AI plotted ToT missile attack, each missile would only have one waypoint (as they currently do when executing an off-axis attack) so time turning wouldn't really factor in.

(in reply to ComDev)
Post #: 67
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/5/2018 4:10:29 AM   
ComDev

 

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Joined: 5/12/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

quote:

I'm still struggling a bit on target priorities, and how it will work 'in the wild', both UI-wise and AI-wise... What if you don't have enough fuel to bring the ordnance back home if no targets are found. Jettison, or plan for it by reducing max strike radius? Etc etc. How is it done IRL?


I think that target priorities should focus the AMP’s efforts (and the player’s thoughts).

Priority 1 target: If this target is not destroyed the mission is a failure.
• There should only be one Pri-1 target – yes that is something the modern world seems to ignore – if everything is a priority, nothing is. I suppose in reality there could be a small number of Pri-1, such as the three runways on a base or something. But not many.
• The mission planner ensures that there is enough ordinance going to the Pri-1 targets with a good margin of insurance
• This may not be feasible or even desirable: If assets are lost, the AMP can re-task other assets in the same mission with appropriate munitions to strike the Pri-1 target.

Priority 2 targets: There are more of them, they are supporting the Pri-1.
• The mission is still successful if none of these are hit but the Pri-1s are destroyed.
• The mission is a resounding success if all or most of these are destroyed.
• If the Pri-1 targets are not destroyed, destroying a good number of Pri-2 will make the mission a partial success

Priority 3 targets: Targets not key to the mission but worth expending ordinance on.

Probably best to describe with an example which I have attached. These are only my thoughts and some of the options may be beyond the scope of version 1 or any version of an AMP. However it is designed the fundamental elements should be a TOT planner and the ability to adjust the plan easily.

In any case, if this requires an additional player investment – I’m in. My only though as a scenario designer is that DLC options make scenarios a bit trickier to build. CoW for instance requires the designer to build for two different versions of the game, or just one. Building for one either eliminates a certain number of the playing audience, or under values the players who have CoW. An AMP would be a fantastic tool to build an AI opponents missions, however if only some players have an AMP DLC license – would that mean that the AI opponent would have to be built differently for those players? So you would now have 4 versions of the same scenario: 1) Standard no options, 2) CoW only, 3) CoW & AMP, 4) AMP only. That could become unmanageable.

IRL it is more complicated, but essentially commanders make the decisions on priorities, the staff makes all the detailed plans, the 'trigger puller' has the final say on exactly what s/he drops or fires on, the Intelligence guys determine the original target options to give to the commanders and any re-strikes, and the lawyers pick up the pieces.


Woah, veeery nice, thanks!

Document saved to the 'Mission Planner - Design' folder

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(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 68
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/5/2018 4:14:35 AM   
ComDev

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExNusquam

Here’s some input based on what’s been said so far…Gunner has done a great job outlining the requirements. I've attached an academic journal that defines the real strike planning process for reference (although it's obviously vague on specifics).

All strike planning starts with a commander’s desired effects. Targeteering is undertaken to determine what should be hit to achieve the desired effects. An example would be desired effects of degrading ISIS oil revenue, and the targeteering would select striking tanker trucks to achieve this. Both functions should be undertaken by the player. If there are defenses around the target (SAM/CAP), they will be accounted for in the targeteering phase. BOL aimpoints should be selectable in AMP as well to support ToT calculations for decoys and other SEAD strikes.

Weaponeering then allocates weapons to targets to achieve desired effects. This may range from complete destruction to degradation of capability. A GBU-12 will destroy a tanker truck, but 30mm shells will make it equally useless. In this phase I think the AMP should make suggestions based on what targets and loadouts the player has selected for aircraft assigned to the mission, but should always defer to player input. The suggestion should consider weapon Pk/accuracy/failure rate/WRA, which will result in overkill most of the time (which is OK!). In this phase, it should be possible to allocate ToT at the weapon level, but all values should be populated automatically. The reason for weapon specific ToT is primarily SEAD – to keep SAMs suppressed you will want to re-strike ARM BOL points while strikers are within a SAM WEZ.

Weapon jettison should be a doctrine option, like current. If the target is important, the player should be able to risk losing weapons (which may be limited) to kill a target at longer range. Default should be to bring back weapons.

Tanker planning (dynamically determining a refuel point) is probably not necessary…if the strike package doesn’t have the range available to reach the target, a message should be provided telling the player to add tankers. Using the current interface, the player should be able to assign tanker missions to the strike. AMP should provide allocate time based on capacity/required offload/transfer rates. Ideally, AMP will suggest a time for the ARCP that can be passed to the tanker support mission. On station time constraints for patrol/support missions would also be hugely helpful for standoff jamming and TARCAP missions as well.

I suspect the easiest feature to implement would be allowing the player to select time constraints at waypoints. The aircraft would then adjust its speed to meet the time restriction. The time-to-go is already displayed in the Speed and Altitude dialog, so the game is already calculating this in real time. For a strike mission, using the current system where an IP is created for the aircraft, the strike planner should set control times at the IP either simultaneously for stand-off or at 30 second intervals non-stand-off weapons (as this distinction already exists in the mission planner). WRA and target lists already gives a huge amount of flexibility in terms of weapon allocation.



Thanks! Also added to the 'Design' folder.

Only problem is that this will take years upon years to implement in full.

We need to divide into into chewable pieces...

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Post #: 69
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/5/2018 4:34:06 AM   
ComDev

 

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Okay how about this...

In order to be releasable within a reasonable time frame, Advanced Mission Planner (aka AMP) v1.0 could include:

Editable flightplans: pre-take-off route planning (move, insert, delete waypoints), waypoint speed/altitude, waypoint doctrine and refueling settings
Configurable Time-On-Target (ToT) or Time-On-Station
Strike packages


The AMP v1.0 will NOT be a hands off 'one click does it all' mission tool. In fact, realistically, such a feature will probably never materialize. Simply too much work.

And it will not have detailed weapon allocation and cruise missile planning. That alone could add years to the development schedule.

It will also be a paid add-on. Given the massive time and effort that would go into this, it might in fact be a premium price product.



So it would basically give you this:

Will that work for everyone?

Thanks








Attachment (1)

< Message edited by emsoy -- 2/5/2018 5:48:25 AM >


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RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/5/2018 5:01:46 AM   
Raptorx7_slith

 

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Has any work been done on it yet or this still in the planning phase?

Just want to know so I can contribute to this usefully.

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RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/5/2018 6:42:59 AM   
Phoenix100

 

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Looks nice. But no tanker support (were it a longer mission, I mean)? Organising the tankers is one of the hardest things to juggle, I think. It would be a significant addition to have some kind of tanker options, no?

+1 on the question above - is this really just starting to be planned now? I thought it had been under construction for quite a while. My mistake.

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RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/5/2018 10:51:37 AM   
Cik

 

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need steerpoint functions for tankers probably in addition to that. otherwise looks pretty good.

as long as we have TOS/TOT behaviors that allow certain flights to check if other flights are nearby. the whole thing sort of falls apart if any sort of from the flight plan throws off the whole operation.

< Message edited by Cik -- 2/5/2018 11:02:58 AM >

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RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/5/2018 2:02:43 PM   
stilesw


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quote:

Okay how about this...

In order to be releasable within a reasonable time frame, Advanced Mission Planner (aka AMP) v1.0 could include:

Editable flightplans: pre-take-off route planning (move, insert, delete waypoints), waypoint speed/altitude, waypoint doctrine and refueling settings
Configurable Time-On-Target (ToT) or Time-On-Station
Strike packages

The AMP v1.0 will NOT be a hands off 'one click does it all' mission tool. In fact, realistically, such a feature will probably never materialize. Simply too much work.

And it will not have detailed weapon allocation and cruise missile planning. That alone could add years to the development schedule.

It will also be a paid add-on. Given the massive time and effort that would go into this, it might in fact be a premium price product.

So it would basically give you this:

Will that work for everyone?

Thanks


Emsoy (Rag, If I may),

For what it's worth, I completely support this concept. It will be invaluable for those who wish a deeply immersive experience with Command - especially those who love hands on, detailed war planning.

Others could be put off somewhat by its complexity just as CMANO is not for everyone. I think the AMP package would be perfect as a premium addition to the overall simulation. Of course, there will be a few that will feel slighted in having to purchase it - but no one has to. Personally, I'll get it and learn.

Once again, many thanks for the CMANO developers who obviously love the whole simulation!

-Wayne Stiles

< Message edited by emsoy -- 2/5/2018 2:11:21 PM >

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RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/5/2018 4:11:49 PM   
JPFisher55

 

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That looks great Emsoy.

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RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/5/2018 5:34:20 PM   
hellfish6


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That ASP mockup Emsoy posted looks great... without having followed the conversation closely, I can immediately understand what I'm looking at.

For supporting functions such as jammers, AEW/mission control or fighters, would it be possible to define areas/plop reference points from within the ASP? Kinda like the mission planner itself, but for planning multiple missions. Maybe tie them to the strike package waypoints as triggers (activate jamming at WP E, cease jamming at WP J) or activate/deactivate CAP missions with the wapoints too, so you're covering the ingresses and egresses, but only when you need to. Maybe a mission control type of support mission too, for AEW (if commo was modelled, these guys would also be controlling the fight) or, for something like a naval strike, this mission could be the guy with the big surface search radar who vectors in everyone else.

****ty mockup onto your diagram:





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RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/5/2018 6:09:35 PM   
ComDev

 

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YES!

Very nice, this is exactly what an Advanced Mission Planner should do.

However it should probably be noted that setting up all the waypoints, timings, EMCON, etc, would require a bit of work for the player

If AMP v1.0 has this exact functionality, nothing more and nothing less, all would be good?



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Post #: 77
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/5/2018 6:21:16 PM   
DrRansom

 

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emsoy - that sounds very good. The addition of support missions is, I think, very important as they allow you to create a self-contained strike package.

I have a couple of questions:
1. Would you allow in a strike package multiple land strikes? E.g. Operation Angry Hot Dog has Tornados going for the base and Jaguars going for the trucks?

2. If calculating ToT is hard, can you at least show on the map aircraft arrival times, perhaps as a text pop-up next to each waypoint. That way the player can very quickly tune flight paths to coordinate arrivals.

3. Could you include a form-up / push-point marker, to help coordinate the arrival of different aircraft from different bases? To add to that, it might be helpful to stagger aircraft launch if certain planes need to travel long distances to reach the mission area. The push-point should be easy, the staggared take-off too hard.

Apart from those questions, it looks really solid and definitely worth a paid expansion.

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Post #: 78
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/5/2018 6:34:51 PM   
hellfish6


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quote:

ORIGINAL: emsoy

However it should probably be noted that setting up all the waypoints, timings, EMCON, etc, would require a bit of work for the player


I'm not worried about that... to me, that's part of the game. If this was a strategic level game, I'd balk at that level of detail. Likewise, my favorite flight sim/game of all time (the Strike Fighter series) does this work for me, but lets me edit the positions of waypoints, so at the operational level this involvement makes sense. It's scale appropriate - the staff of a task force or CJTF HQ would be expected to do this kind of planning.

Most of what I want out of AMP is something that helps me organize strikes. Right now when I try TOT things, it's usually me ordering groups of aircraft to positions outside of a SAM ring then trying to select them all, ordering them into the target area, and trying to micromanage them in near real-time, which is an enormous pain for even lightly defended targets.

If I can open up the ASP, assign my aircraft and tweak my loadouts nd waypoints and in two hours see that all assigned aircraft are 'Ready' status so that I only need to click "Execute," I will be more than satisfied. I can still micromanage if need be, or intervene for surprises, but without having to worry that I need to be micromanaging and tweaking every single flight.

quote:

If AMP v1.0 has this exact functionality, nothing more and nothing less, all would be good?


Aye. Definitely 1st day buy.

Any additional functionality or detail or fixes can be worked on later down the road, once we have some lessons learned from this initial version.



_____________________________


(in reply to ComDev)
Post #: 79
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/5/2018 6:35:02 PM   
ComDev

 

Posts: 5735
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline
1. Yes, that sounds reasonable.

2. Good point, will add to my list. This would be similar to the datablock info on units, yes?

3. How about you set the ToT, and all the other times are calculated automatically, including take-off? And if you need push points with hold times, just enter the desired hold time for the waypoint, and the take-off time is adjusted accordingly?

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(in reply to DrRansom)
Post #: 80
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/5/2018 6:35:41 PM   
Cik

 

Posts: 668
Joined: 10/5/2016
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if it includes waypoint-specific actions for the mission planning i think it'll work. that means something like:

push
split
switch EMCON state
go to tanker (with same settings as normal proceed to tanker order)
attack TOO (some sort of freeform search and destroy option would be good)
change altitude/airspeed
fly angle-off to target(s)
jettison weapons/fuel tanks
BOL (decoys)
BOL (attack specific coordinate)

the TOT/WTOT function and the ahead-of-time steerpointing and the per-steerpoint actions are the biggest priorities for me i think.


keep in mind emsoy i don't think there is any real reason that the AMP should replace totally what the game already has. even if it were implemented tomorrow i wouldn't feel the need to use it for every single mission. relatively often the "fly straight line to target, drop, RTB" is good enough.

that isn't to say that the AMP wouldn't be revolutionary of course, just saying that you don't have to nuke what you've got and start from square one.

< Message edited by Cik -- 2/5/2018 6:38:49 PM >

(in reply to ComDev)
Post #: 81
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/5/2018 6:39:39 PM   
BDukes

 

Posts: 1403
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline
quote:

The AMP v1.0 will NOT be a hands off 'one click does it all' mission tool. In fact, realistically, such a feature will probably never materialize. Simply too much work.

And it will not have detailed weapon allocation and cruise missile planning. That alone could add years to the development schedule.

It will also be a paid add-on. Given the massive time and effort that would go into this, it might in fact be a premium price product.


quote:

YES!

Very nice, this is exactly what an Advanced Mission Planner should do.

However it should probably be noted that setting up all the waypoints, timings, EMCON, etc, would require a bit of work for the player

If AMP v1.0 has this exact functionality, nothing more and nothing less, all would be good?



Ok. Sounds cool but a little hesitant when you say its a lot of work. Do you have picture?








(in reply to DrRansom)
Post #: 82
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/5/2018 6:47:11 PM   
DrRansom

 

Posts: 167
Joined: 7/14/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: emsoy

1. Yes, that sounds reasonable.

2. Good point, will add to my list. This would be similar to the datablock info on units, yes?

3. How about you set the ToT, and all the other times are calculated automatically, including take-off? And if you need push points with hold times, just enter the desired hold time for the waypoint, and the take-off time is adjusted accordingly?


1. Yeah, I always envisioned the strike package as allowing for multiple land strikes within it, then coordinating those strikes. For the developer's sanity, there is a good argument for a limit, e.g. all strikes must target units within X miles of a common center.

2. Yes, exactly.

3. Perfect, couldn't ask for anything better on this point, really.

(in reply to ComDev)
Post #: 83
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/5/2018 6:52:40 PM   
tango4

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 6/19/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: emsoy


If AMP v1.0 has this exact functionality, nothing more and nothing less, all would be good?



Absolutely awesome !

Charles

(in reply to ComDev)
Post #: 84
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/5/2018 8:31:12 PM   
ComDev

 

Posts: 5735
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cik

if it includes waypoint-specific actions for the mission planning i think it'll work. that means something like:

push
split
switch EMCON state
go to tanker (with same settings as normal proceed to tanker order)
attack TOO (some sort of freeform search and destroy option would be good)
change altitude/airspeed
fly angle-off to target(s)
jettison weapons/fuel tanks
BOL (decoys)
BOL (attack specific coordinate)

the TOT/WTOT function and the ahead-of-time steerpointing and the per-steerpoint actions are the biggest priorities for me i think.


Thanks again for everyone's input. This is great

Cik, Im a bit curious what you envision each of the items in the above list to be like in terms of functionality in-game.

To be honest I do not think detailed weapon allocation, cruise missile flightplans, decoys, or lat/lon targets (coordinates) will be included in v1.0. Its simply too much work that could add a year or more to the development schedule. Sorry!


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cik

keep in mind emsoy i don't think there is any real reason that the AMP should replace totally what the game already has. even if it were implemented tomorrow i wouldn't feel the need to use it for every single mission. relatively often the "fly straight line to target, drop, RTB" is good enough.

that isn't to say that the AMP wouldn't be revolutionary of course, just saying that you don't have to nuke what you've got and start from square one.


Yeah the AMP will build on top of whats already there. The first version of the flightplan generator was created for v1.07 and has been systematically improved since. It works really well and is used for all AI-generated flightplans, and has support for off-angle attacks and navigation around No-Nav Zones.

http://www.warfaresims.com/?p=3653

The flightplan generator has even been using different types of waypoints for several years, and you can already set speed/altitude, EMCON, doctrine etc for them after the aircraft have taken off. Because of this, the AMP would probably even be backwards compatible with older scenarios and strike flightplans.

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(in reply to Cik)
Post #: 85
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/5/2018 9:39:19 PM   
Cik

 

Posts: 668
Joined: 10/5/2016
Status: offline

push
loiter at specific area until package arrives- once package arrives depart as a group towards next steerpoint


split
diverge from package and return to base and/or hit a tanker and/or move to next push point to meet next package

switch EMCON state
self explanatory

go to tanker (with same settings as normal proceed to tanker order)
should be settable for package, escorts only, strikers only, specific groups etc.


attack TOO (some sort of freeform search and destroy option would be good)
attack while moving from steer to steer, in a specific area, against specific targets with specific weapons ideally etc


change altitude/airspeed




fly angle-off to target(s)
to allow flying notches or beams or for use of specific ISR sensors like SLAR(s) or ELINT sensors.


jettison weapons/fuel tanks
would be real nice to have when planning strikes where agility will be good to have :^)

BOL (decoys)
would be great so you don't have to micro MALD/ITALD


BOL (attack specific coordinate)
would be nice for attacking known positions, carpeting areas with cluster munitions, or for use with ARM weapons for SAM suppression.


(in reply to ComDev)
Post #: 86
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/6/2018 5:03:24 AM   
VFA41_Lion


Posts: 228
Joined: 1/30/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: emsoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cik

if it includes waypoint-specific actions for the mission planning i think it'll work. that means something like:

push
split
switch EMCON state
go to tanker (with same settings as normal proceed to tanker order)
attack TOO (some sort of freeform search and destroy option would be good)
change altitude/airspeed
fly angle-off to target(s)
jettison weapons/fuel tanks
BOL (decoys)
BOL (attack specific coordinate)

the TOT/WTOT function and the ahead-of-time steerpointing and the per-steerpoint actions are the biggest priorities for me i think.


Thanks again for everyone's input. This is great

Cik, Im a bit curious what you envision each of the items in the above list to be like in terms of functionality in-game.

To be honest I do not think detailed weapon allocation, cruise missile flightplans, decoys, or lat/lon targets (coordinates) will be included in v1.0. Its simply too much work that could add a year or more to the development schedule. Sorry!


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cik

keep in mind emsoy i don't think there is any real reason that the AMP should replace totally what the game already has. even if it were implemented tomorrow i wouldn't feel the need to use it for every single mission. relatively often the "fly straight line to target, drop, RTB" is good enough.

that isn't to say that the AMP wouldn't be revolutionary of course, just saying that you don't have to nuke what you've got and start from square one.


Yeah the AMP will build on top of whats already there. The first version of the flightplan generator was created for v1.07 and has been systematically improved since. It works really well and is used for all AI-generated flightplans, and has support for off-angle attacks and navigation around No-Nav Zones.

http://www.warfaresims.com/?p=3653

The flightplan generator has even been using different types of waypoints for several years, and you can already set speed/altitude, EMCON, doctrine etc for them after the aircraft have taken off. Because of this, the AMP would probably even be backwards compatible with older scenarios and strike flightplans.


IMO individual pilot actions shouldnt really be a concern - command is a strategic level sim, rather than a study flight sim of a single aircraft ;)

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Post #: 87
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/6/2018 5:13:59 PM   
Cik

 

Posts: 668
Joined: 10/5/2016
Status: offline
i don't understand your opinion because 90% of the game is individual pilot actions. this isn't really an operational game (though it can approach it i guess) you command planes, not squadrons. ships, not fleets.

it's like saying to me "why bother modeling altitude/heading etc, this isn't a single-plane sim"

it's pretty important to be able to tell your airplanes to do things that airplanes do when they are engaged in combat in a game about airplane combat (among other things)

(in reply to VFA41_Lion)
Post #: 88
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/6/2018 8:13:32 PM   
VFA41_Lion


Posts: 228
Joined: 1/30/2014
Status: offline
It's about micromanagement. This is entirely an operational game - I can order entire squadrons to bomb certain areas, tell a whole carrier strike group where to sail and who to bomb, tell another surface action group where to go, who to shoot, what not to shoot at, transport passengers and cargo, fire nukes, deploy EMPs in the upper atmosphere - I'm legitimately confused why you think this is a game solely about airplane combat.

Until recently, you couldn't tell your pilots when to drop chaff. We still can't make them drop flares. We can't individually control their actions when they're defending against threats. Its all agility and probability to hit and decoy spoofing modifiers and ultimately comes down to a bunch of dice rolls. Saying 90% of the game is individual pilot actions is a little much.

< Message edited by VFA41_Lion -- 2/6/2018 8:14:20 PM >


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(in reply to Cik)
Post #: 89
RE: Advanced Strike Planner - 2/6/2018 9:20:00 PM   
Raptorx7_slith

 

Posts: 380
Joined: 7/27/2013
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: VFA41_Lion

It's about micromanagement. This is entirely an operational game - I can order entire squadrons to bomb certain areas, tell a whole carrier strike group where to sail and who to bomb, tell another surface action group where to go, who to shoot, what not to shoot at, transport passengers and cargo, fire nukes, deploy EMPs in the upper atmosphere - I'm legitimately confused why you think this is a game solely about airplane combat.

Until recently, you couldn't tell your pilots when to drop chaff. We still can't make them drop flares. We can't individually control their actions when they're defending against threats. Its all agility and probability to hit and decoy spoofing modifiers and ultimately comes down to a bunch of dice rolls. Saying 90% of the game is individual pilot actions is a little much.


Chaff/flare for fighters going defensive has always been automatic. The "chaff" option you are talking about is for laying chaff curtains from bombers in the early 60's/70's.

(in reply to VFA41_Lion)
Post #: 90
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