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Romanian Front T1 & 2 - 7/14/2017 1:03:53 PM   
Manstein63


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This directly from the manual

The Romanian Front (both Axis and Soviet units in this area) is frozen on turns 1 and 2. Axis and Soviet ground units in this area can’t move, air units may move and fly missions. During a Soviet Logistics phase, if Axis forces control any hex that is both east of hex column 51 and in a hex row between 89 and 94 (all inclusive), then these forces will unfreeze.

I have met the criterea for this and as I understand the above rule all units south of hex row 94 (& this includes those units that are attached to the SW Front) should be frozen on the first & second turns so long as there are no Axis forces or ZoC in the above hexes. I did a test and found that not only were the SW Fronts units (5th Army?) on the Romanian border active on the Soviet first turn but so to were elements from the Southern Front as well.

Now you could argue that as the SW Front had been attacked in the North that all of its attached Army's / Units should be released, but I believe that, that particular argument would be specious at best, as those units would have been placed there to stop / slow any Axis incursion from Romania

I know that most peoples 1st Turn includes the super Lvov pocket but if this was corrected (assuming that it is an error) it allows for a more historical style of gameplay

Manstein63

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'There is not, nor aught there be, nothing so exalted on the face of god's great earth, as that prince of foods. THE MUFFIN!!!'

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RE: Romanian Front T1 & 2 - 7/14/2017 1:26:41 PM   
tyronec


Posts: 1813
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
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I recently played a game as Axis and stayed outside the activation area T1 and it all worked OK.
Just loading a campaign and hitting F12 twice and the Romanian front doesn't activate, though the Hungarians are a little different.

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Soars high above the clouds;
Meanwhile, the nightingale intones
With sweet, mellifluous sounds.

(in reply to Manstein63)
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RE: Romanian Front T1 & 2 - 7/14/2017 1:42:21 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 2978
Joined: 3/20/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Manstein63
all units south of hex row 94 (& this includes those units that are attached to the SW Front) should be frozen


That last bit is wrong - it is all units south of hex row 98. There are a few rows between where the Axis has to cross to unfreeze and where the Soviets remain frozen. This means the 5th army and also units of the South front/odessaMD are not frozen.

I have played games where the forces in Moldova and Besarabia remain frozen for both turns. I have used it on a game I am playing against MarauderPL which is going to be posted on YouTube so you can see it then in video.


< Message edited by Telemecus -- 7/14/2017 2:05:03 PM >

(in reply to Manstein63)
Post #: 3
RE: Romanian Front T1 & 2 - 7/14/2017 2:16:21 PM   
Manstein63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

That last bit is wrong - it is all units south of hex row 98. There are a few rows between where the Axis has to cross to unfreeze and where the Soviets remain frozen. This means the 5th army and also units of the South front/odessaMD are not frozen.



I copied & pasted the quote directly from the Manual but if you can show me where in the manual it say's south of hex row 98 then I will have no issue any more.
I would be very interested in seeing your YouTube game, will you post a link when it is up & running?

Manstein63

_____________________________

'There is not, nor aught there be, nothing so exalted on the face of god's great earth, as that prince of foods. THE MUFFIN!!!'

Frank Zappa (Muffin Man)

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 4
RE: Romanian Front T1 & 2 - 7/14/2017 2:29:42 PM   
Telemecus


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Yes the bit you copied from the manual is absolutely correct. If the Axis move south of row 89 the Rumanian front will unfreeze. AFAIK the manual does not describe the zone that is frozen anywhere - you will not see it say row 89, 94, or 98. Or indeed how far East it extends.

However it is really really clear. If you need to assure yourself just set up a human versus human game (no password) and press end turn without moving any Axis units. You can then see the Soviet side and which units are and are not frozen. It will be very obvious by examination that the units south of row 98 are frozen, and the units north are not. You will also see there is an Eastern edge to the frozen zone too.

I am very keen to see the videos too but they will be coming out with a delay after we played them. They are MarauderPL's thing and you can find his video YouTube channel by searching his name.

I think this kind of opening is very interesting and has many other advantages when you play them through to turn 4. But it is an experiment for me.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 7/14/2017 4:57:02 PM >

(in reply to Manstein63)
Post #: 5
RE: Romanian Front T1 & 2 - 7/14/2017 9:59:43 PM   
Manstein63


Posts: 652
Joined: 6/30/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Yes the bit you copied from the manual is absolutely correct. If the Axis move south of row 89 the Rumanian front will unfreeze. AFAIK the manual does not describe the zone that is frozen anywhere - you will not see it say row 89, 94, or 98. Or indeed how far East it extends.

However it is really really clear. If you need to assure yourself just set up a human versus human game (no password) and press end turn without moving any Axis units. You can then see the Soviet side and which units are and are not frozen. It will be very obvious by examination that the units south of row 98 are frozen, and the units north are not. You will also see there is an Eastern edge to the frozen zone too.


Yes these are the units that I was talking about the 16th mech corp of the SW front around Chernovsty is clearly in Besserabia which would mean that it is on the Romanian Front and should be frozen, in my opinion also the 35th Rifle & 2 mech corp of the Southern Front are also in Besserabia and by my interpretation of the rules those units should also be frozen as well. I would be interested in getting Joel's take on this and would be quite willing to accept his decision as final.

Manstein63

_____________________________

'There is not, nor aught there be, nothing so exalted on the face of god's great earth, as that prince of foods. THE MUFFIN!!!'

Frank Zappa (Muffin Man)

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 6
RE: Romanian Front T1 & 2 - 7/15/2017 2:11:12 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 2978
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Manstein63
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
Yes the bit you copied from the manual is absolutely correct. If the Axis move south of row 89 the Rumanian front will unfreeze. AFAIK the manual does not describe the zone that is frozen anywhere - you will not see it say row 89, 94, or 98. Or indeed how far East it extends.

However it is really really clear. If you need to assure yourself just set up a human versus human game (no password) and press end turn without moving any Axis units. You can then see the Soviet side and which units are and are not frozen. It will be very obvious by examination that the units south of row 98 are frozen, and the units north are not. You will also see there is an Eastern edge to the frozen zone too.


Yes these are the units that I was talking about the 16th mech corp of the SW front around Chernovsty is clearly in Besserabia which would mean that it is on the Romanian Front and should be frozen, in my opinion also the 35th Rifle & 2 mech corp of the Southern Front are also in Besserabia and by my interpretation of the rules those units should also be frozen as well. I would be interested in getting Joel's take on this and would be quite willing to accept his decision as final.
Manstein63



AFAIK Chernovtsy is in Bucovina not Besarabia - Besarabia I think of as North of the Danube Delta and South of modern Moldova. The 16th mech corps and 35 rifle corps also.

The manual does not describe anywhere which units are or are not frozen beyond the vague description of "Rumania". So you cannot know exactly which units are frozen without seeing them in the game. If the question is which units are frozen I'd suggest just looking at a Soviet turn 1 yourself without Axis going south of 89 - no need to ask anyone for confirmation as the game can show you and you can do that on your own in a few minutes.

If the question is should units in Bucovina etc be frozen as well as the ones south of row 98 that would be a different and interesting question. Perhaps the developers could shed a light on their choices and consider whether that should be changed?

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 7/15/2017 5:45:47 PM >

(in reply to Manstein63)
Post #: 7
RE: Romanian Front T1 & 2 - 7/15/2017 10:06:02 PM   
Manstein63


Posts: 652
Joined: 6/30/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

AFAIK Chernovtsy is in Bucovina not Besarabia - Besarabia I think of as North of the Danube Delta and South of modern Moldova. The 16th mech corps and 35 rifle corps also.

The manual does not describe anywhere which units are or are not frozen beyond the vague description of "Rumania". So you cannot know exactly which units are frozen without seeing them in the game. If the question is which units are frozen I'd suggest just looking at a Soviet turn 1 yourself without Axis going south of 89 - no need to ask anyone for confirmation as the game can show you and you can do that on your own in a few minutes.

If the question is should units in Bucovina etc be frozen as well as the ones south of row 98 that would be a different and interesting question. Perhaps the developers could shed a light on their choices and consider whether that should be changed?


Eastern European geography is obviously not my strong point. What I am trying to say is that the units in question are within the Romanian 1939 borders (as shown on the WitE map) & as such should be classed as being on the Romanian Front & therefore by the definition of the rules these units should also be frozen for the first two turns.

The problem, I think is that when the game was first released the Lvov pocket became the standard if not the only opening by German players and as such the Romanian Front is always active from turn one, so this issue was never really discussed.

Manstein63

_____________________________

'There is not, nor aught there be, nothing so exalted on the face of god's great earth, as that prince of foods. THE MUFFIN!!!'

Frank Zappa (Muffin Man)

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 8
RE: Romanian Front T1 & 2 - 7/16/2017 6:39:54 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 982
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manstein63


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

AFAIK Chernovtsy is in Bucovina not Besarabia - Besarabia I think of as North of the Danube Delta and South of modern Moldova. The 16th mech corps and 35 rifle corps also.

The manual does not describe anywhere which units are or are not frozen beyond the vague description of "Rumania". So you cannot know exactly which units are frozen without seeing them in the game. If the question is which units are frozen I'd suggest just looking at a Soviet turn 1 yourself without Axis going south of 89 - no need to ask anyone for confirmation as the game can show you and you can do that on your own in a few minutes.

If the question is should units in Bucovina etc be frozen as well as the ones south of row 98 that would be a different and interesting question. Perhaps the developers could shed a light on their choices and consider whether that should be changed?


Eastern European geography is obviously not my strong point. What I am trying to say is that the units in question are within the Romanian 1939 borders (as shown on the WitE map) & as such should be classed as being on the Romanian Front & therefore by the definition of the rules these units should also be frozen for the first two turns.

The problem, I think is that when the game was first released the Lvov pocket became the standard if not the only opening by German players and as such the Romanian Front is always active from turn one, so this issue was never really discussed.

Manstein63

Very interesting point. Some German players move so quickly that frozen units become active just in time to go into the next pocket. No point having historical rules for one side and not the other.

(in reply to Manstein63)
Post #: 9
RE: Romanian Front T1 & 2 - 7/16/2017 3:30:01 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 2978
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Manstein63

Eastern European geography is obviously not my strong point. What I am trying to say is that the units in question are within the Romanian 1939 borders (as shown on the WitE map) & as such should be classed as being on the Romanian Front & therefore by the definition of the rules these units should also be frozen for the first two turns.

The problem, I think is that when the game was first released the Lvov pocket became the standard if not the only opening by German players and as such the Romanian Front is always active from turn one, so this issue was never really discussed.

Manstein63




I had to live in Eastern Europe for a while for work reasons and quickly had to brush up on the geography. But I have to admit before as a more ignorant western sider all the places used to go straight over me.

My guess is, although you have to be in the development team at the time to be sure, that someone said let us just freeze everything south of row 98. This then got handed over to the manual writer guy who said let me just call it "Rumania". It is misleading not just because it does not include Bucovina and the North East of Moldavia/North of Moldova, but because it does include Crimea and the Ukraine West of the Dnepr. We know from the news that Russia, Ukraine, Tatars and even Turkey have made claims to Crimea - but I have never heard of a Romanian or previous Rumanian claim since the fall of the Roman empire. Having described the trigger zone for Axis units (between row 89 and 94) so accurately it is strange that they left the frozen zone so vague.

Historically the invasion from Rumania did occur after the main Axis offensive started. And I think from reading it was even delayed because the AGS offensive out of Poland was not as fast as they anticipated. So in some sense they wanted to emulate the political difficulties of getting an offensive out of Rumania until its government was certain of success.

The problem is having frozen the Axis in 1941 borders Rumania you give the Soviets a chance to evacuate everything if they can delay the Axis near Southern Poland. So they had to make some sort of freezing rule to stop this - which I think is historically accurate as Stalin at the time was insisting on everything being defended, and they would not have been certain if Rumania was in the war at the time or could have been detered from entering. Indeed from reading the Soviets did actually make armed incursions into Rumania in its 1941 borders before Rumanian land forces crossed the border.

If you just freeze the forces in the pre-1941 Rumanian areas however you do leave many of the forces deployed in depth against Rumania (odessa etc.) free to evacuate. And the forces facing Rumania in Bucovina could then be trapped not by Rumanians but by Axis (as they usually are in the Super-Lvov opening). I know the developers do intend the forces in Bucovina to be evacuated. In the earliest versions you could trap them just by cutting the rail line at Proskurov, Rumanians on the border were in the next hex to the rail line in the South. So in some version the turn 1 scenario was adjusted by moving back Rumanian forces in that North Eastern corner - you can still see the empty hexes they left next to the rail line on the border.

So at least in my understanding, which is a guess at the minds of the developers, there is nothing special about the pre-1941 Rumanian border. They just wanted to stop the Soviets confronting Rumanian forces evacuating before Rumanian forces could go into action. But did not want to allow that to be used by Axis coming out of Poland.

Given that most experienced Axis players do better than historical in 1941 (e.g. Lvov pocket on turn 1) how relevant the historical freezing rules are is open to debate.

I think in the game I am playing I will be able to show you can pocket more units as Axis by not triggering the Rumanian activation until turn 3 - so either a viable alternative or even better opening to the standard one. I do not want to steal the thunder from MarauderPLs videos, but I will post a link here when they do appear.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 7/16/2017 5:13:48 PM >

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 10
RE: Romanian Front T1 & 2 - 6/21/2019 6:55:16 PM   
Telemecus


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Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: online
@Manstein63 I know a long time after I promised - but at least here is an AAR that shows what I was describing http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4639282

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 11
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