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Air defense of Berlin in June 1941

 
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Air defense of Berlin in June 1941 - 4/10/2017 2:09:50 PM   
MrBlizzard


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June the 26th, 1941.
A mass of Soviet bombers strike against panzer IIIj factory in North Berlin in full daylight for the second turn in a row.

22℅ of damage against 23 bombers downed.

It means that the factory ends it's expansion till the damage is recovered.
The damage to production should be around 26 Pz IIIj not produced in next 8 turns (damage should be completely recovered except new raids).

What can I do to prevent these strikes?
- to increase flak appears difficult; AA brigades in Berlin are all concentrated in downtown - no one in Berlin north or Berlin west - and it costs a lot of APs to move them)
- to move a base with some fighters from East front? But if they bomb at night no results are gained.
- To conquer the Il-4 AF take-off? Don't know where are at the moment and they have a very long range.

Any ideas?

PS
Berlin didn't have any air defense in june 1941?


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RE: Air defense of Berlin in June 1941 - 4/10/2017 2:19:16 PM   
morvael


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For now there are only two options to increase protection:
1) transfer some AA there
2) move an airbase there, with some fighters

For the future I suggest adding some AA to every hex in major German cities in all scenarios where applicable, if there are none (something for Denniss).

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RE: Air defense of Berlin in June 1941 - 4/10/2017 2:20:21 PM   
morvael


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Set your fighters to BOTH night mission mode, they will protect you from night strikes as well.

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RE: Air defense of Berlin in June 1941 - 4/10/2017 2:20:57 PM   
Stelteck

 

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Very interesting tactics indeed

If you put an airfield with intercepter squadrons close to the town it will intercept in my opinion. Without escort the ennemy bombers will have a hard time.

Fighters can intercept at night too. (And night damage is far lower than day damage in bombing).




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RE: Air defense of Berlin in June 1941 - 4/10/2017 3:28:37 PM   
MrBlizzard


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Nice advices thanks!
What planes would you choose for Berlin defense, old bf 109E, newer bf109f or bf110?

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RE: Air defense of Berlin in June 1941 - 4/10/2017 3:44:14 PM   
Telemecus


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Depends on altitude of russian bombers attacking but otherwise go for bf110 -they are better used where there are no Soviet fighters.

If it is a persistent problem the best defence is recon to find the airbase and at least night bombing to disrupt/damage/fatigue/reduce morale and the bombing will stop. Once you have found airbases make sure every turn they have a detection level of 2 and you will never lose sight of them again. Unlike Soviets Axis do not lack recon.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 4/10/2017 3:53:11 PM >

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RE: Air defense of Berlin in June 1941 - 4/10/2017 4:13:01 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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@Telemecus: Very interesting thread...
You should immediately withdraw the entire German airforce to defend Ploesti, Berlin, Dresden etc. or the Red Airforce will bomb you into submission.

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RE: Air defense of Berlin in June 1941 - 4/11/2017 9:01:18 AM   
Denniss

 

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Great, more work. Will look into Flak Rgts, at leat properly distribute the ones in Berlin.
I'd really like to add the Flaktowers in Berlin/Vienna pending we get them to work properly (no move/reassigning/Disbanding, adding element protection if in combat and elimination without rebuild if land combat lost with high odds.
Adding airbases is no problem, limiting them to their designated use (area protection of german industry) is as players may disband them for manpower and the AI shuffling them around instead. Freezing may not work as one can't move units in or out.
Identifying air units that preotected these areas will be another problem.

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RE: Air defense of Berlin in June 1941 - 4/11/2017 1:05:24 PM   
MrBlizzard


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Wow nice Denniss! Would be great if you can also manage to create flaktowers


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RE: Air defense of Berlin in June 1941 - 4/11/2017 3:12:50 PM   
Balou


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The Flak Rgts in Vienna and Berlin: aren't they actually a sorrow substitute for Flak Towers? Because one can still - although at a high AP cost - move Flak regiments out to front HQs.

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RE: Air defense of Berlin in June 1941 - 4/11/2017 3:24:21 PM   
Stelteck

 

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Not sûre if Flak is so important, as fighters will already destroy ennemy unescorted bombing raids.

Long range bombers such as IL-4 have not a very important production soviet side.

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RE: Air defense of Berlin in June 1941 - 4/11/2017 4:33:14 PM   
Denniss

 

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Creating a Flaktower OB (precisely: copying the base OB from WitW and adjust for our needs) is not the problem, we have to create special rules for them. It's a lot of effort for not much to get back but at least it would add some flavor.
Compared to area defense Flak Regiments the gun equipment of a Flaktower was rather small with four heavy caliber guns (later dual-barrel heavy guns) and ~30 light flak (20mm quad/37mm). Area defense Rgts had ~140-200 guns spread to multiple subunits.

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RE: Air defense of Berlin in June 1941 - 4/11/2017 8:43:59 PM   
Icier


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard

June the 26th, 1941.
A mass of Soviet bombers strike against panzer IIIj factory in North Berlin in full daylight for the second turn in a row.

22¨G of damage against 23 bombers downed.

It means that the factory ends it's expansion till the damage is recovered.
The damage to production should be around 26 Pz IIIj not produced in next 8 turns (damage should be completely recovered except new raids).

What can I do to prevent these strikes?
- to increase flak appears difficult; AA brigades in Berlin are all concentrated in downtown - no one in Berlin north or Berlin west - and it costs a lot of APs to move them)
- to move a base with some fighters from East front? But if they bomb at night no results are gained.
- To conquer the Il-4 AF take-off? Don't know where are at the moment and they have a very long range.

Any ideas?

PS
Berlin didn't have any air defense in june 1941?



No offense, but congratulations to your opponent (who is it) for thinking outside of the box..its not a tactic I would have
thought of.



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RE: Air defense of Berlin in June 1941 - 4/12/2017 7:13:01 AM   
MrBlizzard


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You're right he's a good and imaginative opponent, almost unknown here on Matrix forum, named aldiladeisosogni1.

@Denniss, I've found this nice source for starting location of all flak regiment s in the Reich
Link to ww2.dk
It seems there are some improvements to present situation that can be made.

PS if can be useful I can make a flak regiment list with location in June 1941

< Message edited by MrBlizzard -- 4/12/2017 7:19:07 AM >


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RE: Air defense of Berlin in June 1941 - 4/12/2017 11:50:01 AM   
Denniss

 

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Flak-Regiment 3 - 6/42: Stettin
Flak-Regiment 22 - Berlin-Süd
Flak-Regiment 28 - Wien
Flak-Regiment 31 - Königsberg (until 11/43)
Flak-Regiment 33 - Halle-Leuna
Flak-Regiment 50 - 8/43: Rostock, 2/44: Bohmte/Osnabrück
Flak-Regiment 51 - Stettin, 6/42:Hamburg
Flak-Regiment 52 - Magdeburg
Flak-Regiment 53 - Berlin-Heiligensee
Flak-Regiment 54 - 8:44: Auschwitz/Krakau
Flak-Regiment 57 - Flakgruppe Oberschlesien (Beuthen, bis 7/43)
Flak-Regiment 61 - Lübeck
Flak-Regiment 62 - Danzig
Flak-Regiment 63 - Stralsund, 7/42: Ostfriesland, 10/44: Pilsen
Flak-Regiment 76 - Bruck an der Mur (Graz)
Flak-Regiment 81 - mid 6/43: Königsberg
Flak-Regiment 88 - Wiener-Neustadt, 6/44: Brüx
Flak-Regiment 90 - Leipzig, renamed mid 44 from 300
Flak-Regiment 98 - mid 8/43: Wien
Flak-Regiment 102 - 3/44: Wien
Flak-Regiment 106 - mid 4/44: Flakgruppe Oberschlesien-West
Flak-Regiment 107 - mid 4/44: Flakgruppe Oberschlesien-Ost
Flak-Regiment 110 - 1/44: Masuren
Flak-Regiment 118 - 6/44: Linz
Flak-Regiment 120 - 8/44: Zeitz
Flak-Regiment 126 - mid/autumn 1942 Berlin-West
Flak-Regiment 128 - 9/44: Linz
Flak-Regiment 138 - Dresden
Flak-Regiment 140 - 9/43: Weimar
Flak-Regiment 143 - 4/44: Dessau
Flak-Regiment 145 - 12/44: Halle
Flak-Regiment 150 - 11/43: Breslau
Flak-Regiment 172 - 2/43: Berlin
Flak-Regiment 180 - 12/41: Ploesti
Flak-Regiment 182 - Pilsen (until 5/42)
Flak-Regiment 184 - 10/43: Pilsen
Flak-Regiment 202 - Constanta
Flak-Regiment 300 - Halle, early 42: Leipzig, renamed 90 in mid 44

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RE: Air defense of Berlin in June 1941 - 4/17/2017 8:58:35 PM   
MrBlizzard


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New turn new present!
I got bombed 2 factories instead of just one:
- stug III factory in Berlin west , 11℅ damage ( the bf109 I put in Berlin Nord didn't fly ... do fighters protect just one hex in city attack? )
- pz38(t) in Prague, 4% of damage. I had put Slovakian fighters in Prague but they didn't fly too , maybe these pesky axis allies don't want to fight for German factories? )
Any idea?

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RE: Air defense of Berlin in June 1941 - 4/17/2017 9:16:38 PM   
Denniss

 

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Day or night attacks ?
Air units flying both Day/Night missions?

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RE: Air defense of Berlin in June 1941 - 4/17/2017 9:42:44 PM   
MrBlizzard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Day or night attacks ?
Air units flying both Day/Night missions?

Day attacks both, and my units were flying both (day+night) missions

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RE: Air defense of Berlin in June 1941 - 4/18/2017 5:28:23 AM   
morvael


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Airbases in light urban or heavy urban terrain won't work.

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RE: Air defense of Berlin in June 1941 - 4/18/2017 6:12:45 AM   
MrBlizzard


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Oh thanks, I always forget about it

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RE: Air defense of Berlin in June 1941 - 4/18/2017 7:11:55 AM   
MrBlizzard


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It seems my industries will get another well deserved load of bombs next turn .

In this last attack I noticed that the motorized AA battalion I attached to Berlin Nord fired against bombers in Berlin West.
It's something looks strange to me, 'cause the other 4 rgts attached from start to Berlin don't fire at all.

< Message edited by MrBlizzard -- 4/18/2017 7:15:31 AM >


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RE: Air defense of Berlin in June 1941 - 4/18/2017 7:20:05 AM   
morvael


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AA weapons from units on the direct path from staging base to target are included automatically.
AA support units from direct HQs of those included units, within 5 hexes of said units, may be included, if they pass Initiative test.
If bombers fly high, some less powerful AA weapons may be exluded. If bombers fly low, some more powerful AA weapons may be excluded.
That's how it should be working, according to code.


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RE: Air defense of Berlin in June 1941 - 4/18/2017 7:25:47 AM   
morvael


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Also:
units attached to cities have doubled AA power
units in target hex have doubled AA power (cumulative with the above)

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