Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

V1.11.01 German supply changes

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> V1.11.01 German supply changes Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
V1.11.01 German supply changes - 11/7/2017 7:28:03 PM   
Nix77

 

Posts: 314
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline
Does anyone else find the German rail supply changes a bit too rough on first glance?

Rail supply modifier is the extra modifier to supply received depending on how far east/west the German/Soviet player has advanced.

The patch brings an extra -10% penalty for the Germans before April 1942. The minimum is also lowered to 10% from 25%. A German HQ approaching Rostov in '41 would for example have a 10-15% supply modifier before the railhead modifiers. That means it'd get nearly zero supplies.

I can see the reasoning behind the changes (make Rostov, Voronezh and Tula harder targets to achieve), but in conjuction with the HQ buildup changes the rail supply changes seem quite harsh to me.

EDIT: I checked my PzHQ's rail modifier from late September in front of Rostov, it was 41% and the panzers had 40-48MPs available due to earlier buildup. Maybe the supply nerfs are OK after all... WitE is a monster of a game to test and justify balance changes :(

< Message edited by Nix77 -- 11/7/2017 7:47:20 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: V1.11.01 German supply changes - 11/7/2017 8:48:55 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11420
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline
The minimum of 10% instead of 25% will rarely (if ever) be in effect. So it's mainly up to the -10% nerf to reduce effectiveness of Axis supply in 1941.

(in reply to Nix77)
Post #: 2
RE: V1.11.01 German supply changes - 11/7/2017 8:49:23 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1741
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline
The German advance rates under the last patch were way to generous- taking leningrad/reaching moscow in september.

The nerf was needed, as well fixing alot of "bugs" that greatly hindered the Soviets ability to defend in 1941.

You will also see/learn that the ability or lack of ability of Axis success in 1941 is more based on the German players skill level than anything else. A really skilled German player can milk the supply system to keep the panzers with very high MPs for most of the early game---thus the reason German supply had to be reduced.

(in reply to Nix77)
Post #: 3
RE: V1.11.01 German supply changes - 11/8/2017 7:09:54 AM   
Searry

 

Posts: 579
Joined: 1/24/2014
Status: offline
I'm still getting crushed so I haven't seen the changes in effect as the Soviets.

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 4
RE: V1.11.01 German supply changes - 11/8/2017 8:50:54 AM   
Nix77

 

Posts: 314
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Searry

I'm still getting crushed so I haven't seen the changes in effect as the Soviets.


The rail supply change effect is probably only seen clearly in extreme cases (X>110), like Voronezh and Rostov in 1941. My play as the Germans would've changed dramatically with this patch, I pushed aggressively to the limits of supply and used liberally APs on buildups :D

(in reply to Searry)
Post #: 5
RE: V1.11.01 German supply changes - 11/8/2017 9:52:34 PM   
thedoctorking


Posts: 1711
Joined: 4/29/2017
Status: offline
Newbie question here: would these changes affect ongoing games?

(in reply to Nix77)
Post #: 6
RE: V1.11.01 German supply changes - 11/9/2017 1:32:17 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 3069
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

The minimum of 10% instead of 25% will rarely (if ever) be in effect. So it's mainly up to the -10% nerf to reduce effectiveness of Axis supply in 1941.


Just in my opinion it is how "often" the Germans can spend points on HQ buildups that is the main problem in my eyes. Supply is secondary after you already did your advance. Plus most of the time after a German does a HQ Build up, they will surround the units then next turn they off them or the following turn. By then the rail has caught up to do this all again. Or the Germans can daisy chain their HQ's on one front one after the other putting a severe strain on this area of the Battlefield and the Soviets will be hard pressed to do anything about it, even with the +1 attack. So it is the "frequency" of HQ buildups that is causing the mayhem. I think the supply situation will have negligible results especially on a well played German. Just my magic 8 ball fortune telling. Here let me shake the magic 8 ball and see if I can get a different answer ;-). (walks off into the distance shaking the Magic 8 ball searching for answers)




_____________________________

Space we can recover; time never

Napoleon

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 7
RE: V1.11.01 German supply changes - 11/9/2017 1:39:32 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 3069
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77


quote:

ORIGINAL: Searry

I'm still getting crushed so I haven't seen the changes in effect as the Soviets.


The rail supply change effect is probably only seen clearly in extreme cases (X>110), like Voronezh and Rostov in 1941. My play as the Germans would've changed dramatically with this patch, I pushed aggressively to the limits of supply and used liberally APs on buildups :D


Ya, I agree with you Nix. This patch will have little effect on a German that knows how to use the German War Machine. I will hold my breath for further information from those playing to see the result the patch does have.

_____________________________

Space we can recover; time never

Napoleon

(in reply to Nix77)
Post #: 8
RE: V1.11.01 German supply changes - 11/9/2017 6:00:01 AM   
morvael


Posts: 11420
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Just in my opinion it is how "often" the Germans can spend points on HQ buildups that is the main problem in my eyes.


With the cost tripled for crucial units, what do you think will happen to HQ buildups?

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 9
RE: V1.11.01 German supply changes - 11/9/2017 12:08:34 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 3179
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael
With the cost tripled for crucial units, what do you think will happen to HQ buildups?


Crystal ball gazing only but here goes. Rather than just accepting you play the same way with fewer buildups alternatives will be used. Obvious possibilities
i) Get rid of command penalties
ii) Get better leaders - axis LVIIPz corps and XIVPz corps regularly miss a ratings check costing 8MPs or more when they would have been close to full MPs, replacing the commander only needs to be done once and costs only a few points
iii) Move Panzer corps HQs back to rail or ten hexes from rail
iv) Do not move follow on divisions to recently taken hexes but wait a turn to have the lowest movement points used
iv) Prioritise clearing rail repair routes the previous turn over pocketing units.
v) More reassignment to and from corps the turn after their buildup


Given that motorising infantry divisions are now less than double the cost (I think) of building up a Panzer division - and that at their destination they demotorise and never have less than 8MPs - I expect a new method could be motorising lots of alternate infantry divisions each turn?

Conclusion: less points in total will be spent on HQ buildups and more on substitutes. Whatever the case I expect it will adapt to a different game rather than just the same game slower.


< Message edited by Telemecus -- 11/9/2017 4:43:44 PM >

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 10
RE: V1.11.01 German supply changes - 11/9/2017 12:23:23 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11420
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline
If players will go the opposite way (less HQBU for more optimizations in C&C and supply network), even better.

To an extent it will be possible to squeeze some more points from doing less C&C optimizations (those who want to still use HQBU tactics). As "Better CV" mode shows this will cost the Axis a lot in the long run, but perhaps for the first few turns it's more important to get more fuel than higher strength. But there is a definite limit of APs to spend, and with HQBU more expensive it is bound to be executed less often. This means mobile spearheads will be smaller (perhaps just one corps instead of a full Panzer Group), thus the encirclements will be easier to break, if there will be proper reserves.

I don't think temporarily motorized infantry units will be very good. You can't attack with them, right? And it will further reduce average resupply levels once the shortage of vehicles kicks in. I admit this part of the game may be a bit neglected and perhaps needs a look if all works as it should.

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 11
RE: V1.11.01 German supply changes - 11/9/2017 12:32:06 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 3179
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael
I don't think temporarily motorized infantry units will be very good. You can't attack with them, right? And it will further reduce average resupply levels once the shortage of vehicles kicks in. I admit this part of the game may be a bit neglected and perhaps needs a look if all works as it should.


I agree this has rarely been looked at because of the high points cost. Just there is now the possibility the costs-benefits ratio relative to other spend (i.e. buildups) has changed. It may be it is experimented with and found to be a failure, or too much of a success and needs to be addressed. If it did become a common thing rather than the rarity it historically was it may be an issue of making the game too ahistorical.

I think it is worth thinking of it over two turns - the first turn motorised it is not great. But the next turn it will be demotorised - and better than a panzer division as it can never go to 1 movement point. I assume most of the time a normal infantry division has lower supply needs than a panzer division. So while it is still more expensive than building up a motorised division, it no longer is a lot more expensive and has real advantages in the following turns.

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael
To an extent it will be possible to squeeze some more points from doing less C&C optimizations (those who want to still use HQBU tactics).


Those with an economics background will recognise that as a "Giffen Good" !!! A real rarity to find!

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 11/9/2017 12:38:28 PM >

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 12
RE: V1.11.01 German supply changes - 11/9/2017 12:37:50 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11420
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline
Now with more fuel consuming elements in infantry divisions (towed artillery) it would be worthwile to look at whether their MP should be affected by fuel shortages as well

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 13
RE: V1.11.01 German supply changes - 11/9/2017 1:04:45 PM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1237
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline
Due to the "Towed" thing, there will be a general increase of vehicle need in all units for both side if i understand correctly.

Maybe i'am wrong, but many division will need from 50/100 (for a normal german division) to many hundred more vehicles (such as artillery divisions). It seems huge.

Or i did not understood the modification.



< Message edited by Stelteck -- 11/9/2017 1:11:31 PM >

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 14
RE: V1.11.01 German supply changes - 11/9/2017 1:10:26 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11420
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline
41b Infantry Division in 1.08.02 required 249 vehicles and 1 fuel (and 179 supply, 567 ammo).
41b Infantry Division in 1.11.01 requires 282 vehicles and 10 fuel (and 171 supply, 598 ammo).

(if my TOE overview generator is right)

Don't worry, most guns are still towed by horses.

(in reply to Stelteck)
Post #: 15
RE: V1.11.01 German supply changes - 11/9/2017 1:13:31 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11420
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline
41b Rifle Division in 1.08.02 required 48 vehicles and 1 fuel (and 103 supply, 181 ammo).
41b Rifle Division in 1.11.01 requires 72 vehicles and 4 fuel (and 104 supply, 250 ammo).

I will re-check this data, because I'm using data generated a month before the patch was finished, and Denniss could have made some changes during that time.

Fuel increase appeared somewhere during 1.08 lifecycle (maybe with .05), when it was assumed that some part of unit support squads moves using trucks. It was necessary to raise most unit fuel needs above 1 ton (2000 lbs), because that it the smalles unit that could be delivered to unit (1 dump = 1 ton = 2000 lbs), and if unit had (for example) 100 lbs fuel need (shown as 1 due to rounding up), by getting 2000lbs it would have 2000% of need (shown as 999%). It was looking bad, so we had to increase fuel use for those units (which was justified, because those needs were terribly low for non-motorized units, where perhaps only 2 often not present armored cars were actually the only element requiring fuel in an infantry division).

Ammo increase appeared when Denniss standardized ammo use based on element types & calibers.

< Message edited by morvael -- 11/9/2017 1:27:20 PM >

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 16
RE: V1.11.01 German supply changes - 11/9/2017 1:14:11 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 3179
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline
Now with the issue of towed or horse drawn - am I right to say horse numbers or shortages are not tracked or modelled in any way? Or only indirectly by general supply modifiers? As the German armed forces did have a horse shortage problem in 1941 - and found their horses died more quickly than the Russian ones they picked up - is this something worth thinking about for WitE 2.0?

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 11/9/2017 1:15:11 PM >

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 17
RE: V1.11.01 German supply changes - 11/9/2017 1:18:19 PM   
Stelteck

 

Posts: 1237
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline
All artillery support regiment will need around 30 more vehicles each.

The change is very interesting, i love it but we will have to check the impact on vehicle pool.

Also my beloved BM-13 will be not so expensive after all relative to howitzer


< Message edited by Stelteck -- 11/9/2017 1:19:45 PM >

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 18
RE: V1.11.01 German supply changes - 11/9/2017 1:23:04 PM   
morvael


Posts: 11420
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline
I'm afraid this game was too focused on American (motorized) way of waging war in its design phase, and so horses didn't receive as much attention as they should (which anyone who will read - for example - "Mechanized Juggernaut or Military Anachronism?: Horses and the German Army of World War II" will know). Horses should be treated in (at least) similar way vehicles (trucks) are treated. But for now what they just do is to increase supply needs & per-turn consumption (fodder) of units that contain elements assumed to be using horses. There is no impact of not enough horses, weak horses, ill horses, tired horses, missing horses, dead horses

edit: and I'm not sure WitE2 addresses this, but I may not be up to date. I know WitW improved motorization model where you can have semi motorized units (where for example all elements other than infantry squads are assumed to be motorized), but horses were still ignored.

< Message edited by morvael -- 11/9/2017 1:27:35 PM >

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 19
RE: V1.11.01 German supply changes - 11/9/2017 4:01:17 PM   
RKhan


Posts: 315
Joined: 1/17/2016
From: My Secret Bunker
Status: offline

Happy belated BDay Morvael.

_____________________________

RKhan

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 20
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> V1.11.01 German supply changes Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.145