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U-boats not a menace - 4/13/2017 2:18:24 AM   
battlevonwar

 

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(It is easier to Raid with The Allies than the Axis in many instances)

Unfortunately if you have played as many games as I have played you've come to realize a sad fact. U-boats in most instances are not really good for convoy raiding in the Atlantic at all. Unless you're up against an inferior opponent with little knowledge to how the mechanics of sea battles work(I'm still a rookie after 6 PBEM games and this observation is fully revealed to me)

it's not cost effective nor even a good idea!

The fact is, hunting them is predictable, and you don't require a high level of ASW to damage one or detect one. It may be hard to kill one but you can surround and drive them off quite easily without much of an issue. There are a few rare instances when they can be used when you know where the enemy fleet is but the best use of U-boats is actually as the Japanese used them in surface fleet action. Cause on their own out there they're sitting ducks and anyone who has played as much as me can see this a mile away. Even rookies tend to hunt down my wolfpacks(in 1.3 even easily)

Tech is of little consequence!

Now as far as CV-Battleship Killers, scouts I love U-boats for this and screens. Though for Convoy raiding they are opportunistic at best, they cost too much, they get surrounded(then locked in a hex and cannot escape) then their supply is so low they cannot operate out of that sector.

U-boats are far from a menace once a player learns the 2nd grade naval academy.

(added)
So people do not go off on a tangent here let me explain the U-boat is expensive(though say Germany gets a ton) they must be reinforced when damaged and upgraded. The upgrades I've noted to Advanced Subs 2 don't change much. When out to sea they lose supply and when engaged they also lose supply. To run from a bad situation in silent is really of not much use either cause it's a short run and they get caught, boxed in. They can dish out some damage here but without a surface fleet(airpower) u-boats don't work well alone in the Atlantic. They sort of melt if they meet a determined fleet. Rarely is the RN or French Navy tied up and by '42, it's all over instantly!

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 4/13/2017 2:44:32 AM >
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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/13/2017 10:11:55 AM   
vonik

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

It may be hard to kill one .


Indeed quite hard .
An U boat at readiness 0 and strength 1 can still survive 10 attacks and even inflict casualties .
This is an ability that no other sea unit has but of course if the U boats are alone without surface fleet support, they will always loose against a destroyer/carrier fleet which outnumbers them .
However raiding is still quite efficient in the first years when UK struggles with its few MPPS .

Otherwise I agree, once USA enter war if the U boats still dare to raid, they'll get wiped out .

(in reply to battlevonwar)
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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/13/2017 1:34:56 PM   
battlevonwar

 

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Vonik, agreed, very survivable, but how much does that cost? Say in our game, I raided what, 50-100 MPPs? You destroyed 1 U-boat and a Surface Cruiser Raider at zero loss in ships(say you lost 150-200 MPPs, I lost nearly 600-700MPPs) Who Won that battle? You feel entirely safe till France falls so U-boats are no menace till say after Sept. Oct 40. then Winter sets in so no threat of Sea Lion for a bit. Again then U-boats are not very useful for raiding and but for a narrow window. Also Destroyers are very cheap!

Gotta face it in our game I'm at the Platte River with the Graf Spee trying to escape and do a little fun raiding and there is no happy times to be had. Your RN came in like on a magical carpet ride and ate me, and yea, it was tough? Dive(1 Supply and cannot run, cannot hide, cause it will bump an enemy ship, no sea resupply when U-boats did repair and did resupply at sea)

Now if you stay out at sea with the entire Royal Navy during a few points in the game that's going to get you a Sea Lion. Though it's upwards of 30 or 35 ships if you're a good Economist. Germany doesn't have the resources to devote to The Battle of the Atlantic and be strong elsewhere either.

The trade off isn't worth the investment and u-boats become lemmings a little too early for my tastes!

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 4/13/2017 1:38:39 PM >

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/13/2017 2:44:02 PM   
Trump2016

 

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U-Boats are best used with surface ships, combined with land air can be used effectively to conduct Sea-lion, the mechanics of the game make it that way, its too bad with the huge map that is wasn't just u-boats against DD/Air as per historical, why would you want to convoy raid for small amounts of MPP, when you can damage/sink anything else for a higher return?

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/13/2017 3:51:26 PM   
MemoryLeak


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You are preaching to the choir. I've complained about the lack of realism and effectiveness of U-boats since the
beginning. Unfortunately I don't believe the programmers are listening.

Impossible to conduct a U-boat campaign that is cost-effective. I kept track of it one game and did manage to
cost the Allies over 1500 MPP's. Then my U--boats were all sunk or heavily damaged and I couldn't afford to
repair or replace them because I was fighting on two fronts.

I would like to see the Allied destroyers required to go back to port every two to three turns to keep them
from darting all over the Atlantic for years without returning to port.

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/13/2017 5:12:54 PM   
James Taylor

 

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What if?  You could actually keep the USSR out of the war!  How about the USA, keeping their convoys to UK, but not becoming an actual belligerent.

What if you could fight the Germans to a stalemate in France?

Think of it, would it make a difference in the Battle of the Atlantic?  Would it cut down on unit density?

All could be done with Diplomacy and then add in intel and espionage.  Would you spend your MPPs there instead of units and research?

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/13/2017 5:31:13 PM   
battlevonwar

 

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MemoryLeak,

indeed, no use of U-boats in major raiding. Destroyers are too powerful as is the way that U-boats interact with them. A U-boat becomes boxed in and has nowhere to run. The way the supply system works and diving system works they cannot escape once the ALLIED opponent learns the 101 of killing U-boats. They are best suited to anything but Raiding except in a few rare exceptions.

Only the most amateur opponent is incapable of hunting down and wiping out a fleet of 2 - 3 u-boats

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 4/13/2017 5:32:35 PM >

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/13/2017 5:52:00 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

Unfortunately I don't believe the programmers are listening.

What a terrible thing to say.

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/13/2017 7:12:08 PM   
Leadwieght

 

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It seems like everyone is describing results of the Battle of the Atlantic that sound a lot like the historical course of that campaign. U-boats cause significant loses until the Allies can create large hunter-killer groups. GB is most vulnerable to tonnage war in the first 2-3 years of the war, then not so much. U-boats are generally not capable of defeating the RN on their own.
Not sure these results are so bad.
Anybody tried building a few extra u-boats beyond the pre-set production ? I am curious if it tips the balance or hurts GB more.

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/13/2017 9:39:37 PM   
vonik

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leadwieght

Anybody tried building a few extra u-boats beyond the pre-set production ? I am curious if it tips the balance or hurts GB more.


I did for a test with a friend . The U boats ripped the RN apart .
15 U boats with the KM and RM united .
Admittedly I got Spain on my side, Gibraltar open and the East Front was more or less won .
So I was just building U boats since start 1942 - a few raided to get experience 1 . The rest waited to flood UK ports .
Once this mass hits , it is too late to start to build destroyers because every single UK port was closed by U boats .
In this situation the high survivability of U boats is a factor that the Allied cannot counter if he let himself to be outnumbered .

I am really against the hard cap off - this can unbalance the game in all possible ways .

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/13/2017 11:29:40 PM   
MemoryLeak


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

Unfortunately I don't believe the programmers are listening.

What a terrible thing to say.



Thank you sir, may I have another one???....

_____________________________

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/13/2017 11:46:41 PM   
Leadwieght

 

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Perhaps a useful minor tweak would be to allow U-boats that are 2 hexes from the convoy lines to cause MPP losses. It would make subs a bit harder to track down

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/14/2017 1:43:57 AM   
battlevonwar

 

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Wait folks, the programmers will listen after other issues that are far more important like game bugs and overall game balance is finally hashed out. It will take a little while of testing but lets keep it constructive.

Reality is that U-boats are a menace to the RN but not the shipping as lone wolves as Historical and I hear what some are saying that the game isn't meant to be historical in that you could have used them to sink Battleships. The Germans did go after Capitol Ships, like Scapa Flow. Though they had huge successes out there in the Seas and the reason being was that it's vast and often the UK couldn't afford to escort their Convoys cause they had too few Destroyers and too few Ships to chase down U-boats. Later that changed. Canada made a huge contribution with very cheap flimsy weak destroyers but they were better than nothing.

Here you can use your surface fleet in a gamy way to just surround and isolate lone U-boats or Submarines. Once boxed in it's sort of like holding a bully by his forehead with longer arms.. Game over for convoy raiding in any location where the RN can get to and back to it's bases in time to deal with things like Sea Lion Threats. Which for a good portion of the game it can do this.

I do know about alternate History and I'm all for it but you cannot use this weapon in the way you would have used it historically at least in the Deep Oceans of the Atlantic where it took the UK till later to figure things out. Reflective perhaps in a nerf on their abilities toward attacking u-boats on convoy raiding purely? Perhaps nerfing down U-boats effect on Capitol ships? So people do not use them as mini-battleships...or give ASW strength. Or perhaps giving the diving ability a better way to avoid a gamy method to eradicate them? I think the last is a great choice.

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/14/2017 2:12:32 AM   
Leadwieght

 

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I guess I don't see it as "gamey" (in the sense of using game mechanics to get an unfair/ahistorical result) if you, as the Allied player, concentrate 5 or 6 escorts to take out a u-boat. I thought thats how the Allies eventually won the Battle of the Atlantic--by being able to find and attack the u-boats with hunter-killer groups.

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/14/2017 2:41:04 AM   
battlevonwar

 

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Leadweight, why didn't they do it? The Allies weren't foolish they had fought WW1 and I could go into reasons why they couldn't do it because they didn't initially.

http://www.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignRoyalNavy.htm

Bottom line is other priorities and that's not here in Strategic Command, and yes it's a Grand Strategy Game but in that case the Brits/Canadians and French have too much assets free to do much stuff early on cause in 5 game turns, scrap 2 surface raiders.

As for the rest of the Kriegsmarine and U-boats, scrap cause they're going the minute you send 'em out unless you're doing Sealion. Or I'm doing D-day(and you might get 10% of my trade)

Brits had most the worlds trade ships, Brits had a MASSIVE situation that required destroyers doing crap duties everywhere. What realism lock all British Destroyers but 1 or 2 down to strength 5 for 25 game turns ... The Capitol ships aren't as good at killing raiders

U-boats didn't suffer bad till ASW and more ships could be sent out. Even then losses were heavy till way , way later. But of course the site tells perfectly why the situation went the way it did. Are there alternate strategies, sure there are. With risks? Yes! And there should be!

~look at ships/lives lost on that site. The Convoy War is part of the game for a reason, it's fun but doesn't really count as things stand cause it's hard to raid. Not impossible but a little too hard for game balance reasons. In my OPINION

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 4/14/2017 2:46:17 AM >

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/14/2017 8:26:15 AM   
DeriKuk


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Instead of having these nuke-powered Allied destroyers ... how about a Researchable TACTIC called "Convoy"? (0-3 levels @ 100MPP per level)

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/14/2017 10:59:34 AM   
vonik

 

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Well apparently the devs decided that the convoy raiding was a minor factor in the strategy game .
The consequence is that the players have to use them in another way and convoy raiding is only used to get fast and cheap experience .
There are other much more ahistorical imbalancing issues in the naval war like f.ex the hopeless Allied situation in N.Africa .

Now that the gamey French Navy suicide which used to cripple the RM was prevented (and it is a good thing), the balance went completely the other way .
The Italian navy can walk around the Mediterranean as it wants and send to N.Africa well supplied megatons of units against which the Allied can do nothing .
One actually gets a paradox that the Germano-Italian armies are much better supplied with much better moral and readiness than the Allied :)
I'd rather like that the devs spend time to add a convoy route between Italy and N.Africa which can be raided by the RN and impacts the supply of Axis .
Then the subs would start to be a threat .

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/14/2017 10:32:36 PM   
battlevonwar

 

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Actually interdicting the supplies would be really neat! Though I doubt we will get that it's a whole new mechanic!

Vonik, Brits can function in N.Africa! You have to put naval assets there and you have to add more of the right kind of units. You get a free Tank/Several Free Corps and Armies and you can easily send 2 or 3 tanks by 1941. What more do you want? If you cannot whip the Axis there then they probably cannot take Moscow cause half their military is in Egypt. If the UK cakewalks the Med(which was contested until 1942) what's the point of it? People want D-day in '42 insta D-Day

or Italy KO in '41!

the USSR as a balanced power is yet to be seen! Buffing the Western Allies to nerf the German '42 Barbie is no answer to the broader strategic question. Buffing the Russians is the best answer if necessary. I think it may be but time will tell in the next few months.

BTW: I have played a player that can KO the RM with a quarter of the RN. That leaves 75% of it to devour U-boats! Don't forget the Red Navy either which if used right can reduce the KM low.

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/14/2017 11:15:03 PM   
vonik

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar


Vonik, Brits can function in N.Africa! You have to put naval assets there and you have to add more of the right kind of units. You get a free Tank/Several Free Corps and Armies and you can easily send 2 or 3 tanks by 1941.


Of course UK can send ONE level 1 tank with 1 strike in 41 if it has this kind of MPP .
The difference is that Germany can send 1 or 2 elite Pz level 2 with 2 strikes in 1940 what is a full year earlier .
And against that no kind of naval assets can help (unless one wants to risk all carriers while Sealion is still a possibility and even that is not enough) .
These Panzers + DAK have time to be in Cairo and back for Barbarossa without breaking a sweat :)

Anyway my point was only the unrealistic supply and readiness of Axis especially Italians in N.Africa which could be f.ex threatened by RN convoy raiding if it was implemented .

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/15/2017 2:03:22 AM   
battlevonwar

 

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Vonik, agreed the British tanks are junk and you can scout with your strategic bomber and tactical bombers if Germany is redeploying East and still build and send troops to Egypt. Agreed, not that they will gain ground, heck probably barely hold onto it. Unless you research armor warfare early, if possible? I forget when that doctrine opens for the British. Historically I am guessing that should come with Monty.

Germany can drive through the Mideast with 2 or 3 tanks preferably? A bunch of Air. Though Barbarossa will be weak, so the USSR needs to hold the front line better. Just can she? Rommel probably could have eaten the cake there with all the tanks and supplies he wanted but the cost has to cost the Germans a Massive Barbarossa that gets them to the gates of Moscow. Now they're playing for oil? Problem is, oil isn't essential in our game.

Though maybe Devs will implement that later. That would make the British fighting for Egypt BIG. Now, not so big. I have taken Egypt and lost the game along with Persia! Basically though, I love cutting Persian Gulf Supplies to the USSR, who doesn't?

How big and bad do the Soviets get, what kind of skilled player can offset the seemingly OP German Blitzkrieg. Is she too OP? Is that where the true weakness in the Allies is? I am feeling that more so(brits had their butts handed to them by a few baby German Divisions until 1942 historically in Africa) How about having to pay as Germany to keep the supply lines open? More trucks, less MPPs for the USSR?

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 4/15/2017 7:13:07 PM >

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/15/2017 11:46:36 AM   
vonik

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

Vonik, agreed the British tanks are junk ...

Yes . They don't get armored warfare let alone tanks 2 before mid 41 . And there is infantery 2 to research too .
And there are air and naval losses to reinforce . Not enough MPP for all that . Even mid 41 is optimistic .

quote:


Germany can drive through the Mideast with 2 or 3 tanks preferably?


No it works like that - counting round 0 with arrival of DAK .
Round 0 : arrival of DAK, its reinforcements to full . An elite PzD strength 11 arrives too (with 2 it is even faster)
Round 1 : Approach to front (presumably El Alamein) . If it is at Tobruk, the Allied is already doomed .
Round 2 : Panzers are at 2- 3 hexes from the front
Round 3 : Assault . The 2 (3) Panzers deliver 4 (6) strikes and kill 1 UK Army . Bombers stay in reserve for HQ if spotted .
Round 4 : If the Brits try to counter, they are dead . So they retreat to Alexandria . Italian infantry closes in , Pz follow .
Round 5 : The Panzers deliver again 4 (6) strikes and kill 1 UK corps . With luck 2 . The UK front evaporated .
Round 6 : The 1 (2) elite Pz move to Tobruk .
Round 7 : The 1 (2) Panzers are transported to Italy then operated to the Ostfront .
Round 8 : The Pz are safe and ready in time for Barbarossa . The DAK and Italians deal with what is left of the Brits who will probably evacuate now everything that still can to Atlantic anyway ..

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/15/2017 1:26:02 PM   
IrishGuards


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well if we look at the actual convoy system, or lack thereof in the early stages of the war in the UK/France case.
Allies had no convoys in 39 and not until early 40 were they protected by western approaches, coastal command and such.
On turn 1 the allies full OOB can just trash the norway convoy to Germany, basically sinking norway and sweden ships and
goods, without any political fallout or blowback, need some cause n effect here eh'
Allied ships were not concentrated to hunt Uboats they were escorting ships and troops.
Instead of the convoy research and such go with the events, formation of convoys and escorts, western approaches,
coastal command, escort cv's and then VLRB, closing the mid atlantic gap as events that once reached have relevance.

I still like random T1 Uboat placement so to speak, adds a layer of FoW.
the one aspect of the Uboat game is initiative, he who starts well has an advantage, if KM causes the RN some damage to
surprised ships and then some convoy's so then there ahead of the game.
If your gonna raid every turn with Uboats, then your gonna be in for it.
Gotta hide n then turn up hopefully where the allies arent!
IG

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/15/2017 2:54:19 PM   
PrinceMiskin

 

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What if subs could dive away 3 hexes instead of 1? Wouldn't be harder to track and surround?

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/15/2017 3:57:04 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

Instead of the convoy research and such go with the events, formation of convoys and escorts, western approaches,
coastal command, escort cv's and then VLRB, closing the mid atlantic gap as events that once reached have relevance.

Could you elaborate a little, because I'm not sure what you mean.

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/15/2017 7:18:32 PM   
battlevonwar

 

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I think I have a game going with 10 Axis Subs in total so far. I believe the British have raided more convoys in total than I have or close to the same amount. I really love your take on it. It's hard to raid, not impossible but I am doing the math, Germany doesn't benefit financially from doing it I don't think. With tech, upgrades, losses and actual damage dealt and in the end the few convoys they raid. It's cost ineffective to try... For the Allies Raiding is easy they have a Surface navy to assist it and can do so with impunity, if it's any sign my opponent has a 3 Star Sub near Norway! (boy talk about what the Axis Subs should look like by '42)


quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishGuards

well if we look at the actual convoy system, or lack thereof in the early stages of the war in the UK/France case.
Allies had no convoys in 39 and not until early 40 were they protected by western approaches, coastal command and such.
On turn 1 the allies full OOB can just trash the norway convoy to Germany, basically sinking norway and sweden ships and
goods, without any political fallout or blowback, need some cause n effect here eh'
Allied ships were not concentrated to hunt Uboats they were escorting ships and troops.
Instead of the convoy research and such go with the events, formation of convoys and escorts, western approaches,
coastal command, escort cv's and then VLRB, closing the mid atlantic gap as events that once reached have relevance.

I still like random T1 Uboat placement so to speak, adds a layer of FoW.
the one aspect of the Uboat game is initiative, he who starts well has an advantage, if KM causes the RN some damage to
surprised ships and then some convoy's so then there ahead of the game.
If your gonna raid every turn with Uboats, then your gonna be in for it.
Gotta hide n then turn up hopefully where the allies arent!
IG




< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 4/15/2017 7:19:41 PM >

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/15/2017 7:22:32 PM   
battlevonwar

 

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Vonik, you won't want to hear this but I got you cause you let me get you. This is the deal(the first turn you can build a Engineer send him to Egypt and build a fortress line and this is less an issue) Send all Fighters to Egypt and this is a weaker point. Send half the RN to Egypt and you can pound any Italians and Germans that use the Coast to flank, that narrow strip of Bikini line is holdable. I have done so against a very able opponent mind you plan to lose half the Western Desert Army or more! :/ but then again that sorta happened historically. I see no other answer here, the British cannot own the Med in '41 but no, she has zilch for attack power on land till '42(Alternatively go on the offense in Libya earlier, DAK doesn't come till later) Though Forget France! and Risk reinforcements(use the RN)

There are options not great ones just options and they will weaken the Allies! Time, time, time is on your side! But not in the USSR so forget Egypt and the MidEast, not like Panzers need it to run!

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 4/15/2017 7:25:32 PM >

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/16/2017 11:37:55 AM   
vonik

 

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Well all I say is that a good Axis player destroys the UK in Egypt in spring 41 if he decides to do so and there is nothing the Brits can do against it .

The good Axis players I played almost always choose to take Egypt before Barbarossa and sent to Libya what was needed to achieve that goal (HQ, fighters, bombers and Panzers) .
UK engineers, RN and fighters are irrelevant because neither can prevent the 6 Pz strikes per round which are enough to anihilate any UK unit in one round . And I don't even mention artillery and the infantery units that can pile up damage too .
If the UK player still survives in Africa end 41, it is a big victory because time works for him and he will never see such a crisis as end 1940 anymore .
Eventually a surviving Allied will go on offensive depending on what is happening in Russia and how the Italian vs Brit research looks like .

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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/16/2017 11:30:08 PM   
battlevonwar

 

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Vonik, my whole point. I'm in Leningrad in September with you and I am in Rostov soon as well. Game is going to be over for Christmas and I could have Libya too. British actually fight better than the Russians in 1941.

The only part of the game I find tough at all is France and the Naval War. Honestly! I wonder if one can even hold Moscow or Stalingrad? Can they? Someone really nerfed the U-boats and Buffed the Tanks and Bombers! Too much endless Armies with weapons II. Russian Fortified Cities are the only thing that makes it tough at all. N.Africa is a nightmare for Supply. It takes longer to take Persia than it does Moscow in actual months!

Grand Campaign will need some look over but Egypt should be a HUGE contention point as should the Battle of the Atlantic. Subs in the early days should be like invisible nightmares and Rommel pushed all the way to Alexandria with a tiny little army....

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 4/16/2017 11:33:22 PM >

(in reply to vonik)
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RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/17/2017 11:26:10 AM   
vonik

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

I wonder if one can even hold Moscow or Stalingrad? Can they?


No . Even aginst a very average Axis player, Leningrad and Moscow always fall in 41 . Stalingrad may survive but it's only because the Pz need time to drive there .
The war against Russia is so easy simply because the Russian looses MANY more units than what he gets as reinforcement .
So the Red Army evaporates and by October the Russian has less than 10 units on the whole map !
This is of course very ahistorical because in reality the Red Army had a massive inflow of new units to the Leningrad&Moscow area while whole German Panzerkorps were reduced to a few dozens of operational Panzers when they arrived there .
That's why Taifun was a failure - the German were attrited and vastly outnumbered by the Russians .

quote:


Grand Campaign will need some look over but Egypt should be a HUGE contention point as should the Battle of the Atlantic.


That is exactly what I was saying . Currently Axis wins in Africa as easily as in Russia . Actually even if the German army in the game was much smaller it would still win easily in Egypt and in Russia if the German player plays correctly .
Finally the whole game is basically only about the Atlantic and the UK .
It is only there that the German must show some skill especially if he lost his subs and the US had time to produce enough units .

(in reply to battlevonwar)
Post #: 29
RE: U-boats not a menace - 4/18/2017 2:06:30 AM   
battlevonwar

 

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Vonik, yes the U-boat war is strange(go raid a turn, get found by 8 destroyers, ping-ping-ping, slowly die). Though the Wars in the East over The USSR are very easy for the Axis. 10 Units is about right! You haven't convinced me about Egypt :P there are ways to stop the Germans there it just cost MPPs. I have experienced losing Egypt as the Axis and winning the war. Also I have experienced holding Egypt but never see the Soviets hold against even a semi-competent Axis player.

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 4/18/2017 2:07:04 AM >

(in reply to vonik)
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