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Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/27/2018 12:36:33 AM   
TPOO

 

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Attached is the latest update. This will be the last update for awhile. Updates to equipment file so replace in the graphics override directory. Briefing covers update changes. House rules clarified in more detail in the briefing. Thank you.

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/27/2018 4:21:51 AM   
Silvanski


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I don't wanna nitpick but I spotted a few anomalies
Maybe something to look into whenever you plan an update

The Romanian 5th Fighter Group started only with 24 He-112's (no replacements) and converted to the Bf109
There are 3x SdKfz233 and 4x SdKfz251/16 (both 1943 models) in the 1941 starting line-up
The 128mm guns in the German festung units like Danzig appeared in 1944


< Message edited by Silvanski -- 1/27/2018 4:22:31 AM >


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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/27/2018 4:49:02 PM   
TPOO

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

I don't wanna nitpick but I spotted a few anomalies
Maybe something to look into whenever you plan an update

The Romanian 5th Fighter Group started only with 24 He-112's (no replacements) and converted to the Bf109
There are 3x SdKfz233 and 4x SdKfz251/16 (both 1943 models) in the 1941 starting line-up
The 128mm guns in the German festung units like Danzig appeared in 1944


Thank Silvain much appreciated. I keep trying to update the OOB as this kind of info is found. The 5th Fighter also got a few IAR-80 as replacements as well.

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/28/2018 7:11:30 PM   
karonagames


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I am on turn 112 of the previous version, and I have two major issues:

The rate of rail conversion has been noted on many previous threads, but I am unable to undertake Case Blue because supply does not reach beyond Rostov. Two lines leading to Rostov have not converted a single hex in the 12 turns since I used the TO delclaring Case Blue, So 12 turns of Shock have been unused as I simply cannot advance beyond the supply net.

The other occurance since Turn 100 has been the constant flip flop of double turns. Double turns are not fun and should only occur when there is a permanent shift of initiative, not every turn.

It is likely I will have to quit the game, which is obviously a lot of wasted effort.

< Message edited by karonagames -- 1/28/2018 7:36:47 PM >


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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/28/2018 7:21:41 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

It is likely I will have to quit the game, which is obviously a lot of wasted effort.

I'd like to second that emotion. It's so bad ( the supply situation ) that I'm tempted to give RR
engineers to all the engineer units so they can repair rail too. But don't release the changed verson
into the wild. It would unbalance the scenario terribly but it would be more fun for the players.

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/28/2018 7:41:38 PM   
DD696

 

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Do the RR units repair when they are embarked, or do they have to be disembarked in order to repair the rail lines? If they repair only when disembarked, then the player will be losing a repair turn each time they are railroaded to a new location.

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/28/2018 7:45:24 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

Do the RR units repair when they are embarked, or do they have to be disembarked in order to repair the rail lines?

The scenario briefing suggests that they don't need to be disembarked, just near the location for the repair to occur.
I've tried disembarking them and it doesn't seem to make a difference. I realize that the Axis had supply problems but
when the RR engrs don't repair the rail the advance can't advance. I'm wondering if there's not a better way to handle
the repairing of rails.

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/28/2018 8:16:18 PM   
Nicholas Bell

 

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quote:

I'm wondering if there's not a better way to handle
the repairing of rails.


Put control back in the hands of the players. Create a lot of small (but "powerful" in terms of rail repair) user-controlled units which are not rail bound so they can march ahead to repair.

I applaud the designer's attempt to use the autorepair function. Not only does he maintain historical number of rail units,it also makes it easier for player. Elegant in design, apparently not so in execution by the program.

From what I've seen "auto" doesn't mean automatic, as it appears there is only a percentage chance of the automatic repair occurring. Or perhaps certain other "not so obvious" conditions apply for the automatic repair to occur. So although the scenario has 14, 13, 4 or 12 auto repair hexes established in the event engine (depending on the time frame) the player isn't getting all of those. Or maybe none of those in the Karonagames' case, which I'd hazard has something to do with a breakdown in the event chain.

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/28/2018 10:35:38 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

the constant flip flop of double turns.

We are supposed to be able to start scenarios in Hotseat Mode in order to avoid this, but this feature is currently broken

That said, I have created work arounds for this in some other scenarios, so maybe I should do the same for D21.

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/28/2018 10:42:29 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

Put control back in the hands of the players.

The % chance would be the same if you have to make the extra clicks to attempt a rail repair, so changing it to a manual system would make no difference. The player already has as much control with the automatic system as they would with a manual system. The issue isn't with the system used in the scenario, it is with the disastrous collapse of the Axis supply system after the initial phase of the campaign. Case Blue was historically delayed while waiting for the rail heads to catch up to the front. The scenario is designed to reflect this and after the initial phase of Barbarossa, repair ability reflects the Axis inability to maintain three Army Groups.

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/29/2018 8:43:57 AM   
karonagames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

Put control back in the hands of the players.

The % chance would be the same if you have to make the extra clicks to attempt a rail repair, so changing it to a manual system would make no difference. The player already has as much control with the automatic system as they would with a manual system. The issue isn't with the system used in the scenario, it is with the disastrous collapse of the Axis supply system after the initial phase of the campaign. Case Blue was historically delayed while waiting for the rail heads to catch up to the front. The scenario is designed to reflect this and after the initial phase of Barbarossa, repair ability reflects the Axis inability to maintain three Army Groups.

quote:

Case Blue was historically delayed while waiting for the rail heads to catch up to the front. The scenario is designed to reflect this and after the initial phase of Barbarossa, repair ability reflects the Axis inability to maintain three Army Groups.


I have so far waited 7 weeks beyond the historical start date of Case Blue for the rail lines going to Rostov to convert. How long should I expect it to take?

In Directive 41 which has a May 1942 Start date. all the Rail Lines upto the start line are converted. Is this not the correct reflection of the historical situation?

< Message edited by karonagames -- 1/29/2018 8:44:58 AM >


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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/29/2018 12:20:15 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Can you zip a sal file and post it so we can have a look ?

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/29/2018 1:37:21 PM   
TPOO

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: karonagames

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

Put control back in the hands of the players.

The % chance would be the same if you have to make the extra clicks to attempt a rail repair, so changing it to a manual system would make no difference. The player already has as much control with the automatic system as they would with a manual system. The issue isn't with the system used in the scenario, it is with the disastrous collapse of the Axis supply system after the initial phase of the campaign. Case Blue was historically delayed while waiting for the rail heads to catch up to the front. The scenario is designed to reflect this and after the initial phase of Barbarossa, repair ability reflects the Axis inability to maintain three Army Groups.

quote:

Case Blue was historically delayed while waiting for the rail heads to catch up to the front. The scenario is designed to reflect this and after the initial phase of Barbarossa, repair ability reflects the Axis inability to maintain three Army Groups.


I have so far waited 7 weeks beyond the historical start date of Case Blue for the rail lines going to Rostov to convert. How long should I expect it to take?

In Directive 41 which has a May 1942 Start date. all the Rail Lines upto the start line are converted. Is this not the correct reflection of the historical situation?


I am on Turn 110 in my run through test with the scenario and have rail repaired to all areas of the front including through Rostov so this is not a design issue. This scenario has been around for 10 years and this simply has never been a design issue with the scenario.
I do not know what is happening with your issue so we would need a saved file to see what is happening. Thank you.

Also if you look on the AAR thread you will see Jukipo's rail map of progress and on Turn 40 and had rail repaired on three lines to the edge of his fronts.

The main rule of thumb here is the more rail ( all rail) you capture free on turns one, two and three the better the odds of repair are going forward. Use the panzer groups as spearheads to advance through territory and capture all rail and not be bogged down mopping up killing Soviet units.

< Message edited by TPOO -- 1/29/2018 1:53:19 PM >

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/29/2018 4:38:26 PM   
karonagames


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This games is a continuation of the T46 that Larry pulished in his AAR so 70 turns have been played.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/29/2018 6:54:26 PM   
TPOO

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: karonagames

This games is a continuation of the T46 that Larry pulished in his AAR so 70 turns have been played.


Ok
I have reviewed your save file. You are behind in rail conversion in the South mainly because you have captured Murmansk and used a lot of rail repair up in that sector. Had you not done that then those conversion hexes would have been available elsewhere. However, Murmansk is a key acquisition, so there was a trade off. The rail repair units are to spread out. You are trying to convert to many different segments. They should be concentrated on 3 segments, 4 at the most. The Axis where not able to conduct multiple offenses during the summer of 42 so the spearhead should be in less sectors for now.
Other than that you are ahead of historical as you have captured Murmansk and Leningrad and other than Rostov you have all other production centers that the Axis had to this point. The only weak area is your Axis heavy rifle squads are low and should be closer to 40,000 but the Soviets are lower as well. I do not think you need to abandon your game at this point.
I also concentrated the rail units into two spearheads in the south and ran a couple of turns and was gaining two hexes per turn in each spearhead. It will pick up more if I were to bring all the rail repair units down south.
Also to note you are taking over one of Larry's games and he had not repaired rail properly in that AAR, especially in the South. If you see my note above in the other post it is imperative that you capture as much free rail on the first 3 turns as possible. I ran a test with the PO playing the Germans and even Elmer can get a intact rail with in a couple of hexes of Minsk on the first 2 turns. That is one of the keys.

Thank you for playing the game!!

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/29/2018 7:37:34 PM   
karonagames


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Thanks for the evaluation and advice. Baku or Bust! (arriving in 1952!)

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/29/2018 11:04:50 PM   
DanNeely

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TPOO


quote:

ORIGINAL: karonagames

This games is a continuation of the T46 that Larry pulished in his AAR so 70 turns have been played.


Ok
I have reviewed your save file. You are behind in rail conversion in the South mainly because you have captured Murmansk and used a lot of rail repair up in that sector. Had you not done that then those conversion hexes would have been available elsewhere. However, Murmansk is a key acquisition, so there was a trade off. The rail repair units are to spread out. You are trying to convert to many different segments. They should be concentrated on 3 segments, 4 at the most. The Axis where not able to conduct multiple offenses during the summer of 42 so the spearhead should be in less sectors for now.
Other than that you are ahead of historical as you have captured Murmansk and Leningrad and other than Rostov you have all other production centers that the Axis had to this point. The only weak area is your Axis heavy rifle squads are low and should be closer to 40,000 but the Soviets are lower as well. I do not think you need to abandon your game at this point.
I also concentrated the rail units into two spearheads in the south and ran a couple of turns and was gaining two hexes per turn in each spearhead. It will pick up more if I were to bring all the rail repair units down south.
Also to note you are taking over one of Larry's games and he had not repaired rail properly in that AAR, especially in the South. If you see my note above in the other post it is imperative that you capture as much free rail on the first 3 turns as possible. I ran a test with the PO playing the Germans and even Elmer can get a intact rail with in a couple of hexes of Minsk on the first 2 turns. That is one of the keys.

Thank you for playing the game!!


Would parking the Finnish rail repair units in Helsinki keep them from burning so much rail repair quota converting the rail line north from Kandalaksha to Murmansk (the advance south to Louhi would still need repair the other direction to maintain supply)? Or would they still try to repair the nearest hexes unless sent through Lenningrad into Russia proper?




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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/29/2018 11:34:33 PM   
TPOO

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DanNeely


quote:

ORIGINAL: TPOO


quote:

ORIGINAL: karonagames

This games is a continuation of the T46 that Larry pulished in his AAR so 70 turns have been played.


Ok
I have reviewed your save file. You are behind in rail conversion in the South mainly because you have captured Murmansk and used a lot of rail repair up in that sector. Had you not done that then those conversion hexes would have been available elsewhere. However, Murmansk is a key acquisition, so there was a trade off. The rail repair units are to spread out. You are trying to convert to many different segments. They should be concentrated on 3 segments, 4 at the most. The Axis where not able to conduct multiple offenses during the summer of 42 so the spearhead should be in less sectors for now.
Other than that you are ahead of historical as you have captured Murmansk and Leningrad and other than Rostov you have all other production centers that the Axis had to this point. The only weak area is your Axis heavy rifle squads are low and should be closer to 40,000 but the Soviets are lower as well. I do not think you need to abandon your game at this point.
I also concentrated the rail units into two spearheads in the south and ran a couple of turns and was gaining two hexes per turn in each spearhead. It will pick up more if I were to bring all the rail repair units down south.
Also to note you are taking over one of Larry's games and he had not repaired rail properly in that AAR, especially in the South. If you see my note above in the other post it is imperative that you capture as much free rail on the first 3 turns as possible. I ran a test with the PO playing the Germans and even Elmer can get a intact rail with in a couple of hexes of Minsk on the first 2 turns. That is one of the keys.

Thank you for playing the game!!


Would parking the Finnish rail repair units in Helsinki keep them from burning so much rail repair quota converting the rail line north from Kandalaksha to Murmansk (the advance south to Louhi would still need repair the other direction to maintain supply)? Or would they still try to repair the nearest hexes unless sent through Lenningrad into Russia proper?




If parked well away from damaged rail they should not be influencing any repair.

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/30/2018 1:06:58 AM   
DanNeely

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TPOO


quote:

ORIGINAL: DanNeely


quote:

ORIGINAL: TPOO


quote:

ORIGINAL: karonagames

This games is a continuation of the T46 that Larry pulished in his AAR so 70 turns have been played.


Ok
I have reviewed your save file. You are behind in rail conversion in the South mainly because you have captured Murmansk and used a lot of rail repair up in that sector. Had you not done that then those conversion hexes would have been available elsewhere. However, Murmansk is a key acquisition, so there was a trade off. The rail repair units are to spread out. You are trying to convert to many different segments. They should be concentrated on 3 segments, 4 at the most. The Axis where not able to conduct multiple offenses during the summer of 42 so the spearhead should be in less sectors for now.
Other than that you are ahead of historical as you have captured Murmansk and Leningrad and other than Rostov you have all other production centers that the Axis had to this point. The only weak area is your Axis heavy rifle squads are low and should be closer to 40,000 but the Soviets are lower as well. I do not think you need to abandon your game at this point.
I also concentrated the rail units into two spearheads in the south and ran a couple of turns and was gaining two hexes per turn in each spearhead. It will pick up more if I were to bring all the rail repair units down south.
Also to note you are taking over one of Larry's games and he had not repaired rail properly in that AAR, especially in the South. If you see my note above in the other post it is imperative that you capture as much free rail on the first 3 turns as possible. I ran a test with the PO playing the Germans and even Elmer can get a intact rail with in a couple of hexes of Minsk on the first 2 turns. That is one of the keys.

Thank you for playing the game!!


Would parking the Finnish rail repair units in Helsinki keep them from burning so much rail repair quota converting the rail line north from Kandalaksha to Murmansk (the advance south to Louhi would still need repair the other direction to maintain supply)? Or would they still try to repair the nearest hexes unless sent through Lenningrad into Russia proper?




If parked well away from damaged rail they should not be influencing any repair.


That's not as bad as I feared then, but still has the feeling of a noob trap.

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/30/2018 7:31:02 AM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

ORIGINAL: karonagames
This games is a continuation of the T46 that Larry pulished in his AAR so 70 turns have been played.

But you were complaining about lack of repairs in a game that you were up to turn 112. Why would you give us this one instead of the one that you complained about ?

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/30/2018 10:25:36 AM   
DanNeely

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

ORIGINAL: karonagames
This games is a continuation of the T46 that Larry pulished in his AAR so 70 turns have been played.

But you were complaining about lack of repairs in a game that you were up to turn 112. Why would you give us this one instead of the one that you complained about ?


He did. The save shared was from T115; so 3 more turns of minimal progress between the initial complaint and the save posting.

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/30/2018 3:44:06 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Ah, I misunderstood, I thought he was giving us a different game from a turn 70 !

Ok then, lets take a look at the file - below is the mini-map with each of the square black boxes centered on a Bautroop unit. Each represents a single unit. In no location is there more than one Bautroop. Can anybody see the issue that is the cause of the lack of rail repairs in this situation ?




Attachment (1)

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/30/2018 3:49:06 PM   
larryfulkerson

 

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quote:

Can anybody see the issue that is the cause of the lack of rail repairs in this situation ?

I'm guessing that it takes more than a single RR engr unit to repair rail. So that it might make sense to have
just three routes with up to four RR engr units in each group.

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/30/2018 3:52:32 PM   
sPzAbt653


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WINNER !!

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 1/30/2018 3:58:36 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Trying to be like Hitler and doing everything at once sometimes doesn't work out too well
Focusing Bautroops in ONE AREA will greatly increase the chance that repairs will be made in that area. Spreading them all over means that you will have a very small chance of repairs all over.

Thanks for posting the save file karonagames. By way of compensation for your efforts I will give you some advice that you might want to try out. Keep your Axis units intact and defend every other hex [don't split them up in order to arrange a continuous front line]. Its a bit scary, so maybe try it in a quite first and see what you think.

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 2/7/2018 10:47:50 AM   
Teemu1986

 

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Hi, what happens if I disband units which will be later withdrawed? Do I get an unfair advantage? Or will the equipment of withdrawn units be added to the replacement pool?

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 2/7/2018 11:18:02 AM   
sPzAbt653


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It depends on the specific unit.

Some units are designed to be disbanded so that their equipment does show up in the replacement pool. Also, when some units are 'withdrawn' they are actually disbanded by the game engine.

Units that are disbanded and that are set to reconstitute will have their equipment deposited into the Replacement Pool, but then they will draw on that same equipment in order to reconstitute. [In this case it doesn't make much sense to disband such units].

Units that are disbanded and that are set to NOT reconstitute will have their equipment deposited into the Replacement Pool, and that equipment is then available for other units to draw on. [In this case it may make sense to disband such units. For example, it your Rumanian units are low on replacements, disbanding a few of their units will add to their replacements. Minors don't reconstitute, right ?].

Oh, and yes, if you are generally disbanding units that withdraw, you are considered to be a dick

< Message edited by sPzAbt653 -- 2/7/2018 11:21:02 AM >

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 2/7/2018 11:23:26 AM   
Teemu1986

 

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In this scenario units withdraw by events. For example, I lose the 7th Flieger division in Dec 1941. So what happens if I disband such a parachute regiment beforehand?

EDIT: Heh, so I get that you are not supposed to disband any units that withdraw?

< Message edited by Teemu1986 -- 2/7/2018 11:24:47 AM >

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 2/7/2018 2:26:12 PM   
Teemu1986

 

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Does anybody else think the 2% winter pestilence for the Axis is a little high? Here is data about Wehrmacht casualties on the Ostfront in 1941-1942. 195k men lost in Aug 41, 87k in Jan 41.

https://www.dokst.de/main/sites/default/files/dateien/texte/Overmans.pdf

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RE: Directive 21 1941-1945 V4.45 - 2/7/2018 4:04:21 PM   
TPOO

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Teemu1986

Does anybody else think the 2% winter pestilence for the Axis is a little high? Here is data about Wehrmacht casualties on the Ostfront in 1941-1942. 195k men lost in Aug 41, 87k in Jan 41.

https://www.dokst.de/main/sites/default/files/dateien/texte/Overmans.pdf

Casualties figures are lower in those months because most of the front became more static/defensive after initial Soviet offensive. However, it has been lowered to 1 for when the next version is uploaded. Thank you.

(in reply to Teemu1986)
Post #: 30
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