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Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 11/27/2017 3:54:17 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1646
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline 		Denniss has requested that all issues relating to Soviet OOB, incorrect commanders etc be posted in the one thread, so here goes. I am copying in some comments from other threads.

22nd Army

The 22nd Army was formed from the HQ of the Urals MD in June 1941 and was headquartered in Velikie Luki by the 22nd.

In the game it is led by Vostrukhov but the closest I can get to him having a role in this Army on 22nd June is as deputy commander, rear services (ie logistics). In fact the earliest commander I can find for the 22nd Army is (Y)Ershakov who took command on 22/6/41. In my opinion Ershakov is the most appropriate leader for this Army.

(Thanks to Dreamslayer for his analysis of Russian Sources).

morvael replied on the subsequent commander of the Ural Military District 'LG Aleksandr Vasilevich Katkov, according to Pettibone, replaced in 1945 by CG Fyodor Isidorovich Kuznetsov.'

7th Army

The Soviet 7th Army appears in the game as the 7th Independent Army under the command of Meretskov.

On June the 22nd this army was known as the 7th Army (Northern Front) and it was under the command of Gorelenko. (One source says he took command on 28/01/41 and another in June 41).

On the 25 September 1941 the 7th Army was directly subordinated to Stavka and was renamed the 7th Separate Army.

If we are using 21/6/41 as our baseline then a Name and Commander change is required.

Denniss replied : Commander change seems OK - Meretskov took command in 9/41. Renaming is a bit too much detail.




< Message edited by johntoml56 -- 11/27/2017 4:05:16 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 11/27/2017 7:26:31 AM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 6946
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: online 		changes done:
quote:

x GC41 and some smaller scenarios starting June/July 1941 x
SOV 7th Ind Army - commander change to Gorelenko
SOV 22nd Army - commander change to Ershakov
SOV Urals Military District - commander change to Katkov

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 2
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 11/27/2017 9:01:01 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
Status: offline 		Ural M.D.
Zhernakov Ilya Alexandrovich(colonel)
on 17 June 1941 was appointed for interim(?) chief of staff
on 21 June 1941 was appointed for interim(?) of Commander of Ural M.D.

Katkov Alexandr Vasilevich(general-major) took this command from october/november 1941.

(in reply to Denniss)
Post #: 3
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 11/27/2017 9:08:11 AM   
morvael


Posts: 11753
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Unfortunately we don't have colonels in WitE (it was a problem in one small scenario), so I guess Katkov is best choice (compromise).

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 4
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 11/27/2017 9:30:40 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1646
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline 		Orel Military District Commander

I have found a reference to the fact that Pavel A Kurochkin (not Remezov) was Commander in Chief of the OMD for a very short period, from the 19th June 1941 to early July 1941. Can anyone else confirm this?

20th Army

Commanded by Borzikov in the game but the closest I can get to him being associated with this Army is as deputy Commander on 1/7/1941. Remezov took command for a short time on the 25th June 1941. Remezov would appear to be the more appropriate leader.

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 5
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 11/27/2017 9:51:53 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
Status: offline
quote:

I have found a reference to the fact that Pavel A Kurochkin (not Remezov) was Commander in Chief of the OMD for a very short period, from the 19th June 1941 to early July 1941. Can anyone else confirm this?

Kurochkin
22 June 1940 - 14 January 1941 - Commander of 17A(Transbaikal M.D.)
14 January 1941 - 19 June 1941 - Commander of the Transbaikal M.D.
From 19 June 1941(NKO's order #00317) Commander of the Orel M.D.
5 Jule 1941 was appointed for 20A(Western Front)

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 6
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 11/27/2017 1:45:48 PM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 6946
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: online 		wiki claims Remezov was in charge of 20th Army

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 7
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 11/27/2017 11:44:23 PM   
56ajax


Posts: 1646
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

wiki claims Remezov was in charge of 20th Army

Yep, Remezov was in command of the 20th Army from 25/06/41 to 5/07/41 then he went to briefly command the 13th Army before he pops up again as CIC Northern Caucasus MD



< Message edited by johntoml56 -- 11/28/2017 3:15:11 AM >

(in reply to Denniss)
Post #: 8
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 11/28/2017 3:33:44 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1646
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline 		North Caucasus MD

In the game Konev is the commander but he relinquished this post on 13/06/1941. At that time the deputy commander was M.A. Reiter, who became acting CIC North Caucasus MD on 22/06/41.

19th Army

In the game Boldin is the commander but he did not take command until 20/10/41. Konev took command on 26/06/1941.

Assuming the above is correct I suggest we make Reiter CIC NC MD, and Konev commander of the 19th Army. If possible.


(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 9
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 11/28/2017 9:09:02 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
Status: offline 		johntoml56
sorry, what "CIC" is means?

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 10
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 11/28/2017 9:31:07 AM   
morvael


Posts: 11753
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		commander in chief

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 11
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 11/30/2017 10:43:55 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
Status: offline 		I guess there is no point to have Northern Fleet Air Command HQ on the map/scenarios.
Actually this Command operated far to north (mostly for air cover of the Fleet bases,Fleet ops and naval recon), it is off-map in the game.
At start of the war this Command had only 1 ground airfield(Vaenga, near Severomorsk) and with the exception of some patrol/support air units had only 1 air regiment (72th SAP - 49 old-types fighters and 11 SB-2). In October 1941 there was formed another one regiment - 78th IAP(used Hurricane IIB planes).

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 12
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 12/1/2017 2:25:52 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1646
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline 		Volga Military District (VMD)

In the game V Gerasimenko is listed as the Commander of the VMD but M T Popov (deputy commander VMD) was appointed Commander in Chief sometime in June 1941.

21st Army

In the game M Efremov is listed as the commander but he was not appointed until 26th July? 1941. V Gerasimenko was commander on 22nd June 1941.

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 13
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 12/1/2017 5:31:38 AM   
Omat


Posts: 2328
Joined: 8/18/2004
Status: offline
Many suggestion are for Dates after 21.June 1941. But the developer tried to find the leader which commanded the HQ in the night 21/22. June. So all depends on which Date you set as "starting" point for the assignment of the leaders.

Of course after the 21/22. June the exchange of leaders on the soviet side was extrem...

And to make it more complicated some leaders where on the "way"..
Kovalev should take over the command of the Transbaikel MD. But he does not take up his command. The same for Kurochkin. He does not "reached" his new command in the morining 22. June.

So in a way every way you chose the assignment is "not correct" and can be criticized

_____________________________

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
Bertrand Russell

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 14
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 12/1/2017 8:44:43 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1646
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Omat


Many suggestion are for Dates after 21.June 1941. But the developer tried to find the leader which commanded the HQ in the night 21/22. June. So all depends on which Date you set as "starting" point for the assignment of the leaders.

Of course after the 21/22. June the exchange of leaders on the soviet side was extrem...

And to make it more complicated some leaders where on the "way"..
Kovalev should take over the command of the Transbaikel MD. But he does not take up his command. The same for Kurochkin. He does not "reached" his new command in the morining 22. June.

So in a way every way you chose the assignment is "not correct" and can be criticized


Tend to agree and to be honest in some instances I cannot find out who was in charge on 21/06/41. That said I would prefer someone who was in charge on the 22/06 to someone who did not take up the post till months later.

And it is not criticism but correction, or in some instances a better guess.


< Message edited by johntoml56 -- 12/1/2017 8:45:22 AM >

(in reply to Omat)
Post #: 15
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 12/1/2017 12:37:56 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Omat


Many suggestion are for Dates after 21.June 1941. But the developer tried to find the leader which commanded the HQ in the night 21/22. June. So all depends on which Date you set as "starting" point for the assignment of the leaders.

Of course after the 21/22. June the exchange of leaders on the soviet side was extrem...

And to make it more complicated some leaders where on the "way"..
Kovalev should take over the command of the Transbaikel MD. But he does not take up his command. The same for Kurochkin. He does not "reached" his new command in the morining 22. June.

So in a way every way you chose the assignment is "not correct" and can be criticized

I guess there is need to divide start dates (for Soviet OOB).

One date(21-22 June) for the formations of the M.D. which was involved into combat during 1st turn.
And other date for the rear formations. When Soviet player sees after logistic phase motorized German units around Minsk,Riga etc. it is not 21-22 June for him =)

On the 1st turn Soviet player does not have enough AP for make so many changes(leader and units reassighnings).
So some changes which was made historically around 21-25 June in the Soviet rear will not hurt anyone. Because it is not affect any combat.

E.g. 19th Army. unfrozen on turn 2. Leader there does not affect any combat during 1-2 turns. But we will get historically correct leader for this HQ on the the turn 3. I think it is good. And having "random" leaders in some of these HQ is not so good.

(in reply to Omat)
Post #: 16
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 12/1/2017 1:27:50 PM   
Omat


Posts: 2328
Joined: 8/18/2004
Status: offline
I think you addressed an important point Dreamslayer. With the limitation of ap it is hard to redo the historical leader changes... especially in the first year of war.

_____________________________

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
Bertrand Russell

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 17
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 12/2/2017 8:38:04 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1646
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline 		22nd Rifle Corp

In the game it is commanded by Dukanhov but I cannot find any reference for this appointment. It was commanded by A Ksenofontov from 3/6/41 to 22/9/41.

(Thanks to Dreamslayer for research and analysis.)

(in reply to Omat)
Post #: 18
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 12/2/2017 10:18:47 AM   
Omat


Posts: 2328
Joined: 8/18/2004
Status: offline 		Mybe this:

http://www.niehorster.org/012_ussr/41_oob/baltic/army_27.html

Other sources indicates Ksenofontov as commander. I think Ksenofontov is more correct.

Omat

quote:

ORIGINAL: johntoml56

22nd Rifle Corp

In the game it is commanded by Dukanhov but I cannot find any reference for this appointment. It was commanded by A Ksenofontov from 3/6/41 to 22/9/41.

(Thanks to Dreamslayer for research and analysis.)

quote:

22nd Rifle Corp


< Message edited by Omat -- 12/2/2017 10:23:12 AM >

_____________________________

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
Bertrand Russell

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 19
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 12/2/2017 12:36:20 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: johntoml56

22nd Rifle Corp

In the game it is commanded by Dukanhov but I cannot find any reference for this appointment. It was commanded by A Ksenofontov from 3/6/41 to 22/9/41.


Mikhail Dukhanov(Михаил Духанов in rus.)-in the game Dukanhov.
On May 1940 - assistant of the Commander of Leningrad M.D.
In the war from August 1941 - assistant of Commander of Northern Front.
On 19 Sep - commander of 10th Rifle division

Alexandr Ksenofontov
on 1938 - commander of 43th Rifle corps(1st Far East Army) which participated in battles against Japan around Lake Hassan.
On 3 June 1941 - was appointed commander of 22th Rifle corps.
from September 1941 - deputy of the commander of 11th Army

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 20
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 12/2/2017 2:29:55 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
Status: offline 		I guess additional cost of AP(+ around 40 AP) when appointing Soviet General-Leitenant for Front/M.D. Command need to be removed.

First of all, appointing GL for these HQ was usual practice, it was not something extraordinary.
For example, if look at commanders of 16 pre-war Military Districts + 1 Far East Front (lets even look before some changes during
15-30 June, Like commander of Odessa M.D. forming 9th Army and became its commander) we can see:
3 GA - Moscow M.D., Far East Front,Western M.D.
3 GP - Baltic M.D.,Kiev M.D.,Odessa M.D.
1 GM - Cental-Asian M.D.
and 10 GL commanding in others M.D.

After restoration the general-ranks in the 1940 RKKA has not so many high-ranked generals.

On the 22 June there was only 5 Marshals:
Voroshilov and Budyonny - "old-school"-generals
Kulik - Deputy of People's Commissar of Defense, artillery general
Timoshenko - People's Commissar of Defense (Narkom Oborony)
Shaposhnikov - Deputy of People's Commissar of Defense

5 Generals of Armii:
Zhukov - Chief of the General Staff
Apanasenko - Commander of the Far East Front
Pavlov - Commander of the Western M.D.
Tyulenev - Commander of the Moscow M.D.
Meretskov - Deputy of People's Commissar of Defense ,arrested 23 Jun 1941

4 General-Polkovniks:
Kirponos - Commander of the Kiev M.D.
F.Kuznetsov - Commander of the Baltic M.D.
Cherevichenko - Commander of the Odessa M.D.
Gorodovikov - also "old-school"-general, chief of the cavalry inspection

plus 2 more GP of artillery
plus 2 more GP under arrest,both was executed in Oct 1941

So, appointing GL for M.D. or Front Command it was usual thing.

Some examples about Fronts in 1941:
Karelian Front - V.Frolov(GL)
Leningrad Front - Khozin(GL)
NW Front - Sobennikov(GM) ,Kurochkin(GL)
Southern Front - Ryabyshev(GL),Malinovsky(GL)

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 21
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 12/3/2017 12:22:44 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1646
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline 		The Curious Case of the 65th (LXV) Rifle Corps.

Both Glantz and Askey reference it as being a Corps HQ in the Baltic Military District as of 22/06/1941 but I cannot find any assigned Divisions or Support Units.

As far as I can gather the first commander was N.M Shestopalov (KIA 27/06/1941) who took command in 07/1940 and was re assigned on 11/03/1941 to the 12th Mech Corps. The 65th HQ was then commanded by K.V. Komissarov (KIA 02/03/1942) until 29/08/1941.

12th Mech Corps

In the game it is led by I Koronikov but he did not take command until 14/07/1941. As per above it was commanded by Shestopalov who was KIA on the 27/06/41, probably in the counter attack against 16th Pz Corp.

Would like some confirmation on the above.

(Thanks to Dreamslayer for the initial analysis).

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 22
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 12/3/2017 2:38:13 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1646
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline 		2nd Cav Corps

In the game it is commanded by Pavel M Belov but the actual commander was Pavel A Belov. The former was in Artillery and the latter in Cavalry. Game picture is for Pavel M Belov.

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 23
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 12/3/2017 9:07:15 AM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 6946
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: online 		I did most of the suggested changes except Shestopalov who does not exist in Leader DB

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 24
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 12/3/2017 10:33:12 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: johntoml56

The Curious Case of the 65th (LXV) Rifle Corps.

Both Glantz and Askey reference it as being a Corps HQ in the Baltic Military District as of 22/06/1941 but I cannot find any assigned Divisions or Support Units.

As far as I can gather the first commander was N.M Shestopalov (KIA 27/06/1941) who took command in 07/1940 and was re assigned on 11/03/1941 to the 12th Mech Corps. The 65th HQ was then commanded by K.V. Komissarov (KIA 02/03/1942) until 29/08/1941.

12th Mech Corps

In the game it is led by I Koronikov but he did not take command until 14/07/1941. As per above it was commanded by Shestopalov who was KIA on the 27/06/41, probably in the counter attack against 16th Pz Corp.

Would like some confirmation on the above.

Nikolay Shestopalov(GM)
From June 1940 - commander of the 65th Rifle corps
On 11 March,1941 - commander of the 12th Mech corps
On 27 June,1941 he was wounded,was taken prisoner(not sure how is it more correct phrase)and died because of wounds.

Korovnikov
On March 1941 - deputy of the commander of 2nd Tank division(3rd Mech corps)
On July 1941 - deputy of the commander of 12th Mech corps

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 25
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 12/3/2017 2:10:51 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
Status: offline 		A few corrections of locations for Baltic M.D.'s HQs on 21/22 June:

Baltic M.D. - Panevezys
27 A - Riga
8 A - Siauliai

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 26
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 12/3/2017 10:17:26 PM   
56ajax


Posts: 1646
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

I did most of the suggested changes except Shestopalov who does not exist in Leader DB

Thanks.

(in reply to Denniss)
Post #: 27
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 12/4/2017 2:16:55 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1646
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline 		Ist Rifle Corps

In the game it is commanded by Batsanov but he did not take up this appointment until 19/08/1941. F. D. Rubtsov was Corp Commander from 27/04/1940 to 06/07/1941.

66th Rifle Corp

In the game commanded by Rubtsov but the actual commander was F Sudakov (not in the game?) from 19/06/1941 to 04/07/1941

(All 3 generals were KIA early in the war.)

Thanks to Dreamslayer for initial analysis.

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 28
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 12/4/2017 2:35:28 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1646
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline 		3rd Airborne Corps Location 22/06/1941

In the game it is located adjacent to Odessa but the HQ, 5th and 6th Airborne Brigades appear to have been located at Pervomaysk (81/98) whilst the 212th was at Voznesensk (83/101)

(Askey - 5th and 6th newly formed, only the 212th was parachute trained, and all 3 had never trained as a combined unit. Kept well out of harms way for the first 2 weeks of the war).

Thanks to Dreamslayer for assistance.

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 29
RE: Soviet Leaders/OOB Issues - 12/5/2017 4:36:19 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1646
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline 		57th Separate Sapper (Red Banner) Battalion.

So far the only reference I have found is in the Russian WIKI. Attached to the Ist Rifle Corp, translation as follows :

On June 22, 1941, he was stationed in the village of Dziki near Bialystok .

As part of the army from June 22, 1941 to July 6, 1942.

June 22, 1941 managed to take positions in the Osovetsk fortified area near the village of Popki and until 12:00, used as a conventional infantry, restrained the enemy's attacks. By 19:00 the same day he went to the forest of Rogenica Velky. On the night of June 23, 1941, was withdrawn from the positions and transferred to the restoration of the destroyed crossings over the river Bobr near Vizny , where the headquarters of the corps was located. [1] On June 23, 1941, on the battalion's site, the enemy broke through to his positions and the sappers again held the enemy for several hours. [2]

Destroyed at the end of June 1941, surrounded by Bialystok .

July 6, 1941 disbanded.

Can anyone else find a reference?

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 30
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