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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/18/2017 8:59:38 PM   
warspite1


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The fun bit. The units. The first two buttons allow one to scroll through the units - which is good.

The 3rd button brings up the Unit Report. Lets have a look at a tank unit first.

So here we have the 3rd King's Own Hussars, a tank regiment of the 7th Armoured Division (this unit was part of the 7th Armoured Brigade but I can't see that this game uses the brigade).

Even at this level there seems to be a wealth of information to drill down into.



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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/18/2017 9:06:07 PM >


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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/18/2017 9:07:00 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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One thing you're going to want to address: You have possession turned off. On the Button Panel, Map Tab, third row, third column, click till possession is shown with borders.

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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/18/2017 9:23:35 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

One thing you're going to want to address: You have possession turned off. On the Button Panel, Map Tab, third row, third column, click till possession is shown with borders.
warspite1

Ah yes. I think I had this originally as it was a default setting, but then I lost it when trying out the buttons. Thank-you.




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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/18/2017 9:24:52 PM >


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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/18/2017 9:28:37 PM   
warspite1


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Back to the units: I click on the third button from the right "Display Current Force" and get the units of the 7th Armoured Division. So how does this game measure up historically?

So there is the Divisional HQ
The HQ of the two Armoured Brigades - 4th and 7th + the Support Group
The regiments and battalions are all there. The only thing is, the 6th RTR is showing as part of the 2nd Armoured Division - not sure why that is. But the main units are all here




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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/18/2017 9:43:18 PM >


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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 7:15:40 AM   
warspite1


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Right so lets see if I can make sense of the big picture so I can actually get the game started.

The Italian units look reasonably historically accurate . The British Army units less so, and the Royal Navy units are in some cases, disappointingly silly . Never mind.

So, how to attack?




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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/19/2017 7:33:23 AM >


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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 7:49:31 AM   
warspite1


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I've no real idea what I'm doing so this will just be a case of trial and error. I think the example of DC:Barbarossa should be the benchmark for providing quick, punchy, bite-sized tutorials for getting players into the game straightaway. But it is what it is and a look at the manual doesn't help overly so lets just get stuck in.

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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 8:04:47 AM   
warspite1


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Turn 1
11th December 1940


I want to deal with the Libyan units at the two Camps - Tummar West and East.




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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/19/2017 8:06:19 AM >


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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 9:17:45 AM   
warspite1


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Okay I appear to be struggling with this. Can anyone assist please?

I just ordered - and executed - two bombardments from the RN against one of the Italian camps (and that is all I have done). In so doing I just lost 30% of my turn?

Also what is the best way to approach an attack? I have used half a dozen units (including tanks) against an Italian Brigade and am being told I have only a fair chance of success- that's a lot of units for not a lot in return!

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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 9:44:04 AM   
RufusTFirefly

 

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Good morning, Warspite1,
(in Germany I am nearly at same time zone)

had already been curious to see how you manage the combat time stamp. Have to admit that I did not fully understand how it works. Same with supply level indicators. I am a chemist holding a PhD (is "holding" the correct term?). So I think I might be able to understand even some more complex things. But time stamps of movement and combat seem to be difficult to understand.

Can only provide some ideas. The air attack you have launched has taken some time. Obviously 30% of the total time of this turn. Not moving units before the attack means, these units are waiting/resting til the air stirke is done.

Have started the first African campaign in the list: the Rommel offensive. First I moved my units and planned attacks. It is important not to move units too far. Their movement takes time. So just like your air strike it would use up a lot of available time stamps wand any combat ordered to perform would start late and have not much time left for performance.

But still some details are confusing. I moved all units using about a third of their movement points and planned some battles. Then I ordered the battles to be performed. Battle reports then show when battle started and how long they took. Some started at time stamp 4 lasted 2 time stamps and therefore ended at time stamp 5. All movements now continue at time stamp 5 as far as I understood. But: One battle started at time stamp 7 lasting for 4 time stamps. So it should end at time stamp 10 of 10 time stamps available. Turn should be over then and all left movement points of my units should be lost. Maybe I can continue at time stamp 5 but this single battle is still running?

Can you add a screenshot of the battle report of your bomb raid, please?

< Message edited by RufusTFirefly -- 11/19/2017 9:54:13 AM >

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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 10:12:45 AM   
warspite1


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Hi RTF

It was a naval bombardment not airborne. Here are the results. The ships did not move closer to the coast (or anywhere else). The first three dots on the unit box are now greyed out.

I looked at the tutorials and all I can say is that, whilst I appreciate the effort, these are just so frustrating. To newcomers of the game these things - timestamps and the like - are really baffling. There is NO point making a tutorial to explain something so complicated, if you are then going to speak at 100 miles an hour and speed through it.

So now I've undertaken these bombardments first. Does this mean that any attack now begins from round 4?

To try and get a handle on this I looked at the AI doing the British first turn. The AI was moving units all over the place i.e. long distances - but still was able to complete 20 or so? attacks during the turn.






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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 10:18:38 AM   
Olorin


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When you press the "resolve battles" button, all your planned combats are executed and after that a median "time spent" is determined. In your case that was 30% of your turn, i.e. one day. Which means that ALL your units movement points are halved by 30%.

What you should do is move whatever units you want to move BEFORE your battles are resolved so that the time that is spent in battle does not affect the movement of units that didn't participate in combat.

Example 1:

You have two units, 1st and 2nd Armoured Divisions, each having 30 movement points.
Let's say you want the 1st to engage the enemy and the 2nd to exploit a gap.
Let's also say that you predict 30% of your turn to be consumed by the 1st ArmDiv attack.

If you don't move the 2nd ArmDiv before the battle is resolved, you will have thrown away 30% of its movement, i.e it will have 20 movement points after the battle is resolved but it won't have advanced a single hex..

If on the other hand you spend 10 movement points to advance the 2nd ArmDiv BEFORE the battles is resolved, it will end up again with 20 movement points, but in this case it will have advanced past the enemy.


Example 2:

The 1st Armoured Div is in direct contact with the enemy and can attack immediately.
The 2nd Armoured Division has 30 movement points and is 20 hexes away from the enemy. To attack, it needs to spend 20 movement points, i.e. 60%.

If you attack simultaneously, you will spend 60% of your turn (2 days), because that's the time it took for the 2AD to move into position.

You should resolve the 1AD attack first and when you spend 60% of your turn, THEN you engage the 2AD.

I hope this makes sense.

< Message edited by Olorin -- 11/19/2017 10:24:34 AM >


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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 10:22:23 AM   
warspite1


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Thanks Olorin. So if I have a third unit not involved in this attack at all, it still suffers the penalty? and that as soon as I start any battle, the clock starts ticking for all units?

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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 10:25:44 AM   
Olorin


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Yes, all units lose MPs.
(Pls see edited post above for example2)

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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 10:27:11 AM   
RufusTFirefly

 

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Hi Warspite1,

it is the second bombardment. It started at round (easier than using the expression "time stamp") and lasted for 3 rounds. So round 1 to 3 are used up, therefroe three dots are greyed out, seven dots should be left and be displayed in yellow.

Here is what I will try in my game:
I will move all units that should not attack but only move (rear units on their way to front or recon moving where I expect no enemy contact) for half of their available movement points. All units committed for attack I will try to move in position not using up more than a third of available movement points. Then I will plan attacks and execute them. I hope attacks will not use more than two rounds. After battle hopefully all units will now have used 5 of 10 rounds: some used 5 rounds for movement, some used 3 rounds for movement and 2 rounds for combat. If so, 50% of my turn should still be available.

Of course it is not absolutely sure that combat will last for two rounds only. Attack planner shows the estimated rounds for combat (the dots somewhere in the upper part of the attack planner window), but this is only a calculation of what is expected. If enemy units are set on defend with losses ignored they will fight til the bitter end and not retreat. Battle might last longer and the turn might continue soemwhat later.

Lets hope that we will get a clue together!

Edit: It worked well in my first turn. Had been able to fight some battles and move rear units close to front. Will continue now at turn 2 and hopefully it works well again. Next problem will be to understand supply rules in order not to see any unit break down in the desert with no fuel left.

2nd Edit: Just read the posts of Olorin. Thanks for that. Greetings to Greece. Had been there two month ago on holidays. Had been my first time at Greece. Nice people and a beautiful country.

< Message edited by RufusTFirefly -- 11/19/2017 10:36:08 AM >

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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 10:33:13 AM   
Olorin


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For arty/naval/air bombardments only:

The Loss Tolerance setting determines how many rounds are spent (most of the time).
Minimal Losses spends 1 round.
Limited Losses spends 2 rounds.
Ignore Losses spends 3 rounds.

p.s. Hey RufusTFirefly, greetings to Germany, I've never been there, but my brother has recently moved to Berlin and I might get a chance to visit your capital soon.

< Message edited by Olorin -- 11/19/2017 10:56:03 AM >


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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 10:49:38 AM   
warspite1


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Olorin/RTF

Thanks guys. I will do some dummy moves and see if this has penetrated my thick skull sufficiently.

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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 11:07:57 AM   
Franciscus


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Hi

Having some trouble also understanding and putting in practice the time concepts of this...

I think the first post in this thread http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4274372
by Bob Cross is a must read...

Not having played the previous versions of TOAW (except briefly the very first) I can’t shake the feeling that all this is overcomplicated. Classic IGOUGO has its limitations but works and can be elegantly implemented... (DCB comes immediately to mind...)

Cheers

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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 11:22:15 AM   
warspite1


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Thank-you Franciscus - I will have a read

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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 2:58:52 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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It may take more reading than that, unfortunately.

For a really detailed example, I always refer new players to this thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1546619

It's a detailed discussion of the opening Allied player-turn of my "France 1944 D-Day" scenario. Alas, it's several years old, so some of it is now obsolete (it's pre-Battlefield Timestamp and even pre-Assault Ratio Rules). But it does show quite a bit about how players should think when planning attacks.

One of these days I need to make a new version with up-to-date rules, but that's not around yet.

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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 3:14:06 PM   
MagicMissile


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: budd

Always appreciate your going in cold AAR's, thanks for the effort.
warspite1

Thank-you



I like them too. Bought the game as well and have started dabbling a little bit but I really like it so far.

Good luck!

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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 3:42:31 PM   
marion61

 

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I started the same campaign so that maybe you can see how I set my turns up. Initially I move the units that will travel only a hex or two to conduct the first round of attacks that I want, and then I use the planner to make sure that they are only going to use one round. After I set my attacks, but before I execute any, I move my other forces that I want to use in later rounds, and to put in some blocking forces. Down in the southeast of the map there are two stacks that I don't move because I need to move that Italian armor unit off the crossroad so that I don't have to pay a ZOC movement penalty. I have my planned battles tagged on the map.




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< Message edited by marion61 -- 11/19/2017 3:44:26 PM >

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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 3:46:39 PM   
marion61

 

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This is just an example of a battle I have planned, and as you can see I'm using the naval firepower as arty, instead of just bombarding the hex. The planner shows that this will only take one round to execute.




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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 3:52:19 PM   
marion61

 

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These are the results of all those battles, and even tho the Italians didn't retreat in a few of them, they took some heavy casualties for it, and I still have 90% of my turn left. My main objective was to pinch off the Italians in the center, and to open the crossroads in the SW so that my units could cut the main road along the coast. The main thing is to think small movements and to plan your attacks for several rounds ahead. You don't always get the results you want, but no plan ever works flawlessly. Use the battle planner, as it tells you how long a combat will last, and you can also estimate it by how much movement allowance is left on a unit your using to attack with. I hope this helps.




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< Message edited by marion61 -- 11/19/2017 3:54:59 PM >

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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 3:56:20 PM   
Olorin


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The Combat Planner is often pessimistic about losses and probability of success. I ignore its predictions as long as the other factors seem ok to me.

In this case you have a 3,3:1 advantage, so I 'd go ahead with the attack.

One minus for you is that the level of Cooperation between the RN and your infantry is poor, which might cause more rounds to be spent, depending on die rolls.

But since the Italian units are of very poor quality, my guess is an easy victory with minimal losses.

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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 4:25:59 PM   
warspite1


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Thanks everyone for chipping in. A question re marion61's post 53.

Why are the rounds not in order - it goes:

Combat 1 and 3 were in round 2, while 2 and 4 were in round 1. How can that be? Did the units fighting in combats 1 and 3 take longer to reach the battle hex?

What is a round? E.g. if I plan for two attacks (and click the button for them to be executed). Is THAT a round? Would the next attack be another round?

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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 4:41:24 PM   
warspite1


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Turn 1
11th December 1940


I guess ultimately I am not going to understand this without getting my hands dirty and ploughing in.

The start positions remain the same (as per below) but instead of looking at individual targets in detail, its clear I need to take more of an overview approach.

I will switch the display so that the movement allowance is showing and that hopefully will allow me to keep tack of who is doing what.

Objectives:
Sidi Barani has to be a key one as the main coast road must be good for supply. Buq Buq would be good also but may be asking too much.

To the southwest, the Cirene Division are on a road and are blocking the way to an airfield that it would be useful to capture.





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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 11/19/2017 4:42:47 PM >


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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 4:55:26 PM   
marion61

 

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Yes. Those two combats had units that moved a little further, but since most of my combats only took one round, it averaged out to me just using one round altogether. It takes the median value of all combats, which in this case is one round even tho two combats lasted longer. For that one round I had 8 combats total.

You can have as many combats in a round as you want, but if a combat takes longer to execute, then the median value will go up. So the farther a unit has to move to attack or join an attack, the more rounds it may take for that combat to execute when you do hit the execute button. Also unit cooperation can increase the rounds it takes due to the complexity of the attack. That's why using the planner is so helpful, as it shows how many rounds a combat will take and shows the units cooperation levels.

1 round is 1/10 of a turn. So if the turn is one day long, one round is 2.4 hours. Each time you hit the execute attacks button, you will use x amount of rounds, depending on what the median value is. So don't hit the execute button until your sure about your attacks.

< Message edited by marion61 -- 11/19/2017 4:59:56 PM >

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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 5:09:18 PM   
elxaime

 

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This is helpful, thanks for this AAR. I am also a newcomer to TOAW, although an experienced wargamer. I have to admit this seems very daunting. But tell me if I have this correct, based on the helpful posts above:

STANDARD APPROACH TO A TURN

1. Move units not intended to be in combat (rear area, recon that won't be attacking)
2. Move units intended for attacks into contact; try not to exceed more than 1/3 of their movement to get into contact
3. For units that have not moved which are capable of land bombardment, naval bombardment, air missions - execute those as they are unlikely to use up more than 1/3 of the time stamp; do not use assets that needed to move a significant distance to get into range/rebase as these may use up more time; save these for the second wave attacks
4. Plan and execute first wave of attacks from units you moved to contact in #2
5. Based on the time stamp after the first wave of attacks have run, you should be able to repeat the process to use up the remaining time for exploitation movement/attacks; during these "second wave" movement attacks you can use bombardment/airstrike assets from units that moved in #1, but were held back so as to leave the timestamp as low as possible at the start of #5

Am I getting there? A checklist like this has probably been done by someone and would be very helpful. This was just my take and may not be accurate.

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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 5:12:52 PM   
budd


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Your not alone in trying to grasp this concept Warspite. My question is since he didn't move the ships at all and just fired, what factors determined that one bombardment going longer? because it was a couple of hexes farther?

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RE: Campaign For North Africa 40D-43 - 11/19/2017 5:23:12 PM   
Olorin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: elxaime

This is helpful, thanks for this AAR. I am also a newcomer to TOAW, although an experienced wargamer. I have to admit this seems very daunting. But tell me if I have this correct, based on the helpful posts above:

STANDARD APPROACH TO A TURN

1. Move units not intended to be in combat (rear area, recon that won't be attacking)
2. Move units intended for attacks into contact; try not to exceed more than 1/3 of their movement to get into contact
3. For units that have not moved which are capable of land bombardment, naval bombardment, air missions - execute those as they are unlikely to use up more than 1/3 of the time stamp; do not use assets that needed to move a significant distance to get into range/rebase as these may use up more time; save these for the second wave attacks
4. Plan and execute first wave of attacks from units you moved to contact in #2
5. Based on the time stamp after the first wave of attacks have run, you should be able to repeat the process to use up the remaining time for exploitation movement/attacks; during these "second wave" movement attacks you can use bombardment/airstrike assets from units that moved in #1, but were held back so as to leave the timestamp as low as possible at the start of #5

Am I getting there? A checklist like this has probably been done by someone and would be very helpful. This was just my take and may not be accurate.


That's good starting point for a beginner.

Once you get the hang of it, the system will feel pretty intuitive, but getting there requires some practice first.

These are old, but still useful guides:
http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/docs/strategy/McBride-ten-tactical-rounds.php
http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/docs/strategy/Brown-ten-tactical-rounds.php

< Message edited by Olorin -- 11/19/2017 5:37:47 PM >


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