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TOAW4 - 11/21/2017 11:46:30 AM   
falco148

 

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Anybody bought this? Any good? Comparisons to ATG?
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RE: TOAW4 - 11/22/2017 4:49:11 AM   
LJBurstyn

 

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I have....complicated game. I am playing the tutorial and it's a terrible tutorial...Got more out of the "let's play" videos. As far as it being good I'll have to get back to you on that....the AI is much smarter than the AI in ATG.

(in reply to falco148)
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RE: TOAW4 - 11/22/2017 4:45:36 PM   
sIg3b


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The main difference is that Advanced Tactics is more about Strategic Operations, whereas the Operational Art of War series is more about Tactics.

(in reply to LJBurstyn)
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RE: TOAW4 - 11/27/2017 12:04:23 PM   
iTac


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I'm considering buying this game but have not made up my mind as yet. By the way, ATG is on sale for $9.99 at this time. That is a deal not to be passed up if you don't already own the game.

< Message edited by iTac -- 11/27/2017 12:05:47 PM >

(in reply to sIg3b)
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RE: TOAW4 - 11/27/2017 9:38:09 PM   
sIg3b


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ATG is the only 4X with random maps in a WW2 world. It is very well done. I heartily recommend it to anybody who doesn´t have it, yet. (If such a person exists, that is. )

(in reply to iTac)
Post #: 5
RE: TOAW4 - 11/28/2017 6:08:20 AM   
Ormand


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I don't have TOAW4, although I have each of the three previous versions. There are a couple differences.

1. TOAW is basically an operational level game with a strength on specific historical scenarios. By operational, I mean a planned action in a specific geographic area during a fixed time period. The objectives are defined by the scenario rule, i.e., your superiors. Your role is to assume command of the operation. You don't have that much control over the makeup of your forces, or future reinforcements. There are upper-level commanders making these decisions for you, and you have to execute the operation. ATG can do this as well, but through user-made scenarios, and not out of the box, so to speak. This is basically the core of TOAW. It comes with many scenarios.

2. ATG can be extended to a strategic game with its economic engine where the player determines production and technological research. This is also done with random maps, giving a full war between regimes, and not just a specific operation. It is sort of a difference between recreating history or making an alternative history. In this regard, I think ATG has more replayability, as the random games are different every time. It isn't a matter of trying a different move, or hoping for a better random number this time; the whole world is different.

3. TOAW has a very extensive library of equipment, and I think it "scales" more easily as the hex and time scales change in the scenario. ATG can have an extensive library as well. But, it is something that the modding community will have to do, as it is not part of the core game.

4. What looks like to be a fairly big difference is that TOAW4 uses a movement then combat system. And movement is based on movement points. You move and plan a serious of attacks, and then if there is time left in your turn, you can move and fight again. In ATG, movement and combat take up action points. You can move several units, and then conduct attacks, or you can attack a unit in place and then move another unit.

5. From the TOAW4 tutorials, which look to be impossible to follow, it looks like TOAW4 might have a more realistic time-management system. Namely, that the movements are synced up to determine how time is used. For example, if a unit is moved to block the retreat of a unit, and it takes all of its movement to get there, then that attack would use up all the turn.

6. TOAW4 looks to have put effort into improving naval units and their combat. ATG AI doesn't use ships well. It won't use carriers, and it won't use surface ships to bombard a hex prior to an amphibious landing.

7. Being newer, I suspect the TOAW4 AI is a bit stronger. But, it generally has less to worry about, namely, it doesn't deal with production, and the long-term strategic aspects. And, the ATG AI has improved its combat. The ATG AI also has some issues in structure of the units. For example, it will sometimes fail to optimize a mixed unit's movement capability.

8. In many ways, the Decisive Campaigns series is a set of operational campaigns, much like TOAW, based on the ATG engines.

9. ATG is moddable in many ways.

Like all things, it depends on what you are looking for. If you want to play many different detailed historical actions, then TOAW4 is a good choice. If you want the random game, and lead your "country", then ATG offers something few others can. Same if you want to mod the heck out of it. ATG, though, can also do the scenarios, it just needs a lot of work put into it do so.

(in reply to sIg3b)
Post #: 6
RE: TOAW4 - 11/29/2017 3:02:54 PM   
lion_of_judah


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I don't see any point in wasting money on TOAW IV if you still have only two sides and cannot produce anything like you can in ATG, so for me unless TOAW IV has added these, then nope I will not buy it

(in reply to falco148)
Post #: 7
RE: TOAW4 - 11/30/2017 3:57:56 AM   
Zaratoughda


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I think this pretty much sumarizes TOAW3 vs ATG.

I have TOAW3 and MANY scenarios but have not played it in a while.

The problem I have with TOAW3, is when you resolve a combat the game removes movement points from every unit on your side as if they had been in the combat. What this means is you have to manage this all over your front and this gets to be a major PAIN. I suggested they make free movement and combat an option but they would not go for it (too bad).

The big advantage of TOAW is the user generated scenario pool. You can get reasonably good scenarios on just about EVERYTHING (Franco-Prussian War, Seven Weeks War, Battle of Little Big Horn, WW3, Russo-Japenese War, etc, etc). I have no idea if all of these scenarios can be used with TOAW4.

IMO TOAW is much better than ATG when it comes to historical scenarios, albeit with the movement/combat problem.

Bottom line, I have not played TOAW3 in some time now, while I play random generated ATG, every day.

(in reply to Ormand)
Post #: 8
RE: TOAW4 - 12/5/2017 8:29:48 AM   
altipueri

 

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OT - Zaratoughda - I think I had some mods you made for the original AT - do they work with ATG? Thanks

(in reply to Zaratoughda)
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RE: TOAW4 - 12/5/2017 2:52:03 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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I can answer that one.

The answer is a yes. ATG is completely backwards compatible with AT.

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 10
RE: TOAW4 - 12/6/2017 9:03:10 PM   
CSO_Talorgan


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In TOAW rivers flow through the centers of hexes; not along the hex sides. I just cannot understand that.

> Does not compute

(in reply to ernieschwitz)
Post #: 11
RE: TOAW4 - 12/6/2017 9:45:13 PM   
Bombur

 

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I bought TOAW IV, TOAW and ATG are brothers, they are the two most flexile wargames ever built.
TOAW IV is better than ATG in the following aspects
1-Better optimized (it can run more units and a bigger variety of equipment without significant slowing)
2-Editor is far easier to use
3-More scenarios
4-Better for operational scenarios
5-Automatic correction of scale/movement according to map size/time scale
6-Better vanilla database
ATG is better in the follwing aspects
1-Allows for a much more sophisticated combat system (we can simulate ASW and night fighters, for instance)
2-Much better editor (also much more difficult to use)
3-Much better logistical system
4-Allows more than 2 players
5-Much better for strategic scenarios
Both games have a somewhat defficient but funcional naval system with ATG able to play better in strategic scenarios. TOAW now can simulate ship damage repair, but lacks completely submarines and sea supply interdiction. Also has a misterious and too complicated system to calculate anti ship ratings for aircraft.
Both games have a reasonable AI in small scenarios and a terrible one for big scenarios or mods.
I would take TOAW IV to build operational scenarios and ATG to build monster scenarios. I would like to see ATG to incorporate some of the naval improvements made by TOAW IV but I still thing the naval engine of ATG is better.

(in reply to CSO_Talorgan)
Post #: 12
RE: TOAW4 - 12/10/2017 11:50:47 AM   
falco148

 

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Thanks for the info Bombar & others. I think I'll go ahead and get TOAW4. Its actually available here in China. Would be nice if theres a pool of players
who play PBEM. I like playing against others as opposed to playing against AI which can be rather tedious. Shame that it has only a 2-player system though.

(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 13
RE: TOAW4 - 12/23/2017 2:15:22 AM   
Zaratoughda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

OT - Zaratoughda - I think I had some mods you made for the original AT - do they work with ATG? Thanks


I have no idea. In any case Vic incorporated some of the things I did in his later versions.

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 14
RE: TOAW4 - 12/23/2017 3:03:34 AM   
Zaratoughda


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I think I should add here... there were some things in the TOAW4 announcement that made me think that MAYBE they had fixed the movement management system so I went over there to the forums to find out and... well, looks like they have made some improvements but, still the same old TOAW.

In other words, a great game for scenario designers but, unlike ATG, the DC series, and games like WITE, the playability of the game is at best suspect.

If you go to the web site 'Rugged Defense', which is not mentioned in the forums but where they keep essentially ALL of the huge amount of user designed scenarios, you will see that you can get a scenario on just about anything.

With TOAW3, I was able to play scenarios on the Austro-Prussian War of 1866, the Russo-Japanese War, etc, etc, whereas I would not be able to find these otherwise anywhere.

But, I was playing a scenario on the Franco-Prussian War and didn't get very far because the insane movement management system kept ending the turn on me.

I think Koger developed the movement management system a long time ago and it is way outdated now and should either be replaced or simply thrown out and free movement used. As is, with units that should be able to attack not being able to, it probably induces more unrealism than it promotes realism.

To each their own I guess but, with the movement management system the way it is, not my cup of tea.

< Message edited by Zaratoughda -- 12/23/2017 3:11:06 AM >

(in reply to Zaratoughda)
Post #: 15
RE: TOAW4 - 12/23/2017 4:05:31 AM   
ernieschwitz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda


quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

OT - Zaratoughda - I think I had some mods you made for the original AT - do they work with ATG? Thanks


I have no idea. In any case Vic incorporated some of the things I did in his later versions.


Most everything made for the original AT can be used with ATG. Vic made sure to make it as backwards compatible as he could.

(in reply to Zaratoughda)
Post #: 16
RE: TOAW4 - 12/24/2017 2:50:10 AM   
Zaratoughda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda


quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

OT - Zaratoughda - I think I had some mods you made for the original AT - do they work with ATG? Thanks


I have no idea. In any case Vic incorporated some of the things I did in his later versions.


Most everything made for the original AT can be used with ATG. Vic made sure to make it as backwards compatible as he could.


I was able to bring it up but some things are working and some are not. Took a look at the code and it might be a challenge for me to fix it. We will see if I can get at it in depth or not.

(in reply to ernieschwitz)
Post #: 17
RE: TOAW4 - 12/25/2017 11:37:03 AM   
altipueri

 

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ATG is more enjoyable
TOAW is more realistic

The reason for the movement management in TOAW was to recognise that units can't be in two places at once and that time elapses for all units. In ATG you can attack, if that fails you can find another unit with 100 AP and bring that into attack, then maybe a third or fourth. IN TOAW it attempts to say, "well your first attack failed and that took half a day, so your second attack has only half a day left.

Even though I don't play it much TOAW is a classic - see if you can get a copy of the earlier versions - Aargh - I just (midday Christmas Day !) went to the store and see TOAW3 has been discontinued so you have to pay full price for TOAW4 (it's not in the seasonal sale). In fact I would say that's a decider. At least wait until next year when TOAW4 should be in the sale and try it then.

(in reply to Zaratoughda)
Post #: 18
RE: TOAW4 - 12/27/2017 7:05:09 AM   
falco148

 

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Thanks altipueri. Just bought TOAW4. Looks like a steep learning curve but I'm going to play against AI for a while to try and get a little bit familiar with it.

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 19
RE: TOAW4 - 12/28/2017 7:22:37 AM   
Vic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri
In ATG you can attack, if that fails you can find another unit with 100 AP and bring that into attack, then maybe a third or fourth. IN TOAW it attempts to say, "well your first attack failed and that took half a day, so your second attack has only half a day left.


True.

Though the previous stack points committed are remembered, so at some point you are going to face massive penalties when you keep finding new units to repeat the attack on the same hex.

Also the startup attack penalties makes it unwise to commit troops piecemeal.

However it is interesting this TOAW with the time measurement. And although the above does the job in quite a lot of cases, it doesn't do it in all. Especially light troop density battles with weak defenders.

I am making a note here :)

@Bombur,

I like the idea of adding the possibility to have "individual" subformations in ATG to allow for named Ships for example that can take damage. I added it to the list.

@all,

As some of you might know I am working hard to finish Shadow Empire. After that i'll have some time to see if I can bring some new features to the existing line of games. One of the drawbacks of being a one-man-army is I cannot work on everything at the same time.

Best wishes,
Vic

< Message edited by Vic -- 12/28/2017 7:33:09 AM >


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(in reply to falco148)
Post #: 20
RE: TOAW4 - 12/28/2017 8:18:45 AM   
altipueri

 

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Thanks for this game Vic - I admire you one man + dog teams. You do have a dog don't you?

How about the base game having a choice of eras - ancient, napoleonic, civil war - even just these traditional ones?


Random scenario generation is a key to me liking a game. Do not consider dropping it. :)

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 21
RE: TOAW4 - 12/29/2017 9:04:43 AM   
Ormand


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The "timing issue" is an interesting one! And, short of a "real-time" approach, there will always be compromises. For example, the fact that there are turns for each player during the same time period. The key is finding a nice playable balance to have a move-attack-exploit sequence that is needed in modern mobile warfare. Both the TOAW and ATG approaches can do this. TOAW is perhaps a bit more realistic, and, hence, strict, but also requires much more detail on the part of the player. In ATG, movement is combined with movement, thus it is difficult to think of movement being accomplished with movement points. To tell the truth, I am not so worried about the strict enforcement of time, such as forcing the expenditure of movement points so that blocking units are in place. Like I said, there will always be "timing" issues. As another example, consider tracked or wheeled units moving on a road in enemy territory. The first unit has to pay extra AP to enter enemy territory. But, following units don't. Thus, they can actually travel further than the first unit. The way I look at this is that you need a sufficient force to move and clear an area, and one unit would probably travel slower.

As for suggestions on what to do. Remembering stack points is good, although I do confess that I do see the AI conducting multiple attacks on the same hex. I suspect that this is less efficient than one larger attack that violated stacking limits. but ... Also, there is something to like about the move-attack at the same time. One thing I liked about the Panzer Gruppe Guderian system was overruns, which allowed you to take care of small blocking forces before the combat round, and during the exploitation phase.

One possibility for attacks is to impose, say, a 10 AP cost per separate attack on a hex for units that do not advance after combat into the hex, i.e., enter the hex later during the turn. Or some number that is based on how many rounds the attack lasts. One would still want to retain "overruns" on small forces that just get pushed aside. This would have some semblance of synchronicity and make it a bit harder to exploit a single breakthrough.

In general, to use mobile units, you have to have a pile of them ready, and plan the attack fairly carefully in order to be able to exploit a series of attacks.

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 22
RE: TOAW4 - 12/29/2017 12:47:32 PM   
Bombur

 

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quote:



@Bombur,

I like the idea of adding the possibility to have "individual" subformations in ATG to allow for named Ships for example that can take damage. I added it to the list.



If you implement such a change, it would be much easier to simulate naval campaigns in ATG (for instance, the Pacific war). Do you see a way to increase the number of SFT in naval units? 8 ships/TF is not realistic. Of course it would be possible to have lots of 8 ship TF´s.



(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 23
RE: TOAW4 - 12/31/2017 4:52:51 AM   
Zaratoughda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

ATG is more enjoyable
TOAW is more realistic



(hmmmm... Yeah, long post)

True.

But, how much more realistic is TOAW with the movement management system??

If one or more of your units doesn't get to move because of this, then that is an element of realism that is lost.

Also, units didn't just move a set amount in a given period of time. So, having a unit sit in the back and wait until you see how things go, and then move post haste to the front, isn't THAT unrealistic (you know, like that corps that Napoleon had double time, all day and night, to the battle at Austerlitz).

As I see it the allure of TOAW is it is a great game for scenario designers. Not sure why it is a better game than ATG is in this regard (maybe because it comes with TOEs), but it is. And, as I have said previously, there is a gold vault of scenarios (particularly on Rugged Defense) that are available.

But, the problem is (and this is an exaggeration to make a point), the game is not playable. Yeah, you can get trough a few smaller scenarios, and then, tediously, through some medium sized ones, but eventually you will get to the point, particularly once the game starts ending your turn before you are done, that the movement management system is too much of a pain to endure to make it worth playing.

I believe what Vic did in his DC series, was to keep track of the movement points used when an attack is made on a hex, and units passing through those hexes have to pay that to go through. This seems fine to me.

But, the more recent game is WITE, and it has totally free movement, and if you look at the number of posts for WITE compared to TOAW, WITE is WAY (!!) more popular (and probably sells a lot more), and don't try to tell me that TOAW is more accurate historically.

If someone wanted to do a game that is very popular and sells a ton, they should just do TOAW and give it free movement. I respect what Koger was trying to do with the original TOAW movement management system, but it is WAY outdated.

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 24
RE: TOAW4 - 12/31/2017 8:11:08 AM   
ernieschwitz

 

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quote:

As I see it the allure of TOAW is it is a great game for scenario designers. Not sure why it is a better game than ATG is in this regard (maybe because it comes with TOEs), but it is. And, as I have said previously, there is a gold vault of scenarios (particularly on Rugged Defense) that are available.


Not sure that it is better actually. Depends a lot on what you are trying to achieve. If it is a scenario, of a specific theater then it is better, for several reasons. If you want to make a strategic game, then it is worse. To me as a scenario designer, ATG is much more flexible, although there are some limits to what you can do with regards to ridges and such, graphically at least. If you want to make a multiplayer scenario, instead of a two player one, ATG is hands down the best, mostly cause TOAW doesn't allow for more than 2 players.

A lot of stuff to consider.

(in reply to Zaratoughda)
Post #: 25
RE: TOAW4 - 12/31/2017 3:54:21 PM   
athineos


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quote:

Random scenario generation is a key to me liking a game. Do not consider dropping it. :)


I concur.. that's is why I think JTCS is another good game. I am eagerly waiting for the CS Vietnam to be released next year. It will include a game editor/battle generator as all previous games in the series.

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 26
RE: TOAW4 - 12/31/2017 4:06:08 PM   
athineos


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tesuji

ATG is the only 4X with random maps in a WW2 world. It is very well done. I heartily recommend it to anybody who doesn´t have it, yet. (If such a person exists, that is. )


Don't forget JTCS and CS Middle East (Editor/Random Map Battle Generator)

(in reply to sIg3b)
Post #: 27
RE: TOAW4 - 1/2/2018 10:00:13 PM   
warnevada

 

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More than 30 years ago there was a game called Kampfgruppe, it's the original ancestor of the Steel Panther series. It solved the time management problem rather neatly. Both sides input their orders for the turn including all movement and combat and then the game resolved both sets of orders simultaneously. It's the original IGOUGOWEGO approach.

Considering the state of computers then a lot of what it did was quite crude, the same approach today would be enormously better.

The way it worked was you plotted each unit's movement hex by hex and specified what the unit was to do if it encountered an enemy, either stop and defend or attack. Defending units which didn't move you specified at which enemy units they should fire on or execute opportunity fire at an enemy which came adjacent. Attacking units which started adjacent to an enemy you could order to fire or to assault(by moving into the enemy hex.) All units got a quota of Action Points for the turn.

The way the game resolved the turn is by executing a number of cycles in the turn equal to the number of action points for the turn. Each cycle the game would look at each unit for the first player and follow their orders for one action point, then it would do the same for the second player. Combat results would not be applied until the end of the cycle, so if two units fired at each other, they could potentially both end up dead. The same approach for movement sometimes resulted in opposing units ending up back-to-back like duelists.

Assaults (opponents in same hex) which did not result in one side forcing the other side to retreat or killing them would continue into the next turn. Orders for that turn could be for either side to move out of the hex or to move additional units into the hex and continue the battle.

The game was great because the element of surprise was alive and well.


(in reply to athineos)
Post #: 28
RE: TOAW4 - 1/4/2018 10:34:56 AM   
Vic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bombur

quote:



@Bombur,

I like the idea of adding the possibility to have "individual" subformations in ATG to allow for named Ships for example that can take damage. I added it to the list.


If you implement such a change, it would be much easier to simulate naval campaigns in ATG (for instance, the Pacific war). Do you see a way to increase the number of SFT in naval units? 8 ships/TF is not realistic. Of course it would be possible to have lots of 8 ship TF´s.



I like this idea :) i think its next on the list


_____________________________

Visit www.vrdesigns.net for the latest news, polls, screenshots and blogs on Decisive Campaigns and Advanced Tactics


(in reply to Bombur)
Post #: 29
RE: TOAW4 - 2/7/2018 1:12:25 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri
In ATG you can attack, if that fails you can find another unit with 100 AP and bring that into attack, then maybe a third or fourth. IN TOAW it attempts to say, "well your first attack failed and that took half a day, so your second attack has only half a day left.


True.

Though the previous stack points committed are remembered, so at some point you are going to face massive penalties when you keep finding new units to repeat the attack on the same hex.

Also the startup attack penalties makes it unwise to commit troops piecemeal.

However it is interesting this TOAW with the time measurement. And although the above does the job in quite a lot of cases, it doesn't do it in all. Especially light troop density battles with weak defenders.

I am making a note here :)

@Bombur,

I like the idea of adding the possibility to have "individual" subformations in ATG to allow for named Ships for example that can take damage. I added it to the list.

@all,

As some of you might know I am working hard to finish Shadow Empire. After that i'll have some time to see if I can bring some new features to the existing line of games. One of the drawbacks of being a one-man-army is I cannot work on everything at the same time.

Best wishes,
Vic


Glad to hear you are still taking notes on ways to improve this already wonderful game, Vic! I still find myself firing up ATG for another go even years later. I really can't say the same about TAOW. I bought the Matrix version years back and lost interest pretty quick. I may or may not give TOAW 4 a try. Still debating if it's worth the price for me. I know ATG definitely was.

_____________________________


(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 30
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