Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/21/2017 1:08:33 AM   
Footslogger


Posts: 1227
Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Washington USA
Status: offline
Will this Captain be canned too?

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/uss-john-s-mccain-collides-with-merchant-vessel/ar-AAqrrXu?li=BBnb7Kz&OCID=AVRES007

Is this happening too often?



Post #: 1
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/21/2017 6:35:25 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6373
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline
Time to can an Admiral or 2.

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to Footslogger)
Post #: 2
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/21/2017 6:54:48 AM   
InfiniteMonkey

 

Posts: 354
Joined: 9/16/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Time to can an Admiral or 2.

or wonder if something deeper is going on.

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 3
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/21/2017 8:06:12 AM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 1883
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Time to can an Admiral or 2.

or wonder if something deeper is going on.




Perhaps the navy wants to safe on ship personnel and blaming humans errors for such accidents for more computers / automatic system....
Note there is a push overall to get rid of humans, also with driverless cars etc.

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 8/21/2017 8:10:19 AM >

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)
Post #: 4
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/21/2017 8:26:02 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6373
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Time to can an Admiral or 2.

or wonder if something deeper is going on.


What, 4 aegis equipped vessels damaged in 1 year...



_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)
Post #: 5
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/21/2017 8:39:04 AM   
JamesM

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: QLD, Australia
Status: offline
How good is the US Navy ship handling training?

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 6
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/21/2017 11:59:43 AM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4281
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline
Been hearing bad things about the Navy for years,... looking like there is truth.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 8/21/2017 7:34:03 PM >

(in reply to JamesM)
Post #: 7
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/21/2017 12:17:31 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 23790
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

Unfortunately and apparently one word can describe all of this quite good: "complacency" ...


BTW, this was official USN statement from the previous collision:

quote:


Poor seamanship and flaws in keeping watch contributed to a collision between a Navy destroyer and a commercial container ship that killed seven sailors, Navy officials said, announcing that the warship captain will be relieved of command and more than a dozen other sailors will be punished.

Adm. William Moran, the vice chief of naval operations, said that the top three leaders aboard the USS Fitzgerald, which was badly damaged in the collision off the coast of Japan, will be removed from duty aboard the ship. They are the commanding officer, Cmdr. Bryce Benson; the executive officer, Cmdr. Sean Babbitt; and Master Chief Petty Officer Brice Baldwin, who as the ship's command master chief is its most senior enlisted sailor.

'The collision was avoidable, and both ships demonstrated poor seamanship,' the Navy's 7th Fleet said in a statement, noting that 'flawed' teamwork among those assigned to keep watch contributed to the collision.


_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 8
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/21/2017 7:30:26 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10397
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
I posted in the other DD collision thread before seeing this. This is the 4th incident with ships based at Yosuka this year. Lesser known incidents include a cruiser running around and another hitting a fishing vessel. What's up with Yosuka?

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 9
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/21/2017 8:29:14 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 8252
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
They need a 'Student Driver' sign.

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 10
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/22/2017 2:13:46 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4258
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline
US Navy orders 'operational pause' after collision

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-41002749

they didn't really explain what operational pause means, I can guess it is an order to stop all non critical patrols?

(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 11
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/22/2017 1:45:39 PM   
zuluhour


Posts: 5242
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline
leaders (yes) crews (doubtful) systems (yes yes) I can't stop thinking there is something afoot in the systems area whether electronics related or protocols, I lean on electronics.

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 12
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/22/2017 1:48:09 PM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3579
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I posted in the other DD collision thread before seeing this. This is the 4th incident with ships based at Yosuka this year. Lesser known incidents include a cruiser running around and another hitting a fishing vessel. What's up with Yosuka?

Bill


I saw that the other day reading an article. I find it very suspicious that all 4 recent accidents have been from ships stationed out of Japan. Someone needs to go there and shake things up.

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 13
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/22/2017 2:11:59 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 16685
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

leaders (yes) crews (doubtful) systems (yes yes) I can't stop thinking there is something afoot in the systems area whether electronics related or protocols, I lean on electronics.

News late last night said the ship lost all power just before the collision, and the backup systems also failed. I wonder if the North Koreans have found a way to hack the military telecom systems and get into the ship's computerized command systems. And if the crew had the training and moxie to put up "unnavigable" signals, I wonder if merchant ship sailors had the training and moxie to understand them.

EDIT: PS - if anyone did find a way to hack systems via telecom, the Navy would never admit it as it would give too much feedback to the perpetrators. So they will have to make up something. All this is just speculation of course, but the Admiral interviewed on CNN did say automation would be looked at as a contributing factor. Several civilian air accident investigations have found that over-reliance on automation was a big factor in the chain of events leading to the disaster. The humans have to know when to stop trusting the automation and switch to manual.

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 8/22/2017 2:34:51 PM >


_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to zuluhour)
Post #: 14
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/22/2017 2:25:27 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4955
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline
"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me"

I don't want to get my tin foil hat on. I sure would like to see the investigation review notes .

_____________________________

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 15
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/22/2017 5:53:16 PM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3579
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

EDIT: PS - if anyone did find a way to hack systems via telecom, the Navy would never admit it as it would give too much feedback to the perpetrators. So they will have to make up something. All this is just speculation of course, but the Admiral interviewed on CNN did say automation would be looked at as a contributing factor. Several civilian air accident investigations have found that over-reliance on automation was a big factor in the chain of events leading to the disaster. The humans have to know when to stop trusting the automation and switch to manual.


I wouldn't just say North Korea - China and Russia would do it too. I believe the McCain did just do some South China Sea runs that the Chinese did not like one bit.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 16
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/22/2017 8:06:43 PM   
Orm


Posts: 21631
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
If it was outside interference then why wasn't the second ship alerted to this and on increased watch?

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 17
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/22/2017 8:13:25 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4955
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

If it was outside interference then why wasn't the second ship alerted to this and on increased watch?


Nothing proven. Heck, this is all speculation, it could just be a more laid back Navy that the one I remember...


I still would love to read the un-edited investigation files

_____________________________

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 18
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/22/2017 8:28:08 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2843
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

If it was outside interference then why wasn't the second ship alerted to this and on increased watch?


Nothing proven. Heck, this is all speculation, it could just be a more laid back Navy that the one I remember...


I still would love to read the un-edited investigation files


Perhaps to reliant on their new electronic gizmo's with whatever reliability issues come with them vs traditional eyes on the target

(in reply to Lecivius)
Post #: 19
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/22/2017 8:29:57 PM   
scout1


Posts: 2843
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: South Bend, In
Status: offline
Heck, I just saw an article within the last 6 months about the Academy re-instating the Celestial Navigation class for the junior year ..... Really, why would they have stopped it ?

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 20
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/22/2017 9:00:11 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 8252
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
Why its not surprising that ship collisions still happen...

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20170822-why-its-not-surprising-that-ship-collisions-still-happen

(in reply to scout1)
Post #: 21
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/22/2017 9:18:36 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 16685
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Why its not surprising that ship collisions still happen...

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20170822-why-its-not-surprising-that-ship-collisions-still-happen

Good article - it mentions many of the things we have been discussing.

One other point about the reliance on automation and instruments - in the air accident docs I have watched failure of the instrumentation or automation tends to focus crew attention on the failed device with no one looking at what else is going on in the real world. Even real world distractions can cause accidents - one Canadian Search and Rescue plane was lost when the crew spotted wreckage of a downed aircraft and did a slow circle to see if there were any survivors present. Everyone was looking at the wreckage and no one noticed the airspeed falling and the plane stalled at low altitude. (There was no "stick shaker" stall warning in the old aircraft being used). So if the news report about loss of power on the JSMcCain is correct, there is a chance the crew were fixed on repairing that problem and not warning other ships of their situation.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 22
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/22/2017 11:00:39 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7015
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

One other point about the reliance on automation and instruments - in the air accident docs I have watched failure of the instrumentation or automation tends to focus crew attention on the failed device with no one looking at what else is going on in the real world. Even real world distractions can cause accidents - one Canadian Search and Rescue plane was lost when the crew spotted wreckage of a downed aircraft and did a slow circle to see if there were any survivors present. Everyone was looking at the wreckage and no one noticed the airspeed falling and the plane stalled at low altitude. (There was no "stick shaker" stall warning in the old aircraft being used). So if the news report about loss of power on the JSMcCain is correct, there is a chance the crew were fixed on repairing that problem and not warning other ships of their situation.


Exact reason an Air France crashed in the Atlantic some years back. An anomaly of sorts (long story) caused all three pito(sp?) tubes to clog. Loss of inputs from these devices disengaged the auto-pilot. Instead of then flying the plane manually the crew was focused on why the auto-pilot 'failed'. Result, crash, no survivors.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 23
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/23/2017 11:31:06 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4258
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline
As expected, commander of Seventh Fleet is sacked

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41020729

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 24
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/23/2017 11:38:13 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 23790
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline
Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Exact reason an Air France crashed in the Atlantic some years back. An anomaly of sorts (long story) caused all three pito(sp?) tubes to clog. Loss of inputs from these devices disengaged the auto-pilot. Instead of then flying the plane manually the crew was focused on why the auto-pilot 'failed'. Result, crash, no survivors.


This is a bit of oversimplification...

The AF447 crashed because 3 pilots failed to realize that they were in stall (and kept pulling up the flight stick)... they also didn't realize that after AutoPilot disengaged and 3 pitot tubes clogged that they exited the "Normal Law" of FlyByWire and entered the "Alternate Law" (where there are no protections and all commands entered via flight stick are obeyed by FlyByWire)... it was night... it was sudden... it was extremely disorientating...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 25
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/23/2017 11:05:28 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7015
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

This is a bit of oversimplification...


I beg to differ, no oversimplification. They simply neglected to fly the A/C. Heck, even I know, if in doubt (and no other indications of fault) 85% thrust, 5 degree up elevator will keep an A/C that's in a correct attitude flying straight and level 'til it runs out of fuel.

quote:

The AF447 crashed because 3 pilots failed to realize that they were in stall (and kept pulling up the flight stick)...


Again, black box indicated they were in a low level descent. Which continued 'til they realized it too late. No one was apparently checking other instruments, like the horizon indicator.



_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 26
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/23/2017 11:06:12 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7015
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

As expected, commander of Seventh Fleet is sacked

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41020729


Happened 'on his watch'.


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 27
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/24/2017 1:48:48 PM   
joey


Posts: 1374
Joined: 5/8/2004
From: Johnstown, PA
Status: offline
I can remember a time spell when I was in the Navy were we had a similar run of ship collisions. There were the reported and the unreported collisions. But the happened all over the world. These all seem to be happening in the same general location under the same general command.
That in and of itself is interesting. I doubt this particular admiral is any worst or any better than any other admiral. Makes one think....

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 28
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/24/2017 2:38:32 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4955
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

These all seem to be happening in the same general location under the same general command.


I noticed that. 4 career ending incidents in the last 6 months. Curious...

_____________________________

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

(in reply to joey)
Post #: 29
RE: OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? - 8/25/2017 5:38:40 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10397
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline

My SO said she saw an article yesterday that there is evidence somebody has hacked GPS satellites. If that's the case, the ships might be getting fooled into thinking they are in the wrong place. On a car forum I saw someone complaining that the GPS in his car was intermittently telling him he was several blocks away from where he actually was.

If someone has managed to hack GPS, they might only be testing it out from time to time to see how good their hack is. A consistent GPS error would become obvious pretty quickly.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to Lecivius)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> OT: Another Ship to Ship Collision? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.250