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Nukes in Turkey? - 6/26/2017 12:33:04 PM   
geofflambert


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http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/should-the-us-pull-its-nuclear-weapons-out-of-turkey/article/2626787

Concerning an article in the Washington Examiner (above), first I know nothing of this paper and if anyone does please speak up. In the article is a claim by a Hans Kristensen who is the director of the nuclear weapons committee of the Federation of American Scientists that the US keeps 50 B-61 gravity bombs at Incirlik. I don't know anything about the FAS or if they're legit. As far as I can tell Hans is a Danish Citizen although the Wiki on him lists him as residing in the US. As far as his education goes the Wiki only lists his high school (gymnasium). It therefor appears that Hans is neither American or a scientist.

The US will neither confirm or deny the claim but if true, in my opinion that would be nuts. President Erdogan declared the other day that evolution will no longer be taught in schools, as an example of what kind of guy he is. It's just a matter of time before Turkey is kicked out of NATO. Beginning with the second Iraq war they have been becoming more and more difficult to deal with and I don't think we (the US) should be selling them advanced weaponry anymore and should be removing our assets from same. The diplomats will not like that idea or at least will want paint a good face on it as I believe the main reason Turkey was admitted to NATO was to get them to stop having wars with Greece and to promote their once friendly relations with Israel.
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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/26/2017 1:37:31 PM   
MakeeLearn


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It's all about Grease...
The Captain says nuking a Turkey is best done by a Away Team, only Gorn ships have built-in deep fryers.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 6/26/2017 1:47:15 PM >

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/26/2017 2:03:11 PM   
tarkalak

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Concerning an article in the Washington Examiner (above), first I know nothing of this paper and if anyone does please speak up. In the article is a claim by a Hans Kristensen who is the director of the nuclear weapons committee of the Federation of American Scientists that the US keeps 50 B-61 gravity bombs at Incirlik. I don't know anything about the FAS or if they're legit. As far as I can tell Hans is a Danish Citizen although the Wiki on him lists him as residing in the US. As far as his education goes the Wiki only lists his high school (gymnasium). It therefor appears that Hans is neither American or a scientist.

The US will neither confirm or deny the claim but if true, in my opinion that would be nuts. President Erdogan declared the other day that evolution will no longer be taught in schools, as an example of what kind of guy he is. It's just a matter of time before Turkey is kicked out of NATO. Beginning with the second Iraq war they have been becoming more and more difficult to deal with and I don't think we (the US) should be selling them advanced weaponry anymore and should be removing our assets from same. The diplomats will not like that idea or at least will want paint a good face on it as I believe the main reason Turkey was admitted to NATO was to get them to stop having wars with Greece and to promote their once friendly relations with Israel.


Turkey was admitted in NATO (and had its economy funded immensely) in order to pull it away from communism.

The US put nukes in Turkey before the Cuban crisis. This caused the USSR to put their nukes in Cuba in order to get the US ones removed from Turkey. At least this is the way USSR claimed the whole thing happened.

I don't think that Turkey will get kicked out from NATO anytime soon. Unless Erdogan goes completely nuts. They are too close to today's hotspot.

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/26/2017 2:19:45 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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International alliances won't remain static. I mean Japan was a very close ally to the UK up until the 1920s. Iran was the most important Muslim ally to the US up until 1979

So who knows? but I agree only a major stupid move that has international implications will trigger some form of NATO expulsion. That said, any talks of Turkey joining the CE are off-the-table, assuming of course that there was a chance in the first place


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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/26/2017 2:55:27 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tarkalak


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Concerning an article in the Washington Examiner (above), first I know nothing of this paper and if anyone does please speak up. In the article is a claim by a Hans Kristensen who is the director of the nuclear weapons committee of the Federation of American Scientists that the US keeps 50 B-61 gravity bombs at Incirlik. I don't know anything about the FAS or if they're legit. As far as I can tell Hans is a Danish Citizen although the Wiki on him lists him as residing in the US. As far as his education goes the Wiki only lists his high school (gymnasium). It therefor appears that Hans is neither American or a scientist.

The US will neither confirm or deny the claim but if true, in my opinion that would be nuts. President Erdogan declared the other day that evolution will no longer be taught in schools, as an example of what kind of guy he is. It's just a matter of time before Turkey is kicked out of NATO. Beginning with the second Iraq war they have been becoming more and more difficult to deal with and I don't think we (the US) should be selling them advanced weaponry anymore and should be removing our assets from same. The diplomats will not like that idea or at least will want paint a good face on it as I believe the main reason Turkey was admitted to NATO was to get them to stop having wars with Greece and to promote their once friendly relations with Israel.


Turkey was admitted in NATO (and had its economy funded immensely) in order to pull it away from communism.

The US put nukes in Turkey before the Cuban crisis. This caused the USSR to put their nukes in Cuba in order to get the US ones removed from Turkey. At least this is the way USSR claimed the whole thing happened.

I don't think that Turkey will get kicked out from NATO anytime soon. Unless Erdogan goes completely nuts. They are too close to today's hotspot.

And the US was already secretly planning to remove those a-bombs from Turkey when the Cuban missile crisis occurred, and JFK publicly agreed to remove the bombs to give the Russians a face-saving "win". I highly doubt the US has put nukes there since then. The region is just too unstable and there are plenty of long-range nukes to do what nukes in Turkey could do.

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/26/2017 2:56:21 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: tarkalak


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Concerning an article in the Washington Examiner (above), first I know nothing of this paper and if anyone does please speak up. In the article is a claim by a Hans Kristensen who is the director of the nuclear weapons committee of the Federation of American Scientists that the US keeps 50 B-61 gravity bombs at Incirlik. I don't know anything about the FAS or if they're legit. As far as I can tell Hans is a Danish Citizen although the Wiki on him lists him as residing in the US. As far as his education goes the Wiki only lists his high school (gymnasium). It therefor appears that Hans is neither American or a scientist.

The US will neither confirm or deny the claim but if true, in my opinion that would be nuts. President Erdogan declared the other day that evolution will no longer be taught in schools, as an example of what kind of guy he is. It's just a matter of time before Turkey is kicked out of NATO. Beginning with the second Iraq war they have been becoming more and more difficult to deal with and I don't think we (the US) should be selling them advanced weaponry anymore and should be removing our assets from same. The diplomats will not like that idea or at least will want paint a good face on it as I believe the main reason Turkey was admitted to NATO was to get them to stop having wars with Greece and to promote their once friendly relations with Israel.


Turkey was admitted in NATO (and had its economy funded immensely) in order to pull it away from communism.

The US put nukes in Turkey before the Cuban crisis. This caused the USSR to put their nukes in Cuba in order to get the US ones removed from Turkey. At least this is the way USSR claimed the whole thing happened.

I don't think that Turkey will get kicked out from NATO anytime soon. Unless Erdogan goes completely nuts. They are too close to today's hotspot.

And the US was already secretly planning to remove those a-bombs from Turkey when the Cuban missile crisis occurred, and JFK publicly agreed to remove the bombs to give the Russians a face-saving "win". I highly doubt the US has put nukes there since then. The region is just too unstable and there are plenty of long-range nukes to do what nukes in Turkey could do.


Yup.

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/26/2017 3:57:23 PM   
MakeeLearn


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From Aug 18, 2016 (updated: Aug 31, 2016)

US moves nuclear weapons from Turkey to Romania


http://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/us-moves-nuclear-weapons-from-turkey-to-romania/

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/26/2017 4:07:12 PM   
BillBrown


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disregard

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/26/2017 4:34:28 PM   
AW1Steve


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B-61 GP tactical nuclear bombs are stashed, per NATO agreement , in a number of countries that did not have nukes of their own. Turkey is one such nation. The USAF controls the bomb , guards it, it has permissive action links (just like the big one's) controlled by the US National command authority , and further more has a special disabling feature on each bomb. A small key pad is attached , which may have a code punched in, permanently disabling the bomb. Supposedly the weapon can returned to the manufacturer where a process exist to restore it to working order.

Keep in mind that these are very small weapons in the low kiloton range. The weapon has a "dial-a-yield" function , allowing various kiloton yield amounts.

I take this to read that even if a NATO country goes rogue , the weapon is useless without PAL's , and can be made even more useless by using the disabling keypad.

I don't know about you lot, but this makes me feel a whole lot better. It actually sounds like the Pentagon has considered this possibility, and come up with several plans to deal with it.

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/26/2017 4:35:38 PM   
MakeeLearn


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I think the crux of this thread is that someone wants their own nuke.

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/26/2017 4:42:29 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn


I think the crux of this thread is that someone wants their own nuke.



There used to be a saying in the 1970's that the Pentagon was afraid of "A kook with a nuke". Imagine how terrified they would be of "a kooky GORN with a nuke!". Daffy Khadaffy would hold nothing on him.

Anyhow , the title of the Thread is Nukes in Turkey? I'm saying 1) yes , there definitely are and 2) they probably are not much of a threat. Gorn's playing around with "Doc Brown nuclear fission chemistry sets" however probably are. Time for me to relocate back to Florida. I currently live too close to the blast radius.


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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/26/2017 5:17:12 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

From Aug 18, 2016 (updated: Aug 31, 2016)

US moves nuclear weapons from Turkey to Romania


http://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/us-moves-nuclear-weapons-from-turkey-to-romania/


Consider the source of this article, MakeeLearn. I don't take this at face value.

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/26/2017 5:20:18 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn


I think the crux of this thread is that someone wants their own nuke.


Well, yeah.

You can start with the list of every country in the world. Subtract the acknowledged nuclear powers. Subtract Israel. Subtract a relatively small handful of countries that have disavowed nuclear arms publicly forevermore. Add in non-state terrorist organizations that would like a nuke of their very own. There's your list. It's a big one.

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/26/2017 6:06:46 PM   
MakeeLearn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

From Aug 18, 2016 (updated: Aug 31, 2016)

US moves nuclear weapons from Turkey to Romania


http://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/us-moves-nuclear-weapons-from-turkey-to-romania/


Consider the source of this article, MakeeLearn. I don't take this at face value.




That's what I was hinting at... Nuke here.. Nuke there... Find the Nuke... What Nuke

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 6/26/2017 6:12:00 PM >

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/26/2017 6:11:00 PM   
MakeeLearn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn


I think the crux of this thread is that someone wants their own nuke.


Well, yeah.

You can start with the list of every country in the world. Subtract the acknowledged nuclear powers. Subtract Israel. Subtract a relatively small handful of countries that have disavowed nuclear arms publicly forevermore. Add in non-state terrorist organizations that would like a nuke of their very own. There's your list. It's a big one.


I was referring to a certain thread starter.

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/26/2017 10:14:03 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

From Aug 18, 2016 (updated: Aug 31, 2016)

US moves nuclear weapons from Turkey to Romania


http://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/us-moves-nuclear-weapons-from-turkey-to-romania/


Consider the source of this article, MakeeLearn. I don't take this at face value.




That's what I was hinting at... Nuke here.. Nuke there... Find the Nuke... What Nuke

Tom Clancy's "Sum of All Fears" posits terrorists getting their hands on an Israeli nuke and harvesting the plutonium core, then manufacturing the rest of the bomb. Even if the fail-safe mechanism on those bombs disables a fission reaction (by blowing apart the nuclear material into chunks too small to achieve fission), the bad guys could still make a dirty A-bomb.
With all the cruise missiles and ballistic missile nukes, I simply don't see a reason to put tac nukes so far forward when there is no imminent threat that would require them. Making Russia nervous about a first strike is not the same as deterring them.

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/26/2017 10:30:46 PM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn


I think the crux of this thread is that someone wants their own nuke.



There used to be a saying in the 1970's that the Pentagon was afraid of "A kook with a nuke". Imagine how terrified they would be of "a kooky GORN with a nuke!". Daffy Khadaffy would hold nothing on him.

Anyhow , the title of the Thread is Nukes in Turkey? I'm saying 1) yes , there definitely are and 2) they probably are not much of a threat. Gorn's playing around with "Doc Brown nuclear fission chemistry sets" however probably are. Time for me to relocate back to Florida. I currently live too close to the blast radius.



Hell, they don't even let me play around with disrupter beams.

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/26/2017 10:33:44 PM   
geofflambert


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Oh, those were Jupiter missiles in Turkey back in '62, not bombs.

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/26/2017 10:41:01 PM   
Mobeer


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Some more critical analysis of whether the transfer happened:
http://www.nationalsecurity.news/2016-08-22-did-the-u-s-transfer-its-nuclear-bombs-from-turkey-to-romania-because-of-recent-coup-attempt.html

While the Washington Post believe the weapons have not been moved:
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/should-the-us-pull-its-nuclear-weapons-out-of-turkey/article/2626787

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/27/2017 2:13:43 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mobeer

Some more critical analysis of whether the transfer happened:
http://www.nationalsecurity.news/2016-08-22-did-the-u-s-transfer-its-nuclear-bombs-from-turkey-to-romania-because-of-recent-coup-attempt.html

While the Washington Post believe the weapons have not been moved:
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/should-the-us-pull-its-nuclear-weapons-out-of-turkey/article/2626787

That second link is the Washington Examiner, not the Washington Post. I have no idea of the credentials of the Examiner.
It does seem to make it clear that leaving the nukes in Turkey is a political, symbolic gesture, saying that "Turkey is still a valued and trusted NATO ally". We'll see.

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/27/2017 4:20:47 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

That second link is the Washington Examiner, not the Washington Post. I have no idea of the credentials of the Examiner.
It does seem to make it clear that leaving the nukes in Turkey is a political, symbolic gesture, saying that "Turkey is still a valued and trusted NATO ally". We'll see.


It's in Wikipedia. The story jibes with what I know of them.

The issue goes back to the question of nukes in Turkey. The author doesn't know they're there. Nobody on this forum does either. Anybody who DOES know doesn't say.

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/27/2017 12:29:00 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

That second link is the Washington Examiner, not the Washington Post. I have no idea of the credentials of the Examiner.
It does seem to make it clear that leaving the nukes in Turkey is a political, symbolic gesture, saying that "Turkey is still a valued and trusted NATO ally". We'll see.


It's in Wikipedia. The story jibes with what I know of them.

The issue goes back to the question of nukes in Turkey. The author doesn't know they're there. Nobody on this forum does either. Anybody who DOES know doesn't say.


Does anyone really know anything? Could everything we know be a lie? He'll for all I know , we could be living in the matrix (no pun intended toward our sponsor of this forum). All I know , is what I read from the political and official statements issued by NATO and the US Department of defense. And that common sense says that if you have a weapon for the purpose of defense and deterrent, you really, kind of have to let your opponent know that it exists. And the US Government hasn't been good at lying to anyone (except it's voters and to itself) since world war 2.

While Iran, North Korea, China and Russia all have a history of the use of a strong bluff, the USA? Not so much.

As I said , these MK 61's are about as small and politically correct a weapon is likely to be built. Safer and more secure than a SADM (suit case nuke) , even smaller than the B-57 (general purpose weapon and Nuclear depth bomb that I'm familiar with....it has no disabling device). So it's relatively easy to move (via aircraft) but not too easy (not man portable) small (but better than a nuke "hand grenade" like the horrible Davy Crocket) and very easy to render useless. All-in-all, I find it a very reasonable story and one that I have little trouble in accepting.

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/27/2017 7:52:03 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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I might believe it too. But I don't know.

I spent three years on a nuclear-weapon-capable sub. I never saw one. I once saw reentry bodies on a "bus" when an A-weaps let me peek behind the curtain on a maintenance op. (He shouldn't have; I didn't have enough clearance.) But for all I know those bullets were full of candy, piñata-style.

The US never confirms or denies. Has been so since the 1950s. The only time I recall there was an official (sort of) confirm was when we took the tac nukes off the skimmers. ASROC. I believe the president confirmed himself. That wasn't an accident though; it was an official backhand message to the USSR.

FAS historically has had great sources. I read a lot of their stuff back in the 90s, and it agreed with stuff I knew first-hand. But they don't "know" where the nukes are. And where there may have been nukes in the past does not mean they're there today, or might not be back next week. It's a shell game.

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/27/2017 8:09:08 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I might believe it too. But I don't know.

I spent three years on a nuclear-weapon-capable sub. I never saw one. I once saw reentry bodies on a "bus" when an A-weaps let me peek behind the curtain on a maintenance op. (He shouldn't have; I didn't have enough clearance.) But for all I know those bullets were full of candy, piñata-style.

The US never confirms or denies. Has been so since the 1950s. The only time I recall there was an official (sort of) confirm was when we took the tac nukes off the skimmers. ASROC. I believe the president confirmed himself. That wasn't an accident though; it was an official backhand message to the USSR.

FAS historically has had great sources. I read a lot of their stuff back in the 90s, and it agreed with stuff I knew first-hand. But they don't "know" where the nukes are. And where there may have been nukes in the past does not mean they're there today, or might not be back next week. It's a shell game.

There you and I must differ, as I ALWAYS knew where the Nukes were in the Navy. Where ever there were armed Marines. And when ever you saw Marines in armored personnel carriers escorting trailers, you KNEW where the Nukes where. Whenever I was at Kings Bay , or Bangor WA , I knew EXACTLY where the nukes where. They sure as hell were NOT guarding the Admiral's crispy crème shipment!

The USAF have a particular security troop that does the same thing. The only other things they guard are flag officer an certain "specialized" aircraft (particularly certain boxes on those aircraft).


Besides , I'd much rather believe that they are storing mini nukes at a Long term friend and established base , then at a newly gained ally (who is a former enemy) at a bare bones base within waking distance of Russia. It's just the romantic in me.

By the way , I never carried actual nukes...but I for some incredibly stupid reason I was on a "load team", practicing with "shapes". For less than a week. As we were loading a "shape" into a plane in the hanger, the skipper dropped over to say hello. As he'd just started up the ladder to topside , he came to a complete freeze , and visibly cringed. I think it had something to do with the God-awful clang ringing throughout the hangar, reverberating off the metal walls. There was a whole new team assigned immediately , with us all being found other "collateral duties". But we could honestly say that we "dropped a nuke (shape). Unfortunately , we dropped it on the hangar floor.

< Message edited by AW1Steve -- 6/27/2017 8:10:11 PM >


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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/27/2017 8:24:48 PM   
Lecivius


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"Now that's funny, right there"

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/27/2017 10:20:09 PM   
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I dunno, every time I see a gorn female I haven't seen before I start building a nest.

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/28/2017 3:09:59 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

By the way , I never carried actual nukes...but I for some incredibly stupid reason I was on a "load team", practicing with "shapes". For less than a week. As we were loading a "shape" into a plane in the hanger, the skipper dropped over to say hello. As he'd just started up the ladder to topside , he came to a complete freeze , and visibly cringed. I think it had something to do with the God-awful clang ringing throughout the hangar, reverberating off the metal walls. There was a whole new team assigned immediately , with us all being found other "collateral duties". But we could honestly say that we "dropped a nuke (shape). Unfortunately , we dropped it on the hangar floor.



Sounds like a great way to terminate your participation in boring drills! Was it your idea to drop the "N-shape"?

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/28/2017 12:45:57 PM   
morganbj


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Oh, those were Jupiter missiles in Turkey back in '62, not bombs.

I'm glad someone actually knows.

It wasn't nukes that were the issue, it was the delivery system.

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/28/2017 1:57:23 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

By the way , I never carried actual nukes...but I for some incredibly stupid reason I was on a "load team", practicing with "shapes". For less than a week. As we were loading a "shape" into a plane in the hanger, the skipper dropped over to say hello. As he'd just started up the ladder to topside , he came to a complete freeze , and visibly cringed. I think it had something to do with the God-awful clang ringing throughout the hangar, reverberating off the metal walls. There was a whole new team assigned immediately , with us all being found other "collateral duties". But we could honestly say that we "dropped a nuke (shape). Unfortunately , we dropped it on the hangar floor.



Sounds like a great way to terminate your participation in boring drills! Was it your idea to drop the "N-shape"?



Heck no. I was a very young (20 year old) very junior (just made E-3/ AWAN) and extremely stupid individual. Which was the only reason I was there to begin with. As the only E-3 in the squadron every single work center , department and semi-organized Mob was trying to get me for their "skut work". NOBODY listened to me. Hell, even I didn't listen to me.

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RE: Nukes in Turkey? - 6/28/2017 2:02:52 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Oh, those were Jupiter missiles in Turkey back in '62, not bombs.

I'm glad someone actually knows.

It wasn't nukes that were the issue, it was the delivery system.


In this case actually it was the nukes. The Jupiter was a very obsolete system that was supposed to have been replaced already. The Russians were more put out by the concept than the actual weapon. Jupiter took a long time to fuel and ready before firing , and couldn't be fired from a silo. Like the Thor , and Atlas missiles , liquid fueled medium and short range missiles had a very low probability of survival. But the USSR considered their presence to be a bit of an insult.

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