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HQ units and what they do in the game? Also cooperation questions

 
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HQ units and what they do in the game? Also cooperation... - 12/2/2017 10:01:17 AM   
jjdenver

 

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What exactly are HQ's useful for in the game? I searched manual for HQ and headquarter. Here is what I found basically:
1) if HQ has support squads and loses some, all units in formation suffer reduced supply (built in weakness since if no support squads there is no reduced supply - so this only weakness not benefit?)
2) if formation has an HQ unit and it's forced to reorg all of formation units may be forced to reorg (built in weakness not benefit for your formation?)
3) if HQ is next to or stacked with a cooperative unit it can help that unit get supply (this is only benefit I see from HQ's in the manual?)

A unit is cooperative if any of these are true:
A) same formation
B) same background symbol color if formation display for the unit says: army, force, free support but not if it says internal support
C) same background different symbol color if formation display for the unit says: free, force support but not army, internal support
D) different background color if formation display for the unit says: free support but not any other type

Q: In the A,B,C,D list above does the HQ support type have to be considered, or that of the unit receiving supply benefit? For example what if HQ formation support is free but unit needing supply formation support is internal and background color is same?

So for example in directive 21 there is a GE korp HQ, Axis 26 Inf korp that is part of AGN. It is different background and icon color than AGS units. Its formation has 3 units: the korp HQ, an eng, and an arty unit. It can roam anywhere on the map and provide supply to any unit on axis side regardless of background and icon color since its formation is set to "free support". There is no tie between this unit and the infantry divisions that start nearby, it's just a free roaming supply giver in the scenario in essence. Do I have this correct?

In addition if it has arty in the HQ unit then it could go to Odessa and support the Romanians freely and provide supply to them. Do I have it right?
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RE: HQ units and what they do in the game? Also coopera... - 12/2/2017 11:08:17 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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Some more info about HQs:

Two types of Headquarters Icons are represented in TOAW - one is represented with a checkered box and the other by "HQ"

The Checkered HQ is typically used to represent higher headquarters - Corps HQ, Army HQ, Army Group and Front Headquarters. They may or may not have units directly subordinate to them, which will show in their Formation Report. In most cases the units assigned to them will be support units (artillery, various engineers).

The standard HQ icon, as designated by "HQ", is most frequently assigned to division and brigade level formations. Units of a division are either directly subordinate to their Division HQ or modelled to demonstrate specific deployment doctrines, advantages or limitations - reflecing in Formation Support Levels (Internal, Army, Force or Free).

Both types of Headquarters may serve several functions:
1. All HQ's provide a supply bonus to adjacent friendly units with which it cooperates (per formation support levels). If Support Squads are included in its TO&E (Unit Report) - it's effectiveness in supply distribution is measured according to the number of Support Squads it has in relation to what it is authorized to have.
2. Frequently, HQ's will include Command Groups in their TO&E. In these cases, HQ's also serve a Command & Control function. HQ's that are attacked and lose its command groups may be force its entire formation into reorganization - effective in the next turn.
3. Frequently, HQ's will include artillery in their Unit Report. In such cases, HQ's serve the same role as a unit with the artillery icon - providing combat support to cooperating units within the range of its artillery. It is useful to examine the types of artillery present as the range of each type of artillery may vary.
4. HQ's also frequently include engineering assets. In most cases, the engineering ability of a HQ will be less than a regular engineer unit, owing to number of assigned engineer squads. Railroad repair and ferry engineers may be present further expanding their engineering capabilities. Where present, and where really needed, HQ's can apply their abilities to build bridges or use its ferry engineering ability to help units cross a river - reducing movement costs.
5. HQ's may include military police squads. These help reduce the costs of movement of units through overstacked hexes.

In addition to these possibilities, HQ's have "Rear Guard ability". Units moving out of a hex within an enemy Zone of Control (i.e. adjacent to an enemy unit) may suffer a "disengagement attack". However, you can use a HQ to move into the hex you want to evacuate, move the first unit out and follow it with the HQ, and both units will avoid the disengagement penalty. The important note on this is to ensure that a) the HQ has the movement points needed to get back to a safe area, and b) that the HQ is the last unit to evacuate a hex and that it moves directly into a hex with a friendly unit.


Klink, Oberst

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(in reply to jjdenver)
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RE: HQ units and what they do in the game? Also coopera... - 12/2/2017 1:19:04 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

In addition to these possibilities, HQ's have "Rear Guard ability". Units moving out of a hex within an enemy Zone of Control (i.e. adjacent to an enemy unit) may suffer a "disengagement attack". However, you can use a HQ to move into the hex you want to evacuate, move the first unit out and follow it with the HQ, and both units will avoid the disengagement penalty. The important note on this is to ensure that a) the HQ has the movement points needed to get back to a safe area, and b) that the HQ is the last unit to evacuate a hex and that it moves directly into a hex with a friendly unit.

Klink, Oberst


IMO a pure recon unit is better suited for this role. One that has a 99% recon capability.

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"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
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RE: HQ units and what they do in the game? Also coopera... - 12/2/2017 1:43:21 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4238
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

In addition to these possibilities, HQ's have "Rear Guard ability". Units moving out of a hex within an enemy Zone of Control (i.e. adjacent to an enemy unit) may suffer a "disengagement attack". However, you can use a HQ to move into the hex you want to evacuate, move the first unit out and follow it with the HQ, and both units will avoid the disengagement penalty. The important note on this is to ensure that a) the HQ has the movement points needed to get back to a safe area, and b) that the HQ is the last unit to evacuate a hex and that it moves directly into a hex with a friendly unit.

Klink, Oberst


IMO a pure recon unit is better suited for this role. One that has a 99% recon capability.

I didn't imply that a HQ should be used for that role all the time, but it does do its trick (disengagement); and from my experience not always with reece units, really.

Klink, Oberst

_____________________________

My Blog & on Twitter.
Visit CS Legion on Twitter & Facebook for updates.

(in reply to Lobster)
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RE: HQ units and what they do in the game? Also coopera... - 12/2/2017 6:31:39 PM   
Lobster


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Do you really think a HQ unit would be involved in a rear guard action? One of the gamey things that they are used for in TOAW. Just sayin.

Forgot, artillery will serve the same purpose as a HQ unit in this respect. Still gamey but not to the same degree.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 12/2/2017 6:49:41 PM >


_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
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RE: HQ units and what they do in the game? Also coopera... - 12/3/2017 12:01:36 AM   
Meyer1

 

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I wouldn't say that something is gamey since that feature is explicitly stated in the manual... it is in any case an arguable game designer's choice.
Would be nice to know what's the logic behind this.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 6
RE: HQ units and what they do in the game? Also coopera... - 12/3/2017 3:40:58 AM   
Lobster


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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Meyer1

I wouldn't say that something is gamey since that feature is explicitly stated in the manual... it is in any case an arguable game designer's choice.
Would be nice to know what's the logic behind this.


Disengagement is automatic if:
§§ Your unit is either a Headquarters or Artillery
unit, and the destination location is occupied
by a friendly unit,...

It says absolutely nothing about moving your HQ, a high value weak unit, into a hex and fighting a rear guard action. It simply says it can disengage without triggering an enemy attack. I guess if people want to use their HQ units as front line combat units and have them fight rear guard actions as though they were a battalion of infantry that's their business. I'm just saying it's gamey, ie, unrealistic and isn't going to happen in the real world however, you can do it simply because the game mechanics let you.

If a HQ unit gets caught by enemy units moving adjacent that's an entirely different matter. Much has been done with this version of TOAW to eliminate some of the more egregious gamey actions but still people insist on doing gamey things.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

(in reply to Meyer1)
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RE: HQ units and what they do in the game? Also coopera... - 1/2/2018 9:07:27 PM   
TheeWarLord


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Wrong, it's not unusual at all to have HQ units at the front or at least very close to the fighting. Especially at the company and Battlion level. These Hq's provide an array of support services that require proximity to the lines. Whether it's fuel, ammo, chow, medics, mechanics, ect,ect. But for gamey purposes, keep them close, but safe.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 8
RE: HQ units and what they do in the game? Also coopera... - 1/2/2018 11:01:40 PM   
sPzAbt653


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I think you are taking it all too literally. I don't think that the rules for use of Artillery or HQ units to avoid disengagement is meant to portray those types of units physically performing such missions.

HQ's are not a favorite unit of mine, as you might notice in several of my scenario designs they are very limited in number or left out entirely. The original post here concerns Directive 21. Anyone playing that scenario past 1942 will find times that large sections of the Axis front must be pulled back. This type of maneuver is impossible to perform without the HQ's, so without the HQ's the scenario would be unplayable.

An alternative is to play with Disengagement Rules = OFF, but that introduces more grave dangers to some scenarios, D21 included.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 9
RE: HQ units and what they do in the game? Also coopera... - 1/2/2018 11:17:51 PM   
Meyer1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I think you are taking it all too literally. I don't think that the rules for use of Artillery or HQ units to avoid disengagement is meant to portray those types of units physically performing such missions.




Yeah one could think as the HQ coordinating the retreat instead of acting as a rear guard. Perhaps would be better if the HQ benefits would apply if the HQ is located at the target hex instead at the vacated hex. In fact, that's how I thought it worked...
Don't know what to think of the artillery, specially since there's no supply cost.



< Message edited by Meyer1 -- 1/2/2018 11:34:19 PM >

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
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