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How does the A.I works and is it any good ?

 
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How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 1/26/2018 3:01:34 PM   
KarlXIIc

 

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I am new to the Ageod engine. As I understand it the underlying engine has been used for several different historical strategy games. What is the strengths of the A.I ? Can someone comment how it works and if there are any improvements made in this incarnation ?
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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 1/26/2018 3:33:11 PM   
Searry

 

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You should really only play against other players in PBEM. The AI is for practising a new game.

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 1/26/2018 3:48:35 PM   
KarlXIIc

 

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That sounds very discouraging. I always play as a single player. Games with very good A.I is for example Decisive Campaigns: From Warszaw to Paris and you don´t need to play against a human. Is the A.I really that bad ?

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 1/26/2018 3:55:52 PM   
rwenstrup

 

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I own all of the AGEOD games and love them all. I play both against the AI and PBEM. There is no problem with the AI ... and learning about the historical settings they cover is a lot of fun...

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 1/26/2018 4:07:32 PM   
jack54


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I have many Ageod games and play only against the AI. I have fun. Once you get used to it you'll probably win but it can still be enjoyable.

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 1/26/2018 4:15:19 PM   
rudisa

 

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I own a whole bunch of AGEOD games and I only play single player. I enjoy these games immensely. The AI seems to make perfect sense to me, in most cases, and is still able to defeat me.

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 1/26/2018 4:19:06 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: saintus

I am new to the Ageod engine. As I understand it the underlying engine has been used for several different historical strategy games. What is the strengths of the A.I ? Can someone comment how it works and if there are any improvements made in this incarnation ?


The AI is fine. Pocus has suggested that they use early feedback to see if it can be tweaked etc.

You might find this post useful:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4080974

Its for Wars of Napoleon but the focus is on how to use the various set up settings to get a good AI game.

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 1/26/2018 5:55:17 PM   
mkeogh76

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: saintus

I am new to the Ageod engine. As I understand it the underlying engine has been used for several different historical strategy games. What is the strengths of the A.I ? Can someone comment how it works and if there are any improvements made in this incarnation ?



If you don't have unrealistic expectations then Ageod's AI is ok as PC strategy gaming AIs go. Further, you can boost-up the single-player difficulty through the options menu which offers both AI boosts (cheats) and ways for the player to handicap himself such as ramping-up the attrition and activation levels.

However, Ageod's AI often fairs best in smaller to mid-sized scenarios. Where it struggles, though, are the monster campaign scenarios which are often an Ageod's game biggest selling point. Those monster scenarios require long-term planning as to recruitment, army composition, and overall strategy and Ageod's AI does not do long term planning. Like almost all strategy gaming AIs, it has no ability to plan ahead. So, the longer and bigger the scenario the more "cracks" appear in the AI. It just seems to get overwhelmed by the massive amount of options available.

It does well at creating powerful stacks and often hitting you where you're weakest. Also, it can drive you up a wall by spreading penny-packet armies all over the map which it often uses to lay siege to your towns.

Still, it can be frustrating and immersion breaking especially in those monster scenarios. It repeatedly does head-scratching stuff that reminds one that you're taking on a PC program with very limited strategic capabilities.

< Message edited by mkeogh76 -- 1/27/2018 2:29:10 AM >

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 1/27/2018 1:41:14 AM   
Rosseau

 

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Best thread I've ever read on Ageod AI. I also play against the AI only.

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 1/27/2018 12:12:28 PM   
Searry

 

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I'm interested in playing against the AI but how do you prevent it from sending very small stacks without leaders trying to siege everything at once and then getting defeated in detail. Not occypying important objectives with enough Combat Power or such? Any special settings I should use?

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 1/27/2018 4:30:10 PM   
loki100


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see the linked thread above - it goes over the set up options and how they affect the AI.

Oddly don't make it too aggressive and make sure it has only a small advantage in terms of visibility. Both will go a long way to stopping it self-suiciding in small raids etc

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 1/27/2018 5:41:10 PM   
Matto


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I'm playing AGEOD games mostly against AI ... there is possibility to choice "give AI more" time and some small advantages and then is AI good and challenging. Don't worry about AI competence ... it is good

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 1/27/2018 5:54:51 PM   
marek1978

 

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What would be a way to stop AI from lossing its whole army in winter mots and lack of suppy?

Should i make it that it does noth have historical attrition?
Should i make it less agresive and have smaller visibility andvantege as Loki said?

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 1/27/2018 6:05:20 PM   
Searry

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

see the linked thread above - it goes over the set up options and how they affect the AI.

Oddly don't make it too aggressive and make sure it has only a small advantage in terms of visibility. Both will go a long way to stopping it self-suiciding in small raids etc

Your settings didn't help after I tried 10 turns. Maybe I will try low aggressiveness to really make the AI sit tight and save it's men.

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 1/27/2018 7:32:21 PM   
Capitaine

 

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I might try something novel an try playing an AGEOD game solo as a two person hotseat (or equivalent). Lose a lot of FOW, but might be able to glean a lot more of the gameplay than I have to date.

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 1/27/2018 7:44:06 PM   
comte


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I have found the A.I. to be quite competent when tweaked properly with the settings as posted above. Currently playing Alea Jacta Est Parthian war and the A.I. managed to surround and destroy my main column (Trajan's 3 legions) while it was advancing deeper into Parthian territory. A.I. also managed to recapture some of it's cities I had taken from them. I left the cities with good garrisons after my main forces moved forward quite surprising for me. I have gotten used to horrible A.I. so I find Athena quite refreshing.

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 1/27/2018 11:22:29 PM   
Rosseau

 

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Go to WSS/Settings and backup GameLogic.opt. Then take a look with Notepad++. I always make a number of changes in this file to fit my playing style. A lot you can do in there - for single player only of course. Same for all Ageod games.

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 1/27/2018 11:22:50 PM   
gamer78

 

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Later scenarios -1706,1709- will be more challenge for Bourbon side and can be good for versus AI play and can be perfect for more experienced player in pbem.

< Message edited by gamer78 -- 1/27/2018 11:24:27 PM >

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 2/1/2018 7:13:28 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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Play Pike n Shot instead or Field of Glory II; you'll enjoy the ai play much better than ageod games.

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 2/1/2018 8:15:18 AM   
Alan Sharif

 

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I must confess, I have always found the AI a challenge, so do not have an issue myself.

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 2/1/2018 1:31:02 PM   
Phoenix100

 

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I wonder if it's true - as someone above said - that it does no long-term planning? I hope that's fake news. For instance, raising recruits is essential in the longer games and I cannot think they've actually designed an AI that doesn't do this. The games wouldn't get anywhere near the lengths advertised if this was so, no?

I am very new to the games and have never played above around twenty turns so far. I haven't noticed any glaring AI weaknesses in that time frame. I hope as I learn and progress that it will do enough long term planning to continue to fight well through much longer time frames, because I too don't play PBEM anymore.

It's true that the consensus in the forums is that the AI is better in shorter scenario titles - like Alea Jacta Est (which I don't have), but I've noticed that a lot of the criticism has been directed at Wars of Napoleon, not because it's longer and the AI doesn't do long-term planning, but because there are many smaller factions that the AI must handle each scenario, and it doesn't handle that very well. Most titles are just 2 sides, including WoS.

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 2/1/2018 2:51:31 PM   
marek1978

 

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not all the players are in to arcade games , and not all the people love memories of playing toy soldiers

pike and shot and field of glory are fine but really boring


if one is in to history, loves reading about it, then grand strategy level provided by ageod will be perfect



quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Play Pike n Shot instead or Field of Glory II; you'll enjoy the ai play much better than ageod games.


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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 2/1/2018 4:20:46 PM   
mkeogh76

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenix100

I wonder if it's true - as someone above said - that it does no long-term planning? I hope that's fake news. For instance, raising recruits is essential in the longer games and I cannot think they've actually designed an AI that doesn't do this. The games wouldn't get anywhere near the lengths advertised if this was so, no?

I am very new to the games and have never played above around twenty turns so far. I haven't noticed any glaring AI weaknesses in that time frame. I hope as I learn and progress that it will do enough long term planning to continue to fight well through much longer time frames, because I too don't play PBEM anymore.

It's true that the consensus in the forums is that the AI is better in shorter scenario titles - like Alea Jacta Est (which I don't have), but I've noticed that a lot of the criticism has been directed at Wars of Napoleon, not because it's longer and the AI doesn't do long-term planning, but because there are many smaller factions that the AI must handle each scenario, and it doesn't handle that very well. Most titles are just 2 sides, including WoS.


You seem to have misunderstood what I meant by "long term planning." The AI approaches every turn the exact same way- it will recruit, it will move its units usually to places where it the player has strength, it will combine its units into stacks, and it will attack if it thinks the odds favor it. However, it does NONE of those things with any concept of how it will effect the game the next turn, let alone 5, 10, or 20 turns down the road.

This is ok when the scenario isn't too long, but the longer the scenario then the more Ageod's AI will struggle even with boosts and/or the player handicapping himself through the attrition and activation options. What makes those monster scenarios so much fun for the player are their demands of setting long term goals and trying to figure-out how to achieve them, but the AI doesn't do that. It works strictly in the moment.

I have a great deal of experience with Ageod games, and, although I think their AI is decent as strategy PC gaming AIs go, I'm already noticing a lot of the same AI behavior in WSS that has undermined it in every other Ageod game. It's 1705 playing as the Bourbons, I've already opened-up a significant NMP lead over the AI and that's only going to get more exacerbated as the game goes by. I've watched large AI armies whither away due to the AI's mishandling of the attrition and supply rules. It attacks with armies consisting of just artillery batteries which I then capture. It currently has a Dutch army in Hungary. The script helped it with an invasion of Spain, but then it had its armies wandering all over the map to no strategic purpose where I'll be able to corner and destroy them. It hasn't blockaded the port of one of my besieged cities and thus the siege goes on and on.

Frankly, I don't expect much from the AI. I put-up with its glaring weaknesses because PBEM sometimes isn't feasible and trying to outsmart myself playing both sides hotseat has no appeal. I love Ageod's games, and they can be a lot of fun even playing solo. However, I know that I'm probably going to quit my current campaign long before its end because the AI is going to get weaker and weaker the longer I play. It's strictly just crunching numbers on a turn-by-turn basis with no ability to plan ahead that could provide a long-term challenge. It is what it is.

< Message edited by mkeogh76 -- 2/1/2018 4:23:28 PM >

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 2/1/2018 7:05:12 PM   
marek1978

 

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what made my experience with War of Succesions much higher was bit of adjusting setting

first of all i turn off historical attrution for AI
it is bit game - yet it makes it easier for AI to manouver armies

then i gave high raking to the AI - meaning it genneraly is more lucky and thus harder to bit

then gave it medium adventege in fog of war ( AI sees bit more)
yet the very same time i gave it edium agresivvnes

so i have lucky opponet who can easily manouver and sees a lot but is cautios

and since that change i am having bit of a challenge

( i am playig sweden in GNW sceraio)

what works well in almost evry Ageod game it to take the side that doeas have to attack - so sweden and great alliance here

Athena is doing much better job in defending

and when you are on the ofencive you have to take care of the most ipmortant thing in that game - supply

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 2/2/2018 4:03:27 AM   
aaatoysandmore

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marek1978

not all the players are in to arcade games , and not all the people love memories of playing toy soldiers

pike and shot and field of glory are fine but really boring


if one is in to history, loves reading about it, then grand strategy level provided by ageod will be perfect



quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Play Pike n Shot instead or Field of Glory II; you'll enjoy the ai play much better than ageod games.




Imho Ageod games are very boring and old school wargames of the cardboard and board game era (a dying breed I might add). Now are the days of games like Pike n Shot and Field of Glory II and Battle Academy. Much more fun to play and don't take a year to play like some of these boardgame types.

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 2/2/2018 9:33:18 AM   
marek1978

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore


quote:

ORIGINAL: marek1978

not all the players are in to arcade games , and not all the people love memories of playing toy soldiers

pike and shot and field of glory are fine but really boring


if one is in to history, loves reading about it, then grand strategy level provided by ageod will be perfect
De gustibus non est disputandum


quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

Play Pike n Shot instead or Field of Glory II; you'll enjoy the ai play much better than ageod games.




Imho Ageod games are very boring and old school wargames of the cardboard and board game era (a dying breed I might add). Now are the days of games like Pike n Shot and Field of Glory II and Battle Academy. Much more fun to play and don't take a year to play like some of these boardgame types.





De gustibus non est disputandum

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 2/2/2018 10:47:12 PM   
Rosseau

 

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To each his own my friend aaatoysandmore. But I am having a great time modding and playing To End All Wars (and WoS), for example. The scope and complexity of the large Ageod games makes the Battle Academy series now seem boring after repeated play - at least for single player. MP is great, but got no time for it.

I will admit English Civil War and Espana are snippets of games (for me). So unless you are very into the history, not complex enough.

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 2/3/2018 12:00:26 AM   
tevans

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mkeogh76
You seem to have misunderstood what I meant by "long term planning." The AI approaches every turn the exact same way- it will recruit, it will move its units usually to places where it the player has strength, it will combine its units into stacks, and it will attack if it thinks the odds favor it. However, it does NONE of those things with any concept of how it will effect the game the next turn, let alone 5, 10, or 20 turns down the road.


Is that really a problem though? As near as I can tell the AI plays the game the same way I do. I may have a general 'long term' plan but it's always subject to change based on the current situation. Isn't it better to have an AI that can change and adapt from turn to turn instead of having an AI with a rigid plan that never changes? The thing I like about Athena (Ageod's AI) is that it evaluates everything on a turn by turn basis. I would much rather have that than have an AI playing Civil War II and rigidly heading towards Richmond due to a long term plan when my army has Washington in it's sights. The AI needs to be able to adapt and change. To me evaluating the situation turn to turn seems to be the best way for Athena to do that.

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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 2/3/2018 2:13:50 AM   
BletchleyGeek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans
Is that really a problem though? As near as I can tell the AI plays the game the same way I do. I may have a general 'long term' plan but it's always subject to change based on the current situation. Isn't it better to have an AI that can change and adapt from turn to turn instead of having an AI with a rigid plan that never changes? The thing I like about Athena (Ageod's AI) is that it evaluates everything on a turn by turn basis. I would much rather have that than have an AI playing Civil War II and rigidly heading towards Richmond due to a long term plan when my army has Washington in it's sights. The AI needs to be able to adapt and change. To me evaluating the situation turn to turn seems to be the best way for Athena to do that.


Toddlers operate in very much the same way and eventually you have to take them out of the sticky situations they inevitably will maneuver themselves into. Toddlers, nevertheless, eventually figure out that actions have long term consequences, some of them desirable, others not so much.

mkeogh observation is that long terms "goals" should influence decisions more strongly, not that "goals" need to be set in stone for the duration of a game. You'll eventually be replanning, but if you change your plans every turn on the basis of what a crafty adversary does, chances are you will not get anywhere.

< Message edited by BletchleyGeek -- 2/3/2018 2:14:15 AM >


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RE: How does the A.I works and is it any good ? - 2/3/2018 3:32:13 AM   
mkeogh76

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans


quote:

ORIGINAL: mkeogh76
You seem to have misunderstood what I meant by "long term planning." The AI approaches every turn the exact same way- it will recruit, it will move its units usually to places where it the player has strength, it will combine its units into stacks, and it will attack if it thinks the odds favor it. However, it does NONE of those things with any concept of how it will effect the game the next turn, let alone 5, 10, or 20 turns down the road.


Is that really a problem though? As near as I can tell the AI plays the game the same way I do. I may have a general 'long term' plan but it's always subject to change based on the current situation. Isn't it better to have an AI that can change and adapt from turn to turn instead of having an AI with a rigid plan that never changes? The thing I like about Athena (Ageod's AI) is that it evaluates everything on a turn by turn basis. I would much rather have that than have an AI playing Civil War II and rigidly heading towards Richmond due to a long term plan when my army has Washington in it's sights. The AI needs to be able to adapt and change. To me evaluating the situation turn to turn seems to be the best way for Athena to do that.


The OP asked about the AI. I think it's decent as long as one doesn't have unrealistic expectations, and expecting it to be a challenging opponent over 150-200 turns on a vast map with a huge array of choices as to strategy, army composition, and recruitment is NOT realistic. Ageod's games complexity as to the choices one has to make is a big part of their appeal, but don't expect the AI to be able handle it too well over the long haul due to it being programmed to do "strategy on the fly." That eventually leads to it collapsing. It fares best, like almost all PC strategy game AIs, when its options are fairly limited. It's been like this since Birth of America.

I don't expect any significant changes as to how it works. The only choices one has are: 1) PBEM, 2) solo hotseat, and 3) accepting the AI as it is and using the various options to give it some help. I certainly have chosen #3 most of the time and obviously I enjoy playing that way, but when people ask about the AI I don't want them being deluded into thinking that AI will offer a significant, long-term challenge in the big campaign scenarios. It's going to start to struggle the longer, bigger and more complex the scenario.

< Message edited by mkeogh76 -- 2/3/2018 3:45:27 AM >

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