Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome)

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> After Action Reports >> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) Page: <<   < prev  7 8 9 10 [11]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/1/2018 6:49:21 AM   
tyronec


Posts: 1916
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline
quote:

M60 is at the critical junction now

Looks to me like the junction has been passed and the Soviets are on the wrong track. Too many losses too early, Axis will be able to march forwards and take a mass of terrain in '41.
Congratulations on your (pending) victory.

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 301
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/1/2018 9:07:32 AM   
beender


Posts: 183
Joined: 2/23/2017
From: Beijing, China
Status: offline

quote:



The new supply rules are pretty rough.


By "new supply rules"do you mean the railway supply modifier or something (don't remember the name)? I used to play under 1.08 or so. You would say life for German players is a bit harder now I guess?

By the way I've been reading the manual and all the patchnotes and believe me, a lack of updated manual really really frustrates new people!

< Message edited by beender -- 3/1/2018 9:08:38 AM >

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 302
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/1/2018 9:59:01 AM   
aldiladeisogni1

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 3/31/2017
Status: offline
In my opinion , he does not surrender up until he loses Leningrad and Mosca

(in reply to tyronec)
Post #: 303
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/1/2018 10:25:05 AM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 1974
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline
If I was the Soviet Armaments minister I would be in the process of converting all remaining factories to the production of white flags :)

Wish you could tempt Michael T out of retirement. King Kong vs Godzilla :)

(in reply to aldiladeisogni1)
Post #: 304
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/1/2018 1:42:58 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 2392
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

M60 is at the critical junction now

Looks to me like the junction has been passed and the Soviets are on the wrong track. Too many losses too early, Axis will be able to march forwards and take a mass of terrain in '41.
Congratulations on your (pending) victory.


Pending no more. I've resigned and decided to step away from all but the one 8MP game.

I won't get into a long discussion, I'll just say I'm rather put out by the current version of WiTE. If it has been imbalanced in the past in one direction, it certainly is the other way now with no prospect for change. You and HardLuck would certainly make an entertaining matchup, and I would bet heavily on whichever one took the Axis side.

(in reply to tyronec)
Post #: 305
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/1/2018 2:02:55 PM   
SparkleyTits

 

Posts: 836
Joined: 10/7/2016
From: England
Status: offline
Well done both of you

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 306
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/1/2018 2:07:13 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 3095
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS


quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

M60 is at the critical junction now

Looks to me like the junction has been passed and the Soviets are on the wrong track. Too many losses too early, Axis will be able to march forwards and take a mass of terrain in '41.
Congratulations on your (pending) victory.


Pending no more. I've resigned and decided to step away from all but the one 8MP game.

I won't get into a long discussion, I'll just say I'm rather put out by the current version of WiTE. If it has been imbalanced in the past in one direction, it certainly is the other way now with no prospect for change. You and HardLuck would certainly make an entertaining matchup, and I would bet heavily on whichever one took the Axis side.


This was and is my Last game of WITE 1.0 as Germany. I will finish out my game with Dinglir playing the Soviets but that is it for me for WITE 1.0. I sincerely thank you M60 for the game that we had & wish you the best in your future games. Thank you Sir

_____________________________

Space we can recover; time never

Napoleon

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 307
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/1/2018 2:13:57 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 3095
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
Left blank page

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 3/1/2018 9:46:51 PM >


_____________________________

Space we can recover; time never

Napoleon

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 308
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/1/2018 5:03:22 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 1778
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

Pending no more. I've resigned and decided to step away from all but the one 8MP game.

I won't get into a long discussion, I'll just say I'm rather put out by the current version of WiTE. If it has been imbalanced in the past in one direction, it certainly is the other way now with no prospect for change. You and HardLuck would certainly make an entertaining matchup, and I would bet heavily on whichever one took the Axis side.


I am not quick enough to play a huge number of games under each version, but have exp. with three games with 1.10.00 and one with 1.11.01 (some as Axis, some as Soviets), and I disagree with that. As I see it: 1.11.00 was completely pro Axis.

1.11.01 has increased the AP cost so much that you will not be able to do even one every turn and the rail modifier has been reduced. This combined makes runaway strategies with stiff defense at key points very powerful.
You fought too far forward with too little in the center during the early turns, same at Pskov, and this caused a snowball effect. IMO you would have done much better by not defending there at all, using the troops to prepare a line further back.

Thanks to both of you for the AARs, great read!
Of course HLYA is excellent at exploiting the game engine and made you pay for even tiny mistakes.

Note I am not saying that I would have been able to win this game, But would like to point out certain mistakes the game could have been much different hadn't they been there.






< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 3/1/2018 6:13:03 PM >

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 309
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/1/2018 10:10:34 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 3095
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

quote:

Pending no more. I've resigned and decided to step away from all but the one 8MP game.

I won't get into a long discussion, I'll just say I'm rather put out by the current version of WiTE. If it has been imbalanced in the past in one direction, it certainly is the other way now with no prospect for change. You and HardLuck would certainly make an entertaining matchup, and I would bet heavily on whichever one took the Axis side.


I am not quick enough to play a huge number of games under each version, but have exp. with three games with 1.10.00 and one with 1.11.01 (some as Axis, some as Soviets), and I disagree with that. As I see it: 1.11.00 was completely pro Axis.

1.11.01 has increased the AP cost so much that you will not be able to do even one every turn and the rail modifier has been reduced. This combined makes runaway strategies with stiff defense at key points very powerful.
You fought too far forward with too little in the center during the early turns, same at Pskov, and this caused a snowball effect. IMO you would have done much better by not defending there at all, using the troops to prepare a line further back.

Thanks to both of you for the AARs, great read!
Of course HLYA is excellent at exploiting the game engine and made you pay for even tiny mistakes.

Note I am not saying that I would have been able to win this game, But would like to point out certain mistakes the game could have been much different hadn't they been there.







This is correct on the current patch. The HQ buildup of just 4 armor units will be over or close to 50 AP points. If you sub out two of the armor and put in moto units you can get in the high 30's to low 40's depending on support units. Doing a HQ buildup with just Moto units seems to be the most cost-effective but I was only dabbling in this after the last patch. But I can say 100% the new patch has really hit the Germans hard. Only from experience was I able to do what I was able to do. Most of the time I was fighting to have 30ish MP's.

_____________________________

Space we can recover; time never

Napoleon

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 310
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/1/2018 10:30:07 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 3095
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
My advice to people that read this is;

1. Just as much as attacking is an artform so too is the defense. I implore you to not get stuck on the linear defense North to South in single line. Experiment with different defenses. BY ALL MEANS, LEARN WHERE RETREATS WILL GO TO. I can't stress that enough and I have mentioned it on more than one occasion.
2. In defense, what I mentioned in my last AAR(defense of the Soviet union begins one hex west of Pskov) playing the Soviets, you have to be set up a turn or two in advance in anticipation of where the Germans could be going. You have to get inside the German head if you will. You don't want to find yourself reacting to the German moves and being fatigued, without forts, with your azz hanging out.
3. Playing Germany is all above doing the most with the least. Plan out your attacks. I still do Recon, take a snapshot of that recon then print it out and plan out my attacks with Germany. Yes it is tedious but it has worked for me very very very well. Germany Recon is so good you will rarely miss a unit. In the beginning of the game the Soviets can only have so much defense in a hex. (yes there is a number you can go by as a rule of thumb) Thus if you have the required str you can pretty much make retreat anything in your way when attacking. What really hurts this is the next number.
4. Use your aircraft as Soviets for defense. Yes you are going to lose a TON of them. But it causes good casualties, changes the odds greatly making combat guessing for the Germans.
5. As a Soviet player Recon. If you don't know where the Germans are how can you defend against it? What good is it to save recon planes for later when they should be used now? Granted the Soviet recon is as bad as groping in the dark with your hands..... But you never know when you grab the naked ladies chest ;-) (or a guys chest if you are a lady)
6. Prepare your advance as Germany of where you are going and if hitting a snag where you are going to. Don't needlessly bumble in the night without direction. Because you only have a small window of opportunity and if you don't make it through that window you will hit the wall.
7. Set up reserve activation for both sides on this. I do with the Germans.

The list can go on and on but these are some of the key issues.

****This isn't directed at anyone & only posted here to give newer players ideas to think about on both sides. By all means I'm not a great player since there are many on this forum that have been and are better than I. I only try and help those that wish to take what little knowledge I have

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 3/1/2018 10:35:14 PM >


_____________________________

Space we can recover; time never

Napoleon

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 311
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/1/2018 11:21:40 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 1778
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

But I can say 100% the new patch has really hit the Germans hard. Only from experience was I able to do what I was able to do. Most of the time I was fighting to have 30ish MP's.

Interesting you got close to 30 at all. I haven't followed the AAR as closely as I should have but it looks like you operated at quite some distancce from the railheads.

Re your points:
1. Doing that is possible but absolutely brain exhausting. Maybe it becomes intuitive once you have done that 10000 times but I right now can't convince myself to do this unless I have the feeling that the next turn in an area will be a game changer I must win. Ideally you would do many iterations of the defense setup in your head and simulate the possible attack paths, but the memory in my brain definitely isn't sufficient for that.
4. That is interesting. If you have any more to post on that matter I would be interested.
7. You say you do this with the Axis too, you are talking about attacking in 1941 I believe. Which advantages do you aim for with that tactic?
(have some ideas but would like to hear your reasoning)


(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 312
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/2/2018 6:45:05 AM   
SparkleyTits

 

Posts: 836
Joined: 10/7/2016
From: England
Status: offline
The cost of HQBU does get lower as the turns go on and TOE's get lower I find around turn 10 onwards I can reliably get around 3 HQBU every 2 turns but would likely be dependant on how hard people push their panzer arms

1. The bane of my existence is when Soviet players play against my MP with rivers, ZOC, hedgehog in their defence instead of playing against my CV it always means gains are going to be more limited in aim in the short term and means I have to plan both my moves and Soviet moves ahead of time to get my aims by gauging my opponents reaction and planning for it instead of simply being able to punch through a line and pocket the good stuff and keep moving forward.
I feel when used it is another possible mechanic that can help the attrtional steamroll this games flow has as the effect becomes cumulative for both sides in opposite spectrums as the turns go on and I feel is one of the biggest differences in setting up a Soviet for a strong winter/42 and onwards

2. I do feel like 1 bulwark of strength works well for Soviet atleast again myself when I either mess up/go to slow on piercing lines and level 2 forts start to pop up or if level 2 forts are planned ahead of time as HLYA said

3. Do not do this I just calculate possible avenues of attacks for each thrust, possible gains and all the other things that entails for an hour or two depending on complexity of attack but if it is a simple affair I just go for it after 10 minutes of thinking which is probably dumb

4. I find if a Soviet uses mainly I series with the odd modern fighters only when needed and high pool LB at first and saves most of their modern fighters for when exp/morale is up the game seems to turn into a turtling affair where you cannot knock out the Soviet airforce quickly enough for it to be dulled but as Axis you place far enough back with staging bases that your fighters cannot be sufficiently hit then it becomes a stalemate or a fight over ground support but I am still grasping the more complex mechanics of the air war so I am very sure there are better ways to deal with it

5. I love it when Soviets don't recon means they generally save for a 42 that is less likely to happen and effectively hands an Axis player full reign with initiative which is a killer

6. Same as before if this demands thought I will replan and rethink for as much time is needed but otherwise will just plod along within 10 minutes if I see a quick and easy new options. Again probably dumb

7. Do not do this much in 41 unless a panzer is in need of extra CV but do not want to put another division ontop of stack (It uses less resources if you reserve though I believe so could have some very nice uses in that regard?)

< Message edited by SparkleyTits -- 3/2/2018 7:07:52 AM >

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 313
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/2/2018 12:36:51 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 3094
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
7. You say you do this with the Axis too, you are talking about attacking in 1941 I believe. Which advantages do you aim for with that tactic?
(have some ideas but would like to hear your reasoning)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
7. Set up reserve activation for both sides on this. I do with the Germans.


I use reserve activation a lot and from conversations with others I seem to be unusual in this. It is worth reading the algorithm for this. A unit with three movement points left is unlikely to get any activations (or indeed it may be impossible at all). One full of movement points or fuel can get lots. So again it is better to set up the unit for an activation in advance and if on the defence let the enemy come to you - especially in winter. It also means those minor allied cavalry units, whose 20+MPs are lost paying 4 MPs or more to enter an enemy hex in offence, can be quite useful in defence.

Used in offence reserve activation is even rarer - which really means it needs to be prepared for a turn in advance. But in my opinion should be used in all those critical points like crossing the Neva or breaking into Sevastopol. Crossing the Neva should not be done with 6 infantry divisions only, typically I get two more to reserve activate.

The great thing about reserve activations, a bit like air power, is it self selects to when you most need them. They will not commit to hopeless battles or ones you are bound to win any way. So just as a die roll can increase the variation on a battle result, reserve activation can decrease it. And in defence, just as an opponent can select the hex they will attack you on, the reserve activation can selectively defend that hex. It allows units to defend an area and not just one hex leaving their neighbours vulnerable.

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 314
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/2/2018 4:47:47 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 3095
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

quote:

But I can say 100% the new patch has really hit the Germans hard. Only from experience was I able to do what I was able to do. Most of the time I was fighting to have 30ish MP's.

Interesting you got close to 30 at all. I haven't followed the AAR as closely as I should have but it looks like you operated at quite some distancce from the railheads.

Re your points:
1. Doing that is possible but absolutely brain exhausting. Maybe it becomes intuitive once you have done that 10000 times but I right now can't convince myself to do this unless I have the feeling that the next turn in an area will be a game changer I must win. Ideally you would do many iterations of the defense setup in your head and simulate the possible attack paths, but the memory in my brain definitely isn't sufficient for that.
4. That is interesting. If you have any more to post on that matter I would be interested.
7. You say you do this with the Axis too, you are talking about attacking in 1941 I believe. Which advantages do you aim for with that tactic?
(have some ideas but would like to hear your reasoning)




Units that were 25-30 hexes from rail normally had 2-6 MP's the next turn. I had to let them sit 3 turns to build up fuel. I alternated my strikes so one front would get hit, North was my first strike that was hard. Then I would strike in the Center the next turn. Then in the south I pushed with one PZ corps the next turn. Then the turn after I hit with the other PZ corps in the South to Kharkov. So I would come back to the North and I had a PZ Corps at Velikie Luki ready to strike towards Moscow. That way the Soviets are always reacting & by that time the Infantry has caught up. If that makes sense.



< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 3/2/2018 4:49:00 PM >


_____________________________

Space we can recover; time never

Napoleon

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 315
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/2/2018 4:55:23 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 3095
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist
7. You say you do this with the Axis too, you are talking about attacking in 1941 I believe. Which advantages do you aim for with that tactic?
(have some ideas but would like to hear your reasoning)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
7. Set up reserve activation for both sides on this. I do with the Germans.


I use reserve activation a lot and from conversations with others I seem to be unusual in this. It is worth reading the algorithm for this. A unit with three movement points left is unlikely to get any activations (or indeed it may be impossible at all). One full of movement points or fuel can get lots. So again it is better to set up the unit for an activation in advance and if on the defence let the enemy come to you - especially in winter. It also means those minor allied cavalry units, whose 20+MPs are lost paying 4 MPs or more to enter an enemy hex in offence, can be quite useful in defence.

Used in offence reserve activation is even rarer - which really means it needs to be prepared for a turn in advance. But in my opinion should be used in all those critical points like crossing the Neva or breaking into Sevastopol. Crossing the Neva should not be done with 6 infantry divisions only, typically I get two more to reserve activate.

The great thing about reserve activations, a bit like air power, is it self selects to when you most need them. They will not commit to hopeless battles or ones you are bound to win any way. So just as a die roll can increase the variation on a battle result, reserve activation can decrease it. And in defence, just as an opponent can select the hex they will attack you on, the reserve activation can selectively defend that hex. It allows units to defend an area and not just one hex leaving their neighbours vulnerable.



MP's is the main contributor to reserve activation. I have noticed, and it is not in the rules as a requirement, that lower the fatigue the greater the chance of reserve activation. Does fatigue count or not? According to the rules no, but it seems to me it does so my rule is 1/2 MP left and fatigue under ~20-25 to have a good chance of reserve activation. That is just my rule & my experience over the years with it. But in the winter with the Germans good luck with any type of Reserve Activation. The best chance you have with Germany of reserve activation is to put a broken down German PZ division(broken into 3 regiments) in a City with an excellent leader above 7 and all up the chain of command with best numbers possible.





_____________________________

Space we can recover; time never

Napoleon

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 316
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/2/2018 5:02:18 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 3095
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

The cost of HQBU does get lower as the turns go on and TOE's get lower I find around turn 10 onwards I can reliably get around 3 HQBU every 2 turns but would likely be dependant on how hard people push their panzer arms

1. The bane of my existence is when Soviet players play against my MP with rivers, ZOC, hedgehog in their defence instead of playing against my CV it always means gains are going to be more limited in aim in the short term and means I have to plan both my moves and Soviet moves ahead of time to get my aims by gauging my opponents reaction and planning for it instead of simply being able to punch through a line and pocket the good stuff and keep moving forward.
I feel when used it is another possible mechanic that can help the attrtional steamroll this games flow has as the effect becomes cumulative for both sides in opposite spectrums as the turns go on and I feel is one of the biggest differences in setting up a Soviet for a strong winter/42 and onwards

2. I do feel like 1 bulwark of strength works well for Soviet atleast again myself when I either mess up/go to slow on piercing lines and level 2 forts start to pop up or if level 2 forts are planned ahead of time as HLYA said

3. Do not do this I just calculate possible avenues of attacks for each thrust, possible gains and all the other things that entails for an hour or two depending on complexity of attack but if it is a simple affair I just go for it after 10 minutes of thinking which is probably dumb

4. I find if a Soviet uses mainly I series with the odd modern fighters only when needed and high pool LB at first and saves most of their modern fighters for when exp/morale is up the game seems to turn into a turtling affair where you cannot knock out the Soviet airforce quickly enough for it to be dulled but as Axis you place far enough back with staging bases that your fighters cannot be sufficiently hit then it becomes a stalemate or a fight over ground support but I am still grasping the more complex mechanics of the air war so I am very sure there are better ways to deal with it

5. I love it when Soviets don't recon means they generally save for a 42 that is less likely to happen and effectively hands an Axis player full reign with initiative which is a killer

6. Same as before if this demands thought I will replan and rethink for as much time is needed but otherwise will just plod along within 10 minutes if I see a quick and easy new options. Again probably dumb

7. Do not do this much in 41 unless a panzer is in need of extra CV but do not want to put another division ontop of stack (It uses less resources if you reserve though I believe so could have some very nice uses in that regard?)



Ya, HQ BU is insanely expensive. But I still think the biggest problem for the Soviets is the "constant" experience hit on units as they go through the different upgrade periods of their units. I mean come on I have 3 soviet armor brigades and they upgrade to a corps in April in my game. They are 50 Morale and 50+ experience across the board. They form the Armor Corps and WHAM!!!!!!! they are now 33 experience and 40 Morale. Like WTF over????. So it is in the early game with the Soviet Divisions having horrid experience and morale and it take almost to the end of the Blizzard for the unit to be 45 exp and 45 Morale. Were the Soviets really this DAMN bad and stupid as they went through upgrades and TOE changes?

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 3/2/2018 5:11:46 PM >


_____________________________

Space we can recover; time never

Napoleon

(in reply to SparkleyTits)
Post #: 317
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/2/2018 8:59:37 PM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 8/4/2014
Status: offline
In terms of balance I think that it is an almost impossible task to achieve 'perfect' balance for two main reasons:

1) The differing skill levels of the player base. There will always be the 'elite' players that are able to get far more out of the game engine than the rest. Because of the nature of the game (see point 2 below) these players tend to have their best success playing as the Axis. The problem is that if you balance the game to reign in those players you end up in a situation where the 'average' players start getting bogged down early on as Axis even when playing opponents of an equivalent skill level.

2) The (understandable) design decision to start the main campaign on 22nd June which by necessity means the Axis player having the first turn. In itself this doesn't unbalance the game but for me it makes it really hard to get balanced games. The first few turns are so fluid that the smallest mistakes (or in the case of 'elite' games the smallest advantage in terms of managing the game engine) can end up snowballing and the game ends up as being over before it has really had a chance to get started.

For me, to have a more 'stable' campaign in terms of balance you would need the game to start somewhere around the current T4 (for example how the forces are set out at the beginning of the Smolensk scenario).

Obviously people want to fight the war from its very beginning and I think it is also fair to say that the early turns are the ones where the game is most fluid and exciting and tactical/operational skill and knowledge of the game engine is best rewarded. But in order to enjoy that I think that the players have to accept that the consequence is that the majority of games will be won/lost in the first 6 months and that from that starting point there will always be problems balancing the game for everyone.

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 318
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/3/2018 4:53:51 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 3095
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

In terms of balance I think that it is an almost impossible task to achieve 'perfect' balance for two main reasons:

1) The differing skill levels of the player base. There will always be the 'elite' players that are able to get far more out of the game engine than the rest. Because of the nature of the game (see point 2 below) these players tend to have their best success playing as the Axis. The problem is that if you balance the game to reign in those players you end up in a situation where the 'average' players start getting bogged down early on as Axis even when playing opponents of an equivalent skill level.

2) The (understandable) design decision to start the main campaign on 22nd June which by necessity means the Axis player having the first turn. In itself this doesn't unbalance the game but for me it makes it really hard to get balanced games. The first few turns are so fluid that the smallest mistakes (or in the case of 'elite' games the smallest advantage in terms of managing the game engine) can end up snowballing and the game ends up as being over before it has really had a chance to get started.

For me, to have a more 'stable' campaign in terms of balance you would need the game to start somewhere around the current T4 (for example how the forces are set out at the beginning of the Smolensk scenario).

Obviously people want to fight the war from its very beginning and I think it is also fair to say that the early turns are the ones where the game is most fluid and exciting and tactical/operational skill and knowledge of the game engine is best rewarded. But in order to enjoy that I think that the players have to accept that the consequence is that the majority of games will be won/lost in the first 6 months and that from that starting point there will always be problems balancing the game for everyone.



#1 dictates how the game playes out. If this difference is great you "will not" have a good game imo.

_____________________________

Space we can recover; time never

Napoleon

(in reply to Sammy5IsAlive)
Post #: 319
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/3/2018 5:03:11 PM   
Zecke


Posts: 1462
Joined: 1/15/2005
From: Hitoeton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

In terms of balance I think that it is an almost impossible task to achieve 'perfect' balance for two main reasons:

1) The differing skill levels of the player base. There will always be the 'elite' players that are able to get far more out of the game engine than the rest. Because of the nature of the game (see point 2 below) these players tend to have their best success playing as the Axis. The problem is that if you balance the game to reign in those players you end up in a situation where the 'average' players start getting bogged down early on as Axis even when playing opponents of an equivalent skill level.

2) The (understandable) design decision to start the main campaign on 22nd June which by necessity means the Axis player having the first turn. In itself this doesn't unbalance the game but for me it makes it really hard to get balanced games. The first few turns are so fluid that the smallest mistakes (or in the case of 'elite' games the smallest advantage in terms of managing the game engine) can end up snowballing and the game ends up as being over before it has really had a chance to get started.

For me, to have a more 'stable' campaign in terms of balance you would need the game to start somewhere around the current T4 (for example how the forces are set out at the beginning of the Smolensk scenario).

Obviously people want to fight the war from its very beginning and I think it is also fair to say that the early turns are the ones where the game is most fluid and exciting and tactical/operational skill and knowledge of the game engine is best rewarded. But in order to enjoy that I think that the players have to accept that the consequence is that the majority of games will be won/lost in the first 6 months and that from that starting point there will always be problems balancing the game for everyone.


Where is my record¡ yes turn 16-17 dont remenber exactly DECISIVE GERMAN VICTORY; your right the first turn (conquer Lenningrado turn 17 and forget the game)



_____________________________

Epsilon Eridani



(in reply to Sammy5IsAlive)
Post #: 320
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/13/2018 11:10:17 AM   
beender


Posts: 183
Joined: 2/23/2017
From: Beijing, China
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Rumanian front Air loses so far. Rumanian Tact bombers sux monkey ballz now :(..... Was able to just barely squeeze out over 1k kills on this front :( It is what it is, darn Ghosts in the machine.


I was playing under 1.11.0 and was not very much impressed by this record.

Now that i updated to 1.11.1 beta, i realized what a huge mistake I had made. How on earth could you get above 1000 with those Rumanian light bombers nerfed so much? Their effectiveness was like less than one fourth compared to before. I tried numerous times and could barely get over 700... Not that this is decisive to the outcome of war in anyway, but I'm really really curious...

< Message edited by beender -- 3/13/2018 11:11:29 AM >

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 321
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/13/2018 11:14:31 AM   
Telemecus


Posts: 3094
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: beender


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Rumanian front Air loses so far. Rumanian Tact bombers sux monkey ballz now :(..... Was able to just barely squeeze out over 1k kills on this front :( It is what it is, darn Ghosts in the machine.


I was playing under 1.11.0 and was not very much impressed by this record.

Now that i updated to 1.11.1 beta, i realized what a huge mistake I had made. How on earth could you get above 1000 with those Rumanian light bombers nerfed so much? Their effectiveness was like less than one fourth compared to before. I tried numerous times and could barely get over 700... Not that this is decisive to the outcome of war in anyway, but I'm really really curious...


Cannot comment on your game but frequent mistakes are that people leave Rumanian tac bombers on turn 1 in army recon bases or far to the rear in central Rumania. At the very least do make sure you have air transferred all of them to air combat command airbases, and away from ones hundreds of miles away in Transylvania. And that is air transfer - not moving them overground inside airbases.

For what it is worth in the earlier versions of the game Rumanian tac bombers were practically useless. So they have been bumped in a major and ahistorical way. This only a slight return to what it should be.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 3/13/2018 11:18:24 AM >

(in reply to beender)
Post #: 322
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/13/2018 11:23:51 AM   
beender


Posts: 183
Joined: 2/23/2017
From: Beijing, China
Status: offline
Actually, after several tries I searched the forum and found your very helpful post on how Rumanian bombers should be handled.

And I believe I did not commit those mistakes. All bombers were transferred to airbases under Rm. Air command, before conducting any missions. And the airbases were placed right next to the border, just a few hexes away from Kishinev. After a series of 15 or so bomb runs, the flying miles are out, soviet planes(in that airfield alone) are not.

That's why I feel so curious. It confirms again that this is a game where one can always improve.

PS: I agree Rumanian airforce could not be that powerful. It's just like a high score one wants to beat, or at least get close to. Not that loss of several hundred planes makes any difference to the soviet, or even thousands for that matter

< Message edited by beender -- 3/13/2018 11:26:44 AM >

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 323
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/13/2018 5:43:33 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 3095
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: beender

Not that loss of several hundred planes makes any difference to the soviet, or even thousands for that matter



It does matter ;-). Just might not seem so but it does. What matters most is how the Soviets use their airforce. That is the key imo.

_____________________________

Space we can recover; time never

Napoleon

(in reply to beender)
Post #: 324
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/13/2018 5:45:03 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 3095
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: beender


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Rumanian front Air loses so far. Rumanian Tact bombers sux monkey ballz now :(..... Was able to just barely squeeze out over 1k kills on this front :( It is what it is, darn Ghosts in the machine.


I was playing under 1.11.0 and was not very much impressed by this record.

Now that i updated to 1.11.1 beta, i realized what a huge mistake I had made. How on earth could you get above 1000 with those Rumanian light bombers nerfed so much? Their effectiveness was like less than one fourth compared to before. I tried numerous times and could barely get over 700... Not that this is decisive to the outcome of war in anyway, but I'm really really curious...


I hope you understand the supply situation for the Germans going from 1.11.0 to 1.11.1 in 1941. You could be in for a very rude awakening if you don't during your new PVP game you just took on.

_____________________________

Space we can recover; time never

Napoleon

(in reply to beender)
Post #: 325
RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA ... - 3/13/2018 9:02:31 PM   
beender


Posts: 183
Joined: 2/23/2017
From: Beijing, China
Status: offline
I won't worry too much. Never played a PvP game under the old patch anyway

PS: by the way I think i figured out the reason

< Message edited by beender -- 3/13/2018 9:31:14 PM >

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 326
Page:   <<   < prev  7 8 9 10 [11]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> After Action Reports >> RE: VERNICHTUNGSKRIEG!!!!! (War of Extermination) HLYA (AXIS) vs M60 (Soviet) (M60 welcome) Page: <<   < prev  7 8 9 10 [11]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.172