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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/20/2017 10:31:37 PM   
warspite1


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Additional two supply sources that were obscured by units.




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(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 91
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/20/2017 10:44:20 PM   
warspite1


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Well that was a lot of words - although somewhat condensed from the manual - and what I hope is a logical order. However even having put to paper this summary I still don't feel I really understand the complexity - maths not being my strongpoint.....

For such technical points I really think a few worked examples could have been included in the manual.

For example: Although I now understand how supply gets to a unit and (subject to below, what blocks it) I still don't really understand the detail of the calculation for supply to any given unit. So for the Commonwealth the Supply Level starts at 40, but how does this number relate to the number in the supply marker and the Formation Supply Distribution Efficiency? Does anyone really know!?

In Post 83 there is a British unit seemingly cut off but it does not (from what I can tell) appear to be Unsupplied. Why is this?

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/20/2017 10:53:32 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 92
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/20/2017 11:52:58 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

For example: Although I now understand how supply gets to a unit and (subject to below, what blocks it) I still don't really understand the detail of the calculation for supply to any given unit. So for the Commonwealth the Supply Level starts at 40, but how does this number relate to the number in the supply marker and the Formation Supply Distribution Efficiency? Does anyone really know!?


9.1.7.3 in the manual explains supply lines under New Supply. The formula is shown as:

1.10 / (1.375 ^ (Supply Distance / Supply Radius))

And there is a plot that shows how that formula decays with distance.

The Formation Supply Distribution Efficiency factor is just a scalar applied to the final value.

quote:

In Post 83 there is a British unit seemingly cut off but it does not (from what I can tell) appear to be Unsupplied. Why is this?


Because it is not cut off. It still has a line-of-communication. (A very long line-of-communication, but it has one).

Only impassable terrain, enemy units, or enemy ZOCs block lines-of-communication. Friendly units cancel enemy ZOC they occupy.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 93
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/21/2017 5:27:28 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

In Post 83 there is a British unit seemingly cut off but it does not (from what I can tell) appear to be Unsupplied. Why is this?


Because it is not cut off. It still has a line-of-communication. (A very long line-of-communication, but it has one).

Only impassable terrain, enemy units, or enemy ZOCs block lines-of-communication. Friendly units cancel enemy ZOC they occupy.
warspite1

Thanks. Mmmm - a classic case of reading something (LoC) but then seeing what I think intuitively is the case and so overriding what I've read!

Looking at the picture below, that unit has to be cut off - but reading LoC again then I can see (if not entirely understand the rationale) of why it isn't.

I searched Zone of Control and ZoC in the manual and the documentation and there were no examples of the former and 7 of the latter - none of these seemed to tell me what the definition of a Zone of Control is in the manual, while neither term appears in the documentation.

Lines of Communication (LoC): An LoC is a path from one location to another. LoC are blocked by enemy units, non-Road Badlands terrain, non-Road Dunes terrain, or terrain that cannot be entered by a normal Land unit. A unit without an LoC is marked as Unsupplied (Note the manual states the marker is black, but it appears to be orange and black in a circle - see post 143).

Possession: Flags – Territorial ownership is indicated on the Map by national flags

So I was thinking Possession = Control and therefore this unit is cut-off.


What is the Zone of Control of a unit?



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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/25/2017 5:43:55 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 94
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/21/2017 5:49:18 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

For example: Although I now understand how supply gets to a unit and (subject to below, what blocks it) I still don't really understand the detail of the calculation for supply to any given unit. So for the Commonwealth the Supply Level starts at 40, but how does this number relate to the number in the supply marker and the Formation Supply Distribution Efficiency? Does anyone really know!?


9.1.7.3 in the manual explains supply lines under New Supply. The formula is shown as:

1.10 / (1.375 ^ (Supply Distance / Supply Radius))

And there is a plot that shows how that formula decays with distance.

The Formation Supply Distribution Efficiency factor is just a scalar applied to the final value.

warspite1

Right so this is too hurried reading of the manual and/or trying to read from a screen. I'd read the supply section and then ignored anything beyond 9.1.7.2 Old Supply Rules as I'd stupidly assumed that was it.

I hope this supply section of the AAR is helpful to people, although having seen the explanation in 9.1.7.3 and noted the formula, I think that this is something I personally will probably need to gloss over. It will be a case of understanding the general concept but no more. That formula sadly is way above my pay grade. As I say, it would be nice if, in the manual they produced a worked example for so complicated (to me at least) a formula.

I did wonder why some units on the road and next to a supply unit were not back at 100% supply. The following extract from 9.1.7.3 seems to be the reason why:

Note that this will mean that very dense locations will likely suffer some supply reduction due to added movement costs of that density condition (stacking limits, however, will not block supply).


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/21/2017 5:50:00 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 95
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/21/2017 9:41:31 AM   
Olorin


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In practical terms, your units on the improved road along the coast will resupply by about 10 points each turn.
Hex supply up there is ~25, the Formation Supply is generally ~60%, if a unit has moved in the previous turn its resupply is reduced by 33%. So:

25*0.6*0.67 = 10

If a unit has a friendly HQ adjacent to it, it will receive a resupply bonus of 50%. Plus, if it hasn't moved in the previous turn it will receive:
25*0.6*1.5 = 22

I think.



< Message edited by Olorin -- 11/21/2017 9:42:59 AM >


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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/21/2017 11:30:36 AM   
loki100


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as ever your AARs are a great read and very informative.

Does add to my long held suspicion that TOAW (in all its incarnations) is a bit of a marmite game in terms of how people respond to it.

To me, all this just seems a too complex way of doing something, what ought to be clear in the manual/players notes etc is roughly 'here are the supply dynamics and problems' and 'here are the tools you have to mitigate the situation'.



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Post #: 97
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/21/2017 2:27:48 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So I was thinking Possession = Control and therefore this unit is cut-off.


A common misunderstanding of new TOAW players. Possession does NOT block Lines of Communication. And that's critical to know if you want to cut off enemy units.


quote:

What is the Zone of Control of a unit?


I guess the game doesn't use that term, but it's a common wargame term and should be familiar. The six hexes adjacent to an enemy unit block friendly Lines of Communication unless canceled by friendly units in them. (Some units don't exert them, though - air units and naval units, for example).

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 11/21/2017 2:36:50 PM >


_____________________________

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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 98
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/21/2017 2:33:19 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I hope this supply section of the AAR is helpful to people, although having seen the explanation in 9.1.7.3 and noted the formula, I think that this is something I personally will probably need to gloss over. It will be a case of understanding the general concept but no more. That formula sadly is way above my pay grade. As I say, it would be nice if, in the manual they produced a worked example for so complicated (to me at least) a formula.


You don't really need to understand the formula. You just need to understand that supply attenuates exponentially with distance from the supply source - scaled by the supply radius. The plot that was provided should have been helpful in that regard.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 99
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/21/2017 7:14:57 PM   
warspite1


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Turn 2
14th December 1940


The first thing necessary to send the Mediterranean Fleet back to port. Supply is almost exhausted (as can be seen from this screen shot of HMS Valiant).

I have searched 'naval' and 'port' in the manual but cannot see if there is any special setting required for while units are in port to ensure supply is maximised. I have only Mobile, Local Reserve or Tactical Reserve to choose from - none of which intuitively feel right for a unit sitting in port seeking re-supply. Have I missed something obvious again?




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/21/2017 7:17:27 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 100
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/21/2017 7:20:16 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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Naval units don't need to return to port to receive resupply. They are resupplied at sea.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 101
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/21/2017 7:20:45 PM   
warspite1


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Turn 2 - Phase I
14th December 1940


In the south Lt-General O'Connor implores Major-General "Dickie" Creagh to inject some urgency into the 7th Armoured Division's push northwest.

The attack gets underway as the 11th Hussars battalion push back a battalion of CCNN infantry marching south. The 7th Hussars then sandwich another Italian battalion from behind. Behind them the 2nd Rifle Brigade push aside a regiment of the Cirene Division. Guarding the rear of the division's front, the 1st Battalion of the King's Royal Rifle Corps retakes safafi, and in the process pushes back units of the 2nd CCNN Division in disarray.

Meanwhile the Australian Cavalry continue their astonishing progress ahead of Creagh's division. They brush aside a weak Italian unit and take the airfield at Sidi Omar.


These attacks have been completed with no need for planning (and so I assume 1 dot only)



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/21/2017 8:15:44 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 102
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/21/2017 7:24:13 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Naval units don't need to return to port to receive resupply. They are resupplied at sea.
warspite1

What using that well known RFA Fleet Train?

Okay thanks. I will remember that in future. But in the meantime they can enjoy a spot of R+R amongst the flesh pots of downtown...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Cwyq3XWeHE


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 103
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/21/2017 7:26:28 PM   
larrybush


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Warspite this is a very well done scenario, the new graphics make the map look great! I might play it again!

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 104
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/21/2017 7:36:57 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: larrybush

Warspite this is a very well done scenario, the new graphics make the map look great! I might play it again!
warspite1

Yes I agree about the scenario (although the naval units chosen are a little sloppy). As you can see I am hopelessly at sea here - many concepts are new to me - but its so good to be able to play something different - and I have been gagging for a Med War 1940 scenario for so long. It's great to command such units once again! And the support from the community has been so good too


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 105
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/21/2017 7:53:01 PM   
marion61

 

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I took my ships back to port too when they were low on supply. I'm not sure what surface units the Italians have, but I sent the fleet back to Alexandria area so that I wouldn't get caught out there with my britches down, so to speak.

When they are green again, they'll be ready to help at Tobruk.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 106
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/21/2017 7:57:53 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marion61

I took my ships back to port too when they were low on supply. I'm not sure what surface units the Italians have, but I sent the fleet back to Alexandria area so that I wouldn't get caught out there with my britches down, so to speak.

When they are green again, they'll be ready to help at Tobruk.
warspite1

Good God sir! Are you ill? Admiral 'ABC' Cunningham is itching for a fight! The Regia Marina? Bring them on sir, they welcome an attack. The 15-inchers of Valiant and Barham are bristling with anticipation


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to marion61)
Post #: 107
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/21/2017 8:19:40 PM   
warspite1


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Turn 2 - Phase II
14th December 1940


The next round of attacks will hopefully see the 7th Armoured make further in-roads into the Cirene Division and those that came to their aid.

But first its back to the coastal plain and the stubborn Italian resistance around Sidi Barani, and to the west the units in and around Buq Buq.

Elements of the 4th Indian Infantry Division have moved north along the coast to take Solum. This means less attacking possibilities around Buq Buq but O'Connor figures that this will lessen the possibility of reinforcements heading south as quickly.


I've found the crossed swords - so I don't have to ring the planned attacks anymore - instead they are nicely highlighted!



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/21/2017 8:38:51 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 108
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/21/2017 8:50:32 PM   
warspite1


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Turn 2 - Phase II
14th December 1940


That wasn't too bad I don't think. The attack by the 7th Hussars and the Brigade HQ against the 2nd CCNN Division artillery to the west was a bit of a flop - although British losses were not disastrous.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/21/2017 8:55:36 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 109
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/21/2017 9:00:56 PM   
warspite1


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Turn 2 - Phase II (cont)
14th December 1940


The only other reverse was south of the coastal road where, despite RAF support from Blenheim bombers, the Italian corps artillery inflicted more losses than it took in holding off three battalions of the 70th Infantry.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/21/2017 9:05:45 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 110
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/21/2017 9:28:30 PM   
warspite1


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Turn 2 - Phase III
14th December 1940


Just 6 battles planned here, one of which is a little risky - but Creagh needs his 7th Armoured to smash the main enemy force southwest of Sofafi.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/21/2017 9:29:01 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 111
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/21/2017 9:49:43 PM   
warspite1


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Hex Issues?

I cannot move into the hexes marked with a red cross - or attack the Italian unit with the red cross. I cannot move into the hexes marked with a red circle.

The red circled hexes are described as Badlands (isn't that in one of the Dakotas?) and the other hexes are dunes.

The manual indicates no motorised movement but does not indicate these are impassable - if they were how come about 9 or 10 Italian units occupy one hex. Could this be a bug?




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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/21/2017 10:07:03 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 112
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/21/2017 9:53:56 PM   
marion61

 

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Not a bug. You have one foot unit, I believe attached to the 70th Inf Div+ that can enter those hexes and attack. You just can't use mobile units or motorized in there. The Italian units are foot units so they can move in those hexes. It's the 11th Czech+ of the 70th Inf Div that can move in there. I had the same problem, then I figured it out. I waited a turn to let those units in the dunes be un-supplied a turn before I used the 11th Czech to attack them. Made mopping them up easier.

< Message edited by marion61 -- 11/21/2017 9:56:17 PM >

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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/21/2017 9:57:47 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marion61

Not a bug. You have one foot unit, I believe attached to the 70th Inf Div+ that can enter those hexes and attack. You just can't use mobile units or motorized in there. The Italian units are foot units so they can move in those hexes. It's the 11th Czech+ of the 70th Inf Div that can move in there. I had the same problem, then I figured it out. I waited a turn to let those units in the dunes be un-supplied a turn before I used the 11th Czech to attack them. Made mopping them up easier.
warspite1

But if the Italians have a ton of units and I can't attack - except with two units - how would I ever destroy the Italians in those hexes?


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 114
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/21/2017 10:01:28 PM   
marion61

 

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I actually pounded them with artillery the turn they retreated in there, then the next turn I moved the 11th in and with arty support killed them off. They were un-supplied when the 11th attacked them and they didn't last long. Once they are un-supplied they are easy to kill off.

< Message edited by marion61 -- 11/21/2017 10:02:16 PM >

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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/21/2017 10:02:58 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marion61

I actually pounded them with artillery the turn they retreated in there, then the next turn I moved the 11th in and with arty support killed them off. They were un-supplied when the 11th attacked them and they didn't last long. Once they are un-supplied they are easy to kill off.
warspite1

Okay thanks - good job its not a bug .


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to marion61)
Post #: 116
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/22/2017 1:58:41 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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The 2nd New Zealand Division is also foot. It releases on turn 9.

_____________________________

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Bob Cross's TOAW Site

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Post #: 117
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/22/2017 5:32:29 AM   
warspite1


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Turn 2 - Phase III - 7th Armoured Division
14th December 1940


So lets look at the situation in a little more detail following the third round of attacks. The attacks were generally successful although there were a couple of attacks that could have gone better.

On 7th Armoured's front there has been some real progress in terms of inflicting heavy reverses on the formations that Marshal Graziani has brought in to reinforce the front. The Marmarica and 2nd CCNN divisions have been badly mauled. Elements of the Cirene Division however continue to stubbornly hold their ground.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/22/2017 5:37:19 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 118
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/22/2017 5:42:20 AM   
warspite1


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Turn 2 - Phase III - 7th Armoured Division
14th December 1940


Let's look a little closer at one of the battle's. This battle involved:

Battle of El Hamra

Italian OOB
Marmarcia Division
115th Infantry Regiment HQ
1st Bn, 115th Regiment

Cirene Division
158th Infantry Regiment HQ
1st Bn, 158th Regiment
2nd Bn, 158th Regiment
3rd Bn, 158th Regiment

44th Artillery provides support to the defenders of the fort.

Commonwealth OOB
7th Armoured Division
4th Armoured Brigade HQ
1st Royal Tank Regiment
3rd Hussars Regiment
8th Hussars Regiment
3rd Royal Horse Artillery

202 Group Royal Air Force
3rd Sqn RAAF (Hurricanes)*
45th Sqn RAF (Blenheims)
Free French contingent (Moranes)

* As with some of the Royal Navy ships - and even army formations, I don't think this is correct. At the time of Compass I thought the RAAF had Gladiators but I may be wrong.

The Combat Chart below seems pretty straightforward, with a nice legend available for understanding the lettering. This shows that the battle started in Round III (or Phase III as I call it before I realised). No further explanation required for this (see above). I did the early battles with units that were high in movement allowance and didn't need to move or move much. For this third phase, the battles started in rounds 3 (and 1 miscalculation on my part in round 4) reflecting the movement required and or movement allowance remaining - or as the manual states far more elegantly:

Each player Turn is divided into ten Tactical Rounds, and individual battles begin on the Round that most closely corresponds to the proportion of the attacking units’ Movement Allowance expended before the combat. Example: A unit with a remaining Movement Allowance of 12 and an initial Movement Allowance of 18 begins its Attack on Round 3.

The battle only lasted one round before the British units broke off, four of the Italian units retreated but two held their ground.

After each Round, all involved units check for “break off ”. The chance that a unit will break off depends on losses, Orders emphasis, coordination difficulty, and the duration of the individual Attack. Attacking units that break off simply cease their participation in the Attack. Defending units that break off attempt to disengage and retreat.

At the end of each combat round, units that have not dropped out of the attack or retreated from the defence will be used to determine the current Assault Strength Ratio. This ratio is then further modified by terrain and deployment scalars of the defender’s position appropriate to the equipment types in that defence.

This final ratio then scales the quality of each defender for purposes of Retreat from Combat (RFC). So, the higher the ratio, the greater the chance of RFC, and vice-versa. Units set to Minimise or Limit Losses must face further tests due to any losses they suffered.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/22/2017 4:30:10 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 119
RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/22/2017 2:02:43 PM   
John B.


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This is a very interesting AAR. Thanks for wading through some of these issues so that we can see in real time how things are supposed to work without trying to figure it out on our own.

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