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Killing/Hitting a level 5 U-Boat

 
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Killing/Hitting a level 5 U-Boat - 10/16/2017 8:13:47 AM   
Titan

 

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I have level 5 destroyers and level 5 Aircraft....4 Destroyers and numerous Air attacks all i get is a single hit on a U-Boat.. In my game as Allies i find my opponent rules the waves with U-Boats every where...When i find a U-Boat i need to throw every single ship at it just to try and get a few damage points. I find they are almost impposible to destroy and considering im approaching 1946 im wondering am i missing some sort of trick in killing one or bad luck or is it.......?
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RE: Killing/Hitting a level 5 U-Boat - 10/16/2017 9:05:13 AM   
The Land

 

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So I've been playing the 41 scenario both ways round vs AI in the last week and a bit.

As the Axis it feels like you can scarcely move your subs into the Atlantic without them getting set upon by half a dozen destroyers,

As the Allies it feels like you need every single destroyer you have to hunt a single sub, and then it usually gets away unsunk...

The Axis AI does at least set up intelligent "traps" where it uses subs to lure out destroyers and then the Tirpitz and a couple of cruisers show up to sink the destroyers - the German capital ships do not tend to survive long but the loss of the destroyers causes lasting problems in the sub war...


(in reply to Titan)
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RE: Killing/Hitting a level 5 U-Boat - 10/16/2017 2:34:55 PM   
Christolos


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It's also easy for U-boat wolfpacks (of 3 to 4 U-boats) to pounce on a Destroyer and sink it...
I would think in this case, a Destroyer should also have some chance to evade with its superior speed...

For me, the naval game is still very interesting and fun...but I wonder if something needs to be done to improve/balance the sub warfare aspect...

C

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RE: Killing/Hitting a level 5 U-Boat - 10/16/2017 3:16:12 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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From my own experience I would agree with all of the above comments. As I understand it a sub has an intrinsic 20% chance of diving to avoid an attack. My experience is this seems to be the case when both the sub and the attacking DD have level 0 tech each (in other words the subs tend to dive once for every five attacks). Each level of tech increase is suppose to increase and decrease by 10% a subs chance to dive. But my experience is that at higher tech levels a sub will dive for more often even if the sub and DD have the same tech levels. For example, if the sub and DD both have tech level 2 the sub should still only dive 20% of the time; but my experience is that it will dive closer to 50% or more of the time. So personally I think something is broken here.

The odd thing is that historically the Allies ability to detect and engage UBoats improved as the war went on. Accordingly, my own view is that a sub's ability to dive should start at 35% and each sub upgrade should increase this chance by 10%. But each ASW upgrade should decrease the subs chance to dive by 15%. Therefore if both are at level 3 the sub's chance to dive would be 20% and at level 5 each the sub's chance to dive would be 10%. This would make uboats far more deadly early in the war and less so as the war progresses (assuming the Allies invest in ASW).

< Message edited by Harrybanana -- 10/16/2017 3:17:43 PM >

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RE: Killing/Hitting a level 5 U-Boat - 10/16/2017 3:33:37 PM   
The Land

 

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How about reducing sub attack and defence values, but leaving the dive % as is (or indeed increasing it?) And of course making them cheaper to compensate!

To my mind this would make things a bit more historical. Subs would be weak enough that in pretty much any circumstances they want to disengage from an enemy destroyer. A submarine fleet operating in a narrow area to stomp over any destroyers (or, indeed, capital ships) that approached them would stop being a viable option, and keeping subs dispersed so that enemy destroyers only engage one at time would be a better strategy. There would still be the occasional "lucky hit" when an enemy battleship stumbled upon a patrolling uboat, but fewer.

Can anyone see any downsides to that idea?


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RE: Killing/Hitting a level 5 U-Boat - 10/18/2017 3:18:16 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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I have run extensive tests involving literally thousands of attacks and have come to the following conclusions:

1. Each level of sub technology is supposed to increase a subs chance of diving to avoid attack by 10%. I believe this is WAD.
2. Each level of ASW technology is supposed to decrease a subs chance of diving by 10%. This is not WAD. A level 0 sub will dive 20% of the time whether it is attacked by a tech level 0 DD or a tech level 5 DD. Similarly, a tech level 5 sub will dive 70% of the time no matter what the tech level of the attacking DD.
3. Each level of ASW increases a DDs sub attack and sub defence values by 1. I believe this is WAD.
4. Each level of sub technology increases a subs naval attack value by 1, but does not increase it's defence value. I believe this is WAD.


The net effect of all of the above is that as DDs and subs mutually increase in tech levels the DDs will hit the subs less often, but when they do will do more damage. Also, it becomes more and more suicidal for a sub to attack a DD. At level 5 for both a sub will only likely inflict 1 or 2 points of damage while suffering 8 to 10 points of damage (assuming roughly equal effectiveness). So at level 0 for both 10 DD attacks on subs will on average hit 8 times doing 20 points of damage while suffering 10 points of damage. While at level 5 each the DDs will only hit on average 3 times doing 24 points of damage while suffering 3 points of damage. Of course, this isn't quite true, because if a sub only has a few hit points left whacking it for 8 points of damage is overkill.

I will post this in the bug Forum as well.

(in reply to The Land)
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RE: Killing/Hitting a level 5 U-Boat - 10/18/2017 3:49:22 AM   
Titan

 

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Those tests are interesting, now what that doesnt take into account is the realities of game play which puts things into the Subs favour even more so...assuming everything is level 5 i would need 10 DD's to get 3 hits to put a sub to the bottom...Now as in most cases Subs aren't alone good players tend to make sure they have a few friends nearby so each time the sub dives and thats one less DD that can attack you need to search and then you bump into another nearby Sub that gets a suprise attack on ur DD and you then lose that strike abilty plus you got a DD that is easy pickings for a sub next turn. So a group of 3-4 Subs could give a dozen DD's a real hard time....By 1945 the Axis have alot more than double that number and the allies really struggling moving navies and troops around at a time when the U-Boats where really being hunted down. I dont think to much twicking has to be done but perhaps DD strike rate could improve a tad

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RE: Killing/Hitting a level 5 U-Boat - 10/18/2017 10:54:44 AM   
nnason


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Harrybanana,

I for one want to thank you for your diligence.

Modeling WWII in Europe is difficult especially in trying to develop a balanced game. Modelling every aspect like ASW in a way that makes senses (realistic) and obtain balance is tough.

I have not had a chance to fully digest your analysis so not sure your could call this a "bug." But maybe there is a submariner or a DD flotilla guy that could comment.

In any case your analysis does help to explain what is going on, it impact on the game, and strategies for both sides. I for one appreciate this insight.

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US Army Retired

(in reply to Titan)
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RE: Killing/Hitting a level 5 U-Boat - 10/18/2017 2:31:54 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Thanks Harry, I will investigate this further on my end to ensure it is working as designed and if not to make the applicable corrections.

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RE: Killing/Hitting a level 5 U-Boat - 10/18/2017 6:07:54 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Titan

I have level 5 destroyers and level 5 Aircraft....4 Destroyers and numerous Air attacks all i get is a single hit on a U-Boat.. In my game as Allies i find my opponent rules the waves with U-Boats every where...When i find a U-Boat i need to throw every single ship at it just to try and get a few damage points. I find they are almost impposible to destroy and considering im approaching 1946 im wondering am i missing some sort of trick in killing one or bad luck or is it.......?


Titan, if your DDs have ASW level 5 you should be doing a lot more than just "a few damage points" if you hit it. Subs do not gain any defence value with each level while your DDs will gain sub attack with each level. So if you can hit the sub you should be able to do 8 or more damage.

(in reply to Titan)
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RE: Killing/Hitting a level 5 U-Boat - 10/18/2017 6:22:35 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Titan

Those tests are interesting, now what that doesnt take into account is the realities of game play which puts things into the Subs favour even more so...assuming everything is level 5 i would need 10 DD's to get 3 hits to put a sub to the bottom...Now as in most cases Subs aren't alone good players tend to make sure they have a few friends nearby so each time the sub dives and thats one less DD that can attack you need to search and then you bump into another nearby Sub that gets a suprise attack on ur DD and you then lose that strike abilty plus you got a DD that is easy pickings for a sub next turn. So a group of 3-4 Subs could give a dozen DD's a real hard time....By 1945 the Axis have alot more than double that number and the allies really struggling moving navies and troops around at a time when the U-Boats where really being hunted down. I dont think to much twicking has to be done but perhaps DD strike rate could improve a tad


At level 5 you should only need 2 hits to put a sub to the bottom, or with those 2 hits you could do 8 points of damage to 2 subs, which might be more cost effective. To get these 2 hits you should, on average, need only 7 DDs or aircraft. But you are right that those surprise attacks when you "bump" in to a sub can mess things up. Have you tried using your aircraft to recon the areas where you believe his subs are hiding?

(in reply to Titan)
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RE: Killing/Hitting a level 5 U-Boat - 10/18/2017 11:13:00 PM   
Christolos


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Thanks very much Harry for your very diligent effort in looking into this. I too wondered if something may be amiss regarding the sub warfare/ASW aspect of the naval game.

I eagerly await the outcome of Hubert's investigation into this.

Cheers,

C

< Message edited by CC1 -- 10/18/2017 11:16:13 PM >


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RE: Killing/Hitting a level 5 U-Boat - 10/20/2017 6:52:02 AM   
Amadeus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: I eagerly await the outcome of Hubert's investigation into this.


+1
Yes, could be very interesting


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RE: Killing/Hitting a level 5 U-Boat - 10/26/2017 3:02:56 PM   
Christolos


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Thanks Harry, I will investigate this further on my end to ensure it is working as designed and if not to make the applicable corrections.


Hi Hubert,

I know you have been busy with other comments, questions, and issues, but I was wondering if you have had a change to investigate the issue in question here...

Thanks,

C

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“Excellence is never an accident. It is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, and intelligent execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives - choice, not chance, determines your destiny.”

-Aristotle-

(in reply to Hubert Cater)
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RE: Killing/Hitting a level 5 U-Boat - 10/26/2017 4:17:32 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Yes there is a bug there and we are just working out how to balance things out going forward as fixing the bug changes the game play for Subs and Destroyers and we want to make sure the fix then doesn't lead to another possible imbalance.

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RE: Killing/Hitting a level 5 U-Boat - 10/27/2017 1:37:31 AM   
Christolos


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Thanks Hubert!

The game just keeps getting better and better!

I look forward to learning how this will be fixed!

Cheers,

C

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“Excellence is never an accident. It is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, and intelligent execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives - choice, not chance, determines your destiny.”

-Aristotle-

(in reply to Hubert Cater)
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RE: Killing/Hitting a level 5 U-Boat - 11/1/2017 3:07:22 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Just a quick update that we are now in the process of finalizing the next update and due to the number of reports and required fixes it will be a Beta update before we push out the official update some time after that. This is just to double check and ensure that we haven't missed anything or even worse introduced an error accidentally.

We are just doing our last bit of testing on our end as well as coordinating with the Matrix Production team, so the word is it will be some time next week and it will be v1.10.01 Beta.

I strongly encourage those that want to play with all the latest fixes/adjustments including the Subs and ASW research fix, to test it out when it is ready, including in PBEM++ as this will give us our best feedback to ensure a smooth official follow up release.

Thanks and thanks again for your patience,
Hubert

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RE: Killing/Hitting a level 5 U-Boat - 11/1/2017 3:41:50 PM   
nnason


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is WAD = Where is all the data?

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RE: Killing/Hitting a level 5 U-Boat - 11/1/2017 3:46:19 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nnason

is WAD = Where is all the data?


No. It is shorthand for "Working As Designed." In other words is a particular component of the game (in this case ASW technology) working as intended, or is there a bug?

(in reply to nnason)
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RE: Killing/Hitting a level 5 U-Boat - 11/11/2017 9:19:43 PM   
Titan

 

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At what level does the Bug affect subs...We decided to have a house rule no Sub or ASW past level 4...However i just had 12 attempts to hit a 1 strength point Sub and each time it dived. That was LVL 4 ASW vrs LVL4 Sub

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RE: Killing/Hitting a level 5 U-Boat - 11/11/2017 10:24:52 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Titan

At what level does the Bug affect subs...We decided to have a house rule no Sub or ASW past level 4...However i just had 12 attempts to hit a 1 strength point Sub and each time it dived. That was LVL 4 ASW vrs LVL4 Sub



Titan the bug does not affect the subs, it affects the ASW. At Tech level 0 for both the sub has a 20% chance to dive. Each tech level increase for a sub is supposed to increase its dive chance by 10% and each tech level of ASW is supposed to decrease the subs dive chance by 10%. The bug is that each level of ASW was not working to decrease the subs chance to dive. So in your example the sub should have had only a 20% (60+40-40)chance to dive but in fact had a 60% (20+40-0) chance to dive. Still, successfully diving 12 times with only a 60% chance seems lucky to the extreme. I am not sure if experience helps a sub dive or not.

In any event, Hubert is coming up with a fix that will, I believe, change the whole formula for a sub diving.

< Message edited by Harrybanana -- 11/11/2017 10:25:17 PM >

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RE: Killing/Hitting a level 5 U-Boat - 11/13/2017 4:00:35 AM   
Christolos


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Yes, this was fixed with the v1.10.01 Beta update.

As per the v1.10.01 – November 07, 2017 change history:

- Fixed an ASW research upgrade error that did not help to reduce the percentage chance that a sub may dive from an attack.

This also involved campaign level balancing changes discussed here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4372947&mpage=1&key=�

C

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“Excellence is never an accident. It is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, and intelligent execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives - choice, not chance, determines your destiny.”

-Aristotle-

(in reply to Harrybanana)
Post #: 22
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