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RE: Mountain Division - 11/19/2017 12:22:06 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Very nice save of the Mountain Division, along with the Armor that was there too ;-). Mr Stalin has taken that commander of that front off the kill list, for now........ ;-P. I do see 3 "good" divisions (the 2 attack value with experienced squads) going to be working on the German railroad soon.

From the telegram of Stalin to Khrushchev(member of military counsil of the SW front)

"The reliable information has been received that you all are panic-stricken from the Commander of the South-Western Front to the members of the Military Council and intend to divert troops to the left bank of the Dnieper.
I warn you that if you take at least one step in the direction of withdrawing troops to the left bank of the Dnieper, you will not be up to the last opportunity to defend the areas of the F.R.s on the right bank of the Dnieper, you will all suffer a cruel punishment like cowards and deserters ".

=)

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Post #: 61
GT 5 - 11/19/2017 12:34:32 PM   
Grognard1812


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Soviet GT 5

Recon flights showed a suspicious accumulation of panzer units just west of Smolensk - could indicate a HQBuildUp.
Not taking any chances, the Soviet units retreated setting up a new defensive position behind the Dnepr to avoid
a possible pocket attempt by the panzers. The best defensive lines are behind rivers and having 2 units in
each hex is ideal, this makes it difficult for the panzer units to attack across and have to go around the flanks
which burns up their movement points.






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Post #: 62
RE: GT 5 - 11/19/2017 1:05:47 PM   
Zecke


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard1812

Soviet GT 5

Recon flights showed a suspicious accumulation of panzer units just west of Smolensk - could indicate a HQBuildUp.
Not taking any chances, the Soviet units retreated setting up a new defensive position behind the Dnepr to avoid
a possible pocket attempt by the panzers. The best defensive lines are behind rivers and having 2 units in
each hex is ideal, this makes it difficult for the panzer units to attack across and have to go around the flanks
which burns up their movement points.







great attack and great defense; if russia let him enter; if German stop at smolenks.

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Post #: 63
RE: GT 5 - 11/19/2017 2:59:39 PM   
tyronec


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quote:

The Mountain Division's escape path was blocked by the German Mot Regiment located 2 hexes Northwest of it.
An attack by 3 Soviet Divisions forced the Mot Regiment to retreat allowing the Mountain Division to
escape over the Dnepr river, able to fight another day. It is under one of the stacks on the North side of the
river. This Soviet attack was the only one out of 4 that succeeded, as the others were against Divisional
sized Axis units which failed.


Good going extracting the Mountain Div, your cavalry did the job of stopping me from making a much better pocket. I could still have blocked the cavalry if I had used my reserve pz corps to cover the flanks but mistakenly left them further back to save movement points.

quote:

Soviet GT 5

Recon flights showed a suspicious accumulation of panzer units just west of Smolensk - could indicate a HQBuildUp.
Not taking any chances, the Soviet units retreated setting up a new defensive position behind the Dnepr to avoid
a possible pocket attempt by the panzers. The best defensive lines are behind rivers and having 2 units in
each hex is ideal, this makes it difficult for the panzer units to attack across and have to go around the flanks
which burns up their movement points.


No HQB here, they are so costly on APs I don't want to waste any. There is some double guess going on on opposing sides. If STAVKA retreats several hexes an HQB is largely wasted, to get best value I want some infantry support and a Soviet front line that is not too far away. However the threat of doing HQBs may get me a free advance.

< Message edited by tyronec -- 11/19/2017 7:20:56 PM >

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Post #: 64
GT 5 Air War - 11/20/2017 1:09:03 AM   
Grognard1812


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The Luftwaffe continued its attempt to win complete air superiority over the Eastern Front by launching massive
air attacks to draw out and shoot down intercepting Soviet Fighters and Fighter Bombers. In the below ground
attack 228 German Fighters were intercepted by 158 Soviet Fighters and Fighter Bombers, the Soviet Air Force
lost 33 planes for only 2 planes lost by the Luftwaffe.




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RE: GT 5 Air War - 11/20/2017 1:49:26 AM   
Grognard1812


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The Soviet Air Force attempted to respond by concentrating their Air Force in the area and increasing the
Fighter interception level to 300%.

Doing the math, the Luftwaffe started the game with 249 Messerschmitt BF 109 E (with another 220 in the force pool)
Fighters and 593 Messerschmitt BF 109 F fighters, and 161 BF 110 Fighter Bombers for a total of 1062 Fighters and
161 Fighter Bombers. In the game on GT 5, German Factories produced a total of 30 Messerschmitt BF 109 F Fighters
per turn with only 57% going to the force pool for the Eastern Front - only 17 fighters each turn. Six BF 110 E
are produced each turn with only 4 going to the force pool of the Eastern Front.

In Contrast, on GT 5 Soviet Factories in the game produced 72 MiG 3 Fighters, 25 Yak 1 Fighter Bombers and 66 LAGG 3
Fighter Bombers for a total of 163 per turn - 8 times more than the production level for the Luftwaffe.

The Axis only lost 16 Fighters on game turn 3 and 18 on GT 4. On Game Turn 5 the Soviet Air Force lost 795 planes
compared to 110 for the Axis, but most importantly the Luftwaffe lost 73 BF 109 Fighters, loses the Luftwaffe
cannot sustain long term.




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RE: Mountain Division - 11/20/2017 3:50:24 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Very nice save of the Mountain Division, along with the Armor that was there too ;-). Mr Stalin has taken that commander of that front off the kill list, for now........ ;-P. I do see 3 "good" divisions (the 2 attack value with experienced squads) going to be working on the German railroad soon.

From the telegram of Stalin to Khrushchev(member of military counsil of the SW front)

"The reliable information has been received that you all are panic-stricken from the Commander of the South-Western Front to the members of the Military Council and intend to divert troops to the left bank of the Dnieper.
I warn you that if you take at least one step in the direction of withdrawing troops to the left bank of the Dnieper, you will not be up to the last opportunity to defend the areas of the F.R.s on the right bank of the Dnieper, you will all suffer a cruel punishment like cowards and deserters ".

=)


Thank you for putting this more eloquently in words.

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Post #: 67
RE: GT 5 Air War - 11/20/2017 4:00:27 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard1812

The Soviet Air Force attempted to respond by concentrating their Air Force in the area and increasing the
Fighter interception level to 300%.

Doing the math, the Luftwaffe started the game with 249 Messerschmitt BF 109 E (with another 220 in the force pool)
Fighters and 593 Messerschmitt BF 109 F fighters, and 161 BF 110 Fighter Bombers for a total of 1062 Fighters and
161 Fighter Bombers. In the game on GT 5, German Factories produced a total of 30 Messerschmitt BF 109 F Fighters
per turn with only 57% going to the force pool for the Eastern Front - only 17 fighters each turn. Six BF 110 E
are produced each turn with only 4 going to the force pool of the Eastern Front.

In Contrast, on GT 5 Soviet Factories in the game produced 72 MiG 3 Fighters, 25 Yak 1 Fighter Bombers and 66 LAGG 3
Fighter Bombers for a total of 163 per turn - 8 times more than the production level for the Luftwaffe.

The Axis only lost 16 Fighters on game turn 3 and 18 on GT 4. On Game Turn 5 the Soviet Air Force lost 795 planes
compared to 110 for the Axis, but most importantly the Luftwaffe lost 73 BF 109 Fighters, loses the Luftwaffe
cannot sustain long term.





My exact thoughts, the German fighters are the key to gaining air superiority. Here is a comparison of my Turn 6 German fighters shot down.




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RE: GT 5 Air War - 11/20/2017 4:04:28 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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On turn 7, in Tyronec game and mine, I scored another 74 fighters and 6 Fighter bombers. So I think you are on a good path Grondard1812 but the next turns will get dicey in the Air if you aren't careful ;-)

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RE: GT 5 Air War - 11/20/2017 4:07:37 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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Please realize I was taking "horrendous" loses in all airframes in our game. But I had an excellent core of fighters with high experience by turn 7.

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RE: GT 5 Air War - 11/20/2017 4:08:28 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:


Please realize I was taking "horrendous" loses in all airframes in our game. But I had an excellent core of fighters with high experience by turn 7.


Plus I still stand by my other comments made in the other thread about what is happening here too in this game for the Air War. I wish you two the best in the air and really looking forward to how this plays out.

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 11/20/2017 4:13:56 AM >


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RE: GT 5 Air War - 11/20/2017 10:18:42 AM   
Crackaces


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Besides the building Soviet experience angle.... know that the 109E3’s Withdraw ..so shooting those down is a wash ..I wonder if the German player is strategizing around that fact?


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RE: GT 5 Air War - 11/20/2017 12:47:40 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Besides the building Soviet experience angle.... know that the 109E3’s Withdraw ..so shooting those down is a wash ..I wonder if the German player is strategizing around that fact?



I'm sure Tyronec did in our game. I found the withdrawing 109-E's up front. Gronard1812 will have to speak to his game. But imho there should be a steeper penalty of sorts(replacing lost aircraft to full before withdrawing) for doing so. I'm not condemning the use of withdrawing units but saying that "free" throw aways should be discouraged ;-)

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RE: GT 5 Air War - 11/20/2017 1:13:26 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Besides the building Soviet experience angle.... know that the 109E3’s Withdraw ..so shooting those down is a wash ..I wonder if the German player is strategizing around that fact?



I'm sure Tyronec did in our game. I found the withdrawing 109-E's up front. Gronard1812 will have to speak to his game. But imho there should be a steeper penalty of sorts(replacing lost aircraft to full before withdrawing) for doing so. I'm not condemning the use of withdrawing units but saying that "free" throw aways should be discouraged ;-)


Or a detail to play the game optimally .. As a newbie player just learning the game ... I am at a crossroads.
If you are of the ilk that WitE is a great game and not a simulation then using withdrawing units is another detail amongst many details required to master in order to win. If you are of the ilk that home rules and restrictions to play will somehow make WitE a "simulation" then choose your opponents wisely.
I have just come to realize for example, using SU's that withdraw -- is that gamey? There are so many strategic, operational, and tactical considerations that optimize play and provide a better chance for victory in the end.

..............

Different subject but on the same tract
I see posts discussing comparing raw CV's and wondering about combat results .. estimating 2:1 and getting 1:3 There are so many factors that go into a combat result that again mastering all the details goes to the victor
I just crossed a minor river attacking with 3 units each with 3 SU's each (1 jgpz and 2 pioneer units) and 6 divisions in reserve .. (one reserve unit activated) ..I bombed all the units behind to fatigue possible enemy reserves being committed, and had many stukas that joined the ground attack, the enemy air was exhausted before the attack... I got across
Now a simple hasty attack with the same 2:1 calculation without preparation I predict fails ...

So rather than think this as a simulation ...I think of this as a very very complex game with some probabilities calculated from historical data ... the game is maximizing probabilities .. if you do something that cannot be countered and it assures an outcome that is gamey .. but in no way is WitE a simulation ...


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RE: GT 5 Air War - 11/20/2017 2:23:04 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Besides the building Soviet experience angle.... know that the 109E3’s Withdraw ..so shooting those down is a wash ..I wonder if the German player is strategizing around that fact?



I'm sure Tyronec did in our game. I found the withdrawing 109-E's up front. Gronard1812 will have to speak to his game. But imho there should be a steeper penalty of sorts(replacing lost aircraft to full before withdrawing) for doing so. I'm not condemning the use of withdrawing units but saying that "free" throw aways should be discouraged ;-)


Or a detail to play the game optimally .. As a newbie player just learning the game ... I am at a crossroads.
If you are of the ilk that WitE is a great game and not a simulation then using withdrawing units is another detail amongst many details required to master in order to win. If you are of the ilk that home rules and restrictions to play will somehow make WitE a "simulation" then choose your opponents wisely.
I have just come to realize for example, using SU's that withdraw -- is that gamey? There are so many strategic, operational, and tactical considerations that optimize play and provide a better chance for victory in the end.

..............

Different subject but on the same tract
I see posts discussing comparing raw CV's and wondering about combat results .. estimating 2:1 and getting 1:3 There are so many factors that go into a combat result that again mastering all the details goes to the victor
I just crossed a minor river attacking with 3 units each with 3 SU's each (1 jgpz and 2 pioneer units) and 6 divisions in reserve .. (one reserve unit activated) ..I bombed all the units behind to fatigue possible enemy reserves being committed, and had many stukas that joined the ground attack, the enemy air was exhausted before the attack... I got across
Now a simple hasty attack with the same 2:1 calculation without preparation I predict fails ...

So rather than think this as a simulation ...I think of this as a very very complex game with some probabilities calculated from historical data ... the game is maximizing probabilities .. if you do something that cannot be countered and it assures an outcome that is gamey .. but in no way is WitE a simulation ...


Make a withdrawl totally random imho. But again we are playing a game that is modeled after history. I think all events should be randomized instead of following the actual WW2timeline. That way both players have to adapt to adversity instead of an omnipatent knowledge of foresight of what is about to happen. Just my 2 cents.

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RE: GT 5 Air War - 11/20/2017 2:38:09 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

Make a withdrawl totally random imho. But again we are playing a game that is modeled after history. I think all events should be randomized instead of following the actual WW2timeline. That way both players have to adapt to adversity instead of an omnipatent knowledge of foresight of what is about to happen. Just my 2 cents.


Not to highjack this thread .. but I do agree .. a totally random option .. (weather, reinforcements, withdrawal) based on some constraints would make a more interesting game... but so much other stuff to fix ..

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RE: GT 5 Air War - 11/20/2017 4:29:36 PM   
Grognard1812


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Besides the building Soviet experience angle.... know that the 109E3’s Withdraw ..so shooting those down is a wash ..I wonder if the German player is strategizing around that fact?



I'm sure Tyronec did in our game. I found the withdrawing 109-E's up front. Gronard1812 will have to speak to his game. But imho there should be a steeper penalty of sorts(replacing lost aircraft to full before withdrawing) for doing so. I'm not condemning the use of withdrawing units but saying that "free" throw aways should be discouraged ;-)


Yes, Tyronec is using BF 109 E3 in the front lines. He probably transferred them there from the Axis force pool.
Since they were in the Force pool wouldn't they stay there until the end of the game, unless the Axis player manually
transferred them to an air unit?

This is an interesting way for the Axis player to get the use of another 220 fighter planes that he would not
normally get to use in the game, as newer variants of the BF 109 had replaced them. Historically they probably
would have been used as training aircraft and not placed in the front lines unless in an emergency.

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Post #: 77
RE: GT 5 Air War - 11/20/2017 4:39:20 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard1812


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Besides the building Soviet experience angle.... know that the 109E3’s Withdraw ..so shooting those down is a wash ..I wonder if the German player is strategizing around that fact?



I'm sure Tyronec did in our game. I found the withdrawing 109-E's up front. Gronard1812 will have to speak to his game. But imho there should be a steeper penalty of sorts(replacing lost aircraft to full before withdrawing) for doing so. I'm not condemning the use of withdrawing units but saying that "free" throw aways should be discouraged ;-)


Yes, Tyronec is using BF 109 E3 in the front lines. He probably transferred them there from the Axis force pool.
Since they were in the Force pool wouldn't they stay there until the end of the game, unless the Axis player manually
transferred them to an air unit?

This is an interesting way for the Axis player to get the use of another 220 fighter planes that he would not
normally get to use in the game, as newer variants of the BF 109 had replaced them. Historically they probably
would have been used as training aircraft and not placed in the front lines unless in an emergency.


Tyronec mentioned in his opening statements he was using AP's to do so if I remember correctly. It is nice to get a lot more rubber on the tire doing so.

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RE: GT 5 Air War - 11/20/2017 5:28:54 PM   
chaos45

 

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If I remember right the 109E has more firepower than the 109F meaning its better at shooting down bombers to.

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RE: GT 5 Air War - 11/20/2017 6:01:07 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognard1812


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Besides the building Soviet experience angle.... know that the 109E3’s Withdraw ..so shooting those down is a wash ..I wonder if the German player is strategizing around that fact?



I'm sure Tyronec did in our game. I found the withdrawing 109-E's up front. Gronard1812 will have to speak to his game. But imho there should be a steeper penalty of sorts(replacing lost aircraft to full before withdrawing) for doing so. I'm not condemning the use of withdrawing units but saying that "free" throw aways should be discouraged ;-)


Yes, Tyronec is using BF 109 E3 in the front lines. He probably transferred them there from the Axis force pool.
Since they were in the Force pool wouldn't they stay there until the end of the game, unless the Axis player manually
transferred them to an air unit?

This is an interesting way for the Axis player to get the use of another 220 fighter planes that he would not
normally get to use in the game, as newer variants of the BF 109 had replaced them. Historically they probably
would have been used as training aircraft and not placed in the front lines unless in an emergency.


Tyronec mentioned in his opening statements he was using AP's to do so if I remember correctly. It is nice to get a lot more rubber on the tire doing so.


yes 1 AP per airgroup ..manual upgrade option ... so you select an airgroup .. then select manual upgrade then select the 109E3 option ..1AP

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RE: GT 5 Air War - 11/20/2017 7:42:59 PM   
tyronec


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Yes, I did the convert some groups down to 109E3. There is a disadvantage in that think some of those planes get transferred to allies.

While I like the idea of random withdrawals from a play point of view it raises so many questions about historical OOBs, reinforcing units,... that it would be a major job to do it well and is likely not a runner.

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T6 - 11/20/2017 7:44:35 PM   
tyronec


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T6
Finland. STAVKA is defending forwards, will try and push the defence back at the 'top of the map' hex to avoid the river crossing. On the isthmus will push on and try and cut off one division.

AGN. Another withdrawal in front of Leningrad so will see how far I can advance in the north and will attempt to cross the river south of Lake Ilmen.

AGC. Another 50 miles retreated in front of Smolensk so can follow up there and PG2 can join up from the south. No point in doing any armour attacks, my panzers are getting plenty of rest.

AGS. 5 divisions have been left behind at Krivoi Rog so will seal them off and PG1 can rest. Will look to see if I can make a crossing across the Dnepr to be set up better for next turn.

Air war. Grognard has struck back with air base bombing and killed 57 (nearly all fighters) for 219. Almost his while air force is at Leningrad so I will probably do some fighter sweeps there and bombing elsewhere.






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RE: T6 - 11/20/2017 7:45:35 PM   
tyronec


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Finland. The attack up north fails but his fortification is reduced and will hopefully get past next turn, but it will be a long hard slog for the Finns. In the isthmus have cut off two units and should take out the port next turn.

AGN. In front of Leningrad there was a CV 12 stack in the front line and with the help of my HQB from last turn was able to cut through 40 miles. Even if he can push back one of these units would hope to cut off the city next turn.
Below Lake Ilmen we get past the river line, which should create a threat to his rear.





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RE: T6 - 11/20/2017 7:46:42 PM   
tyronec


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AGC. My infantry can barely keep up with the retreating Soviets. We make a little attack with one Pz corps so that the river line is effectively breached for next turn. PG2 links up from the south and Pripyat marshes should flip for next turn.




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RE: T6 - 11/20/2017 7:47:54 PM   
tyronec


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AGS. The surrounded divisions get sealed off and my armour rests. I get across the Dnepr into the marsh and am set to spread out next turn. There are still a Soviets in the L'Vov pocket and have just left them to the Romanians, so 17th Army is railing up to the front line.

Air war. A few fighter sweeps around Leningrad and a little bombing around AGS gets me 269 for 36. More important we are able to support the ground war everywhere apart from in front of Leningrad and most of my bombers do their full quota for the turn. Fighter fatigue is OK and several airbases have a rest turn.





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RE: T6 - 11/20/2017 7:49:00 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Finland. The attack up north fails but his fortification is reduced and will hopefully get past next turn, but it will be a long hard slog for the Finns. In the isthmus have cut off two units and should take out the port next turn.

AGN. In front of Leningrad there was a CV 12 stack in the front line and with the help of my HQB from last turn was able to cut through 40 miles. Even if he can push back one of these units would hope to cut off the city next turn.
Below Lake Ilmen we get past the river line, which should create a threat to his rear.






Finns .. Do you have HQ's with appropriate SU's within range? I note one unit participated with SU's .. Also .. I have units behind in reserve(The Cav units and that 16-5 inf unit) that sometimes pass their checks and participate I did not see any reserve checks? I also attack the Soviet units in reserve with air to increase fatigue and maybe increase the die roll required to participate as reserve (I see no Soviet reserve)
... I can say for sure all of these extras sometimes is the extra edge to get to 2:1 adjusted CV (So close with 1.73 to 1 )

< Message edited by Crackaces -- 11/20/2017 7:52:43 PM >


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RE: T6 - 11/20/2017 7:54:51 PM   
tyronec


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quote:

Finns .. Do you have HQ's with appropriate SU's within range? Also .. I have units behind in reserve that sometimes pass their checks and participate. I also attack the Soviet units in reserve to increase fatigue and maybe increase the die roll required to participate as reserve ... I can say for sure all of these extras sometimes is the extra edge to get to 2:1 adjusted CV

Yes, the attack was well set up. Note the Finnish CV.

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RE: T6 - 11/20/2017 8:56:15 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

quote:

Finns .. Do you have HQ's with appropriate SU's within range? Also .. I have units behind in reserve that sometimes pass their checks and participate. I also attack the Soviet units in reserve to increase fatigue and maybe increase the die roll required to participate as reserve ... I can say for sure all of these extras sometimes is the extra edge to get to 2:1 adjusted CV

Yes, the attack was well set up. Note the Finnish CV.


Then you just did not get those reserve units in (bad luck :( ) .. and you lost 6% because of two commands involved in the attack .. ..

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(in reply to tyronec)
Post #: 88
RE: T6 - 11/20/2017 9:43:29 PM   
tyronec


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From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
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quote:

Then you just did not get those reserve units in (bad luck :( ) .. and you lost 6% because of two commands involved in the attack .. ..


Look at the CV on the combat report, there were 2 reserve activations which had a command penalty.

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 89
RE: GT 5 Air War - 11/21/2017 1:43:11 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec
Yes, I did the convert some groups down to 109E3. There is a disadvantage in that think some of those planes get transferred to allies.


I think the maximum is twenty that go to the Rumanians - and their version is shorter range and in Rumanian fighter groups with worse experience/morale.

So if fighters is a choke point you may prefer the 109E3s to fight in higher experienced and morale German fighter groups - and you would actively not want them to be exported. On the other hand if you think you will never have a shortage of fighters then you may as well have extra fighters for the Rumanians too.

Those that are not exported get converted to B109E-4B. And Bf109E-4B in turn get converted to Bf109E-7/U1 tac bombers. Given that sometimes you do not have enough tactical bombers, not having the extra Bf109E-7/U1s I usually think of as the greater loss.


< Message edited by Telemecus -- 11/21/2017 1:44:41 PM >

(in reply to tyronec)
Post #: 90
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