Sorry! I meant to say "has conquered France" not "Spain" - my chemo brain at work I'm afraid! BTW, I'd especially love to hear responses from players in Spain! One Spanish player mentioned he has used a house rule where Germany has to pay 15 BPs to activate Spain, so I'd love to get feedback from members that have read the most current writings on war-time Spain!
if the Axis has taken Egypt and conquered Spain, maybe a roll for Spain's entrance into the Axis?
I don't understand this. If the Axis has conquered Spain, how can Spain enter as an Axis ally? After Spain is conquered, does it have any units left?
This has been discussed recently on this forum but I can't find it. This is not just about BP. If Spain join the Axis, then there needs to be three penalties; a massive (and I mean massive) BP one for Germany, a large hit guaranteed for US Entry and Vichy France overseas territories joining the Allies.
Based on the demands made by Franco I tried the following - 1) Germany (and/or Italy) MUST attempt to occupy the Canary Islands with at least a 4 point Corps, 2) Germany MUST pay 15 BPs, 3) Germany MUST attempt to Construct or Rebuild ALL Spanish units. This would reflect Franco's desire to keep control of the Canary Islands as well as his demands that Germany invest in his battered country. For Germany it is a real challenge to have to complete construction of weak Spanish Battleships when much better German ones are available - as one example.
Well its your house rule so so long as you're happy with it then that is what counts . To my mind it ignores the political reality that three into two (Italy, Spain, Vichy) don't go so personally I wouldn't want to play with such an option. Obviously World In Flames is about what-ifs so I have no objection to new rules to align minors, but this didn't happen historically for good reasons and those, in my opinion, need to be taken into account in any alignment rule.
I understand the problem with "three into two" - especially when both Spain and Italy wanted a piece of French colonial possessions! This is why in my scenario France must be conquered, not "Vichy'ed." While it is certainly true that Vichy battled the CW on occasion (following the attacks on French bases as well as Syria) actually getting Vichy to DOW GB would have proven a challenge. Having the French navy join the Axis would have been a huge addition but since they fought the Brits numerous times without declaring war it's hard to imagine how that could have come to pass, short of a British DOW on Vichy!
So my thinking is Spain was a potential ally given their ideology as well as their debt to Italy and Germany from the Civil War. Given enough practical support PLUS the expectation of GB losing its control of the Med, Spain would be the logical addition to the Axis.
Fair enough, although personally I would have thought if France is not 'Vichyed', i.e. they continue the fight from their North African Empire, then there is even less chance for Spain joining the war.
Given the state of his country after the civil war, Franco was not about to cheese off the Americans (and British) for no good reason. After Vichy, the French Empire is effectively out of the game. If there is no Petain and no Vichy, France - albeit a terribly weakened France - is still around and fighting alongside the UK and the Commonwealth. There are no side shows like Dakar, Operations Menace and Exporter and the Italian position in Libya is now in danger from two sides.
Any territorial gains that Franco wanted from a Vichy scenario i.e. French Morocco, are not now available without a fight. The conditions are thus very much less 'favourable' to Franco than they were under a Vichy scenario - and in real life of course Franco wasn't tempted by that.
Ironically, such a turn of events may have persuaded Hitler to pursue a Mediterranean strategy (although I am not convinced by that because of the call of Lebensraum) but who knows?
EDIT: If one is really keen to see Spain capable of being aligned in the game then I think current ADG treatment is reasonable (although does not go far enough imo to reflect likely reality).
The pre-requisite here is that Germany and/or Italy have done the hardwork and taken Gibraltar (and thus furthering the chances of the CW coming to terms - and so making a decision for war more palatable for Franco). But I still think that ADG should have added a German BP penalty (the risk of starvation of the Spanish people has not gone away) and Germany should be made to give French Morocco to the Spanish as part of the alignment deal too (I can't imagine Gibraltar falling without possession of North Africa unless Gib is left defenceless).
But that is just my £0.02 GBP.
< Message edited by warspite1 -- 1/12/2018 3:32:36 AM >
England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805