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Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/18/2017 9:46:09 AM   
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Well it looks like I'm in for an AAR for an CSV AAR again.

Spoiler Alert the AAR at the beginning of this thread ends early at post #77. A new AAR will begin at post 78 or a link to it will be provided there. Even though this is not a complete AAR there is some useful scenario information included.

I approached Larry about his Pacific War AAR to see if he needed an opponent. By the time I had purchased TOAW IV he had just locked in an opponent. Jut a well I can't really keep up with his pace. He was however willing to start a second game if I would do the AAR with occasional comments from him.

In the early days of TOAW III Larry had done a couple of CSV AARs with Curt the scenario developer. In addition he had attempted to start a CSV AAR shorty before beta testing for TOAW IV kicked off. Certain AA or air-to-air issues led him to break it off.

Since he is experienced with the scenario and know he was interested. I suggested a new CSV AAR.

I was willing to play either side but he essentially let me choose the side and the scenario. So it i only fair that he get to select between the house rules and options that the designer has suggested for the game.

I'm about to send Larry my email address. We will both comment in this thread but I will slowly extend the post so that our posts will run 6-12 months (turns) behind our actual game play.

< Message edited by Narses -- 12/23/2017 2:39:16 AM >
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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/18/2017 10:46:27 AM   
larryfulkerson


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So the rhumors are true.....there really is a CSV AAR. Cool. William
doesn't have a chance to win. My NVA guys are ruthless. They know how
to live off the land and survive. They know how to shoot and they know
how to disappear into the Jungle. It's not going to be pretty.

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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/18/2017 11:09:35 AM   
larryfulkerson


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Here's the map at game start:




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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/18/2017 11:19:00 AM   
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So I'm moving units and I've come to a Mig-15 group based at Hanoi and it's got enough range to reach anything in
South Vietnam except for the southernmost tip. I'm going to leave it in Hanoi for now. It's not the best dogfighter
the NVA has but it's respectable. It can take on the Spads ( A-1E's) or the A-37's. I was going to say that it's
an all-weather or night fighter but I'm not sure it is. They were pretty primitive.




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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/18/2017 11:25:29 AM   
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It turns out that I have a couple of units of VC in the south and I'm going to run wild with them busting bridges
and isolating the ARVN if possible.




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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/18/2017 11:32:12 AM   
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LOL

I don't think Larry remember but we played the scenario once in the early days of TOAW III with the out-of-box version of this scenario. I played the VC.

He was beating me like a redheaded stepchild. At the time Larry liked really high levels of interdiction with his US air force. He showed me how frustrating that can be for a VC player. I folded at about the one year mark. I learned and I won my next two games using the VC against other opponents. I did that by being ultra aggressive immediately and forcing automatic wins before the US could fully deploy their air (or convincing my opponents I would do so).

Of course the VC/NVA cannot launch nearly as strong of an early push in version 5 of this scenario. BUT the US air units are much more expensive to deploy. I have no clue as to the changes in the strengths and vulnerabilities of air units in TOAW. That i bound to be important in a Vietnam scenario.

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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/18/2017 11:32:46 AM   
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Here's a list of all the NVA units and as you can see most of them are AA emplacements for up and down the Ho Chi Minh
trail and in-country too I'm thinking. And there's only the two VC Bn's operating in the south busting bridges and
blocking roads. Converting hexes. They are busy little boys.




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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/20/2017 1:56:28 PM   
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Some of you may recognize these thoughts from my TOAW III AAR on the CSV scenario. My plans for the opening 6-12 months will be the same. Of course you have to be ready to react to enemy action.

Realize this post is about characteristics of the Campaign for South Vietnam scenario and my early plans. There is little or nothing about TOAW IV mechanics.

Keeping the Event Clock (EEV) low as long as possible is the paramount for the Free World Allies (FWA). Once it reaches 100 points all US units are withdrawn. There is little the FWA can do to subtract points except start withdrawing units. Bringing in US unit adds points to the EEV clock.

Most important goal for first year: Do not let the NLF reach 10 victory points. That moves up the EEV clock for US withdrawal by one point every two turns. It is the only way the NLF player can directly impact the withdrawal clock. It is imperative that they be held below 10 VP or be pushed back below that level right away.

Minimize the impact of the war on US public opinion by easing them into this thing. To do this delay crossing the 15 EEV threshold until turn 7-9. I know that waiting until turn seven will avoid the 1 point EEV cost for early commitment. That is a small victory right there. The withdrawal clock won’t start ticking until you reach 15 EEV or the NLF player gets 10 VP. An extra point is added to the clock every 5 turns for each 15 points in the EEV total. So at 75 EEV the clock is averaging at least a point a turn. The FWA will then have at most 25 turns before total US withdrawal unless he starts withdrawing US units. But as long as you can stay below 15 EEV point and 10 NFL VP the clock won't start ticking.


Short term plans.
Minimize the impact of the war on US public opinion by easing them into this thing. To do this delay crossing the 15 EEV threshold until turn 7-9. I know that waiting until turn seven will avoid the 1 point EEV cost for early commitment. That is a small victory right there. The withdrawal clock won’t start ticking until you reach 15 EEV or the NLF player gets 10 VP.


To stay under 15 EEV and hold the NLF in check I will bring on the following 14 EEV points worth of units.



First turn
3rd Marine Division 3 EEV: I mean it is a whole division of Marines. Their job will be to defend I Corps but until more troops can be brought in the 9th Regt will probably have to go to the II Corps.
13th Air Division 5 EEV: I take this instead of the 2nd AF because it has more capable and longer ranged aircraft, its bases receive higher levels of supply and the Thai airbases are immune from attack.
12th AVN 4 EEV: This is a new option. The MACV transport units are no longer free but you can choose when you get them. If they are going to cost me I am going to rush them. It also arrives with about seven companies of airmobile troops (2 squadrons and a troop). At least I get a few troops with this very expensive transport fleet of helicopters units. To get the helicopters into position to provide lift over all of South Vietnam some of these troops will be tied down garrisoning vulnerable heliports.

Second turn:173rd Airborne Bde 1 EEV: Another new option. The independent brigades and Artillery are divided and enter individually. This is a quality unit with a lot of airmobile troops.

Third Turn or later 1EEV: Another independent brigade according to need. Almost certainly it will be the 3/82nd Airborne. I will have limited troops on the map so being airmobile will probably be more important than firepower in my ground units at this stage.

This will give me a very mobile force and a good number of maneuver units but it has less airpower than other potential starts. If I place assets properly (and if Larry lets me) I should have the ability to provide lift almost anywhere needed by turn 3-4. Of course the force will be somewhat brittle in the face of prolonged casualties and could be lacking in the power to accomplish missions on occasion. I hope to offset this by limiting intercept missions and use more combat support missions until the US aircraft carriers become active on turn six or I decide to raise my commitment level and bring on the 2nd AF or the Marine air units with the Marine Amphibious Groups.

Regardless of whether you go for a rapid or slow buildup of US troops don’t commit units faster than your sealift can ship them from the US or the stacking at the ports will allow them to arrive on board. Only nine units can arrive at each arrival port in the US. Don’t speed up the EEV clock with units you can’t get into Vietnam yet. There are three entry ports for the US forces. The Marines all arrive at the northernmost port so it becomes a real bottleneck if you bring in more than one marine formation at a time. The computer also tends to bring in HQ and support elements first so you lose control of who arrives and when if you bring in units that use the same port. I’ll post more details and a port list for each formation in a later post. Of Course I never overcrowded my US ports with reinforcements. Well okay I never did it after the first couple of games.




< Message edited by Narses -- 11/20/2017 2:21:06 PM >

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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/20/2017 2:24:26 PM   
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Boy that took a lot of editing. If you last post before I fixed you saw that hash I made of copying, pasting and inserting new text.



< Message edited by Narses -- 11/20/2017 2:25:13 PM >

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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/20/2017 5:37:11 PM   
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When the US carrier arrive in 5-6 turns at least their air units will be at full strength.

I plan on having the 13th Air Division in the Thai air bases on the second turn. Unfortunately they arrive at between 25-50% strength. Only the propeller driven A-26s and the AD/A-1s receive any replacements at the start of the game. At least those prop plane have excellent ranges unlike the F-105s. Most of the other aircraft types will begin getting replacements in the next 5-10 turns. The AC-130s and the F-111 won't get any replacements for 4-5 years though and will be very vulnerable.






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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/20/2017 6:11:27 PM   
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IIRC there was a Rolling Thunder campaign to knock Hanoi out of the war. There and Haiphong both. Something like 500+ F-105's were lost before it was all said and done.

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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/20/2017 6:32:03 PM   
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My F-104s were designed as bomber interceptors. They are not that good at the CS ground support mission. They will primarily be used AS air superiority missions. They are better than the half dozen or so MiG-15s that Larry has available initially. They will be joined by the Navy's F8 Crusaders when they become active in the near future (they are on board and inactive at the moment).

The F-4 Phantoms I have are such good bombers that they will usually be on some kind of bombing mission. From the beginning however I will put some in air superiority just to be unpredictable or when MiG 17s, 19s, or 21s are present n any numbers.






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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/20/2017 6:42:50 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

IIRC there was a Rolling Thunder campaign to knock Hanoi out of the war. There and Haiphong both. Something like 500+ F-105's were lost before it was all said and done.


They got some use as "Wild Weasels" to attack air defense and SAM sites. In the early days the stand-off missiles didn't let them stand off far enough to keep those missions from being really risky.


< Message edited by Narses -- 11/20/2017 7:37:32 PM >

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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/22/2017 1:55:27 PM   
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New moves from Bill: And the news is that the war is heating up. I lost a VC batallion during Bill's turn and I'm
going to disband those VC Bn's that are in danger so everything is going relatively well. I saw Bill move some
light transport helicopters into the Saigon area and some of the 3rd Bn Marines landed in the south of S. Vietnam and
killed my VC Bn unit with some help of some ARVN DD's just off the coast. I'll have to see if I can find that attack
and post a report.






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< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 11/22/2017 1:56:08 PM >

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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/22/2017 1:58:03 PM   
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Bill's Diplomatic Message is truncating his sentences so it's hard to tell what he's saying. Maybe we can get him
to post it here below in plain text.




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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/22/2017 2:14:59 PM   
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One of my longer-ranged arty units ( RR arty ) had such a big range arc that he covered a lot of enemy positions and
supported a lot of attacks and has exhausted it's supply. It needs to rest now to gather some supply and refit.
And get a shipment of ammo from Corps. supply and get ready for next turn. Although, it's so low on supply I doubt
it's going to be ready next turn. Supply levels climb slowly.

EDIT: Ooops wrong thread. I need a nap.




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< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 11/22/2017 2:15:45 PM >

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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/23/2017 11:56:38 AM   
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New moves from Bill. This is the news for turn four. And I've got reinforcements to process. The aircraft are down
for maint.; 9 Mig-15's in one squadron. That's the air fleet. Great. I'm hoping the reinforcements are NVA units
for operating in the DMZ area. We'll discover it together.




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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/23/2017 12:11:49 PM   
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Here's the recent reinforcements and it's got VC units and an NVA thing. I can publish this in the clear because I'm
going to move them and disband that one disabled unit with 1 MP. I can't think of a good use for that guy.




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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/23/2017 12:21:03 PM   
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I've just discovered that Bill has destroyed one of my AA units at Hanoi. I'll have to look that battle up in the
battles display to see what kind of planes were used etc.




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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/23/2017 12:24:40 PM   
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No battles are listed as having occurred so it must have happened in a previous turn. Maybe last turn.




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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/23/2017 12:30:47 PM   
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I see where I've lost one of my Mig-15's somehow. I don't remember any furballs so it might have happened during the
inter-turn processing.




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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/23/2017 12:35:46 PM   
larryfulkerson


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Maybe we can get Bill to post what the Diplomatic Message looks like on his end. That might be illuminating.




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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/24/2017 1:35:16 AM   
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Yes saw where you mentioned that in another thread. I'll try to keep that in mind.

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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/24/2017 2:00:22 AM   
larryfulkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Narses
Yes saw where you mentioned that in another thread. I'll try to keep that in mind.

No, I'm serious.....I really want to see what YOUR Diplomatic Pouch says. That stuff
I typed was supposed to be all on one line without any Carriage returns or enter key
stuff. I wanted to compare it with what I typed to see how long we can type sentences
for a while. Until there's a fix.

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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/24/2017 7:27:07 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Narses
Yes saw where you mentioned that in another thread. I'll try to keep that in mind.

No, I'm serious.....I really want to see what YOUR Diplomatic Pouch says. That stuff
I typed was supposed to be all on one line without any Carriage returns or enter key
stuff. I wanted to compare it with what I typed to see how long we can type sentences
for a while. Until there's a fix.


Interesting. I did use the enter key on some of my diplo pouches to separate thoughts.

I will try to remember to send any message twice (one below the other) in the next pouch. Once without shortening the line and once with shortened lines to make sure you get the full text.

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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/24/2017 7:51:56 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

I see where I've lost one of my Mig-15's somehow. I don't remember any furballs so it might have happened during the
inter-turn processing.





The loss of your fighter and the AA unit were the result of an interdiction airstrike. I also lost one aircraft (an F-105 iirc) either to AA fire or your fighters.

The interdiction strike by the air combat system targeted a Hanoi suburb. I'm just glad it did not cost me an EEV commitment point like a planned air attack would have.



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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/24/2017 8:17:59 AM   
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I'm not so sure it's a good idea to use the Air Assistant. To have the
Air Assistant "ON". Elmer's idea of a good mission might be to assign
your bombers to AS missions and things like that. I know it's
micro-management to have to hassle with your planes, all of them, each
turn. Maybe a comprimise......turn it on to get a rough draft of the
missions and then turn it off and review the missions it assigned and
change those questionable ones before you execute any. Yes?

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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/24/2017 10:54:22 AM   
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You are absolutely right. Using the air assistant is a horrible idea. I check every turn to make sure it is turned off. It like to make airfield attacks way to much.

I do manually place a lot of aircraft on interdiction missions. It was an interdiction strike that hit the AA unit. A direct attack launched by me or the Air Assistant against an AA unit would have suffered prohibitively high casualties. Given the low replacement rates and starting strengths of most US aircraft types (along with the what seems a high lethality setting for AA in this scenario) the US has to be very selective in making direct attacks against enemy units. when attacking infantry battalions directly with aircraft alone is a good way to trade high performance jet aircraft at close to one for one with infantry squads. Bombing AA units is out of the question.

Unfortunately in the current setting most bombings will occur with the game system selecting aircraft set to close support or interdiction missions. The losses will be more acceptable but you lose the ability to select your targets.

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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/25/2017 11:37:34 AM   
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As I recall in this scenario the F-105's don't have the range to reach Hanoi and Haiphong
or am I thinking of a previous version. Verify this for me will you Bill? And I used to
fly on AC-130E/H's and that the Spectre squadron doesn't get any replacements for years
is a drag. What if they all get shot down? No 16th SOS? What kind of world would that
be?

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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam Vs Larry - 11/25/2017 2:04:12 PM   
John B.


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This is very interesting and thank you for the effort of putting it all together. But, it seems to me just based on these posts that the air war is very fiddly and does not have much actual effect on the game. Am I reading it right?

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