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RE: Bacon Mod - 3/18/2021 10:52:58 AM   
Noyyau

 

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Try having at least a couple of state freighters on repeating cargo missions from the closest fuel gas mining stations outside your capital system. Gas clouds work well for me if they're nearby, as they generate only one type of gas each and the ai doesn't seem to pick up much cargo from there.
Otherwise, use the !cargos command to force the freighters to pick up only the fuel you need from a mixed gas mining station.
To fix temporary shortages, ordering mining missions to gas mining ships is also useful (though not being repeatable, you'll have to reissue the order to private gas miners after they finish, or queue a bunch of missions manually to state gas miners).

< Message edited by Noyyau -- 3/18/2021 10:56:31 AM >

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Post #: 1351
RE: Bacon Mod - 4/5/2021 12:36:15 AM   
snickelb

 

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I'm running the latest version of windows. Do I still need the Windows 2004 file that was in the 1.81 release? Is the 1.82 version updated to be as compatible as possible with the latest Windows or am I better off sticking with the 1.81 special exe?

< Message edited by snickelb -- 4/5/2021 12:40:02 AM >

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Post #: 1352
RE: Bacon Mod - 4/18/2021 8:58:19 PM   
Noyyau

 

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Questions about the science explorer values in the baconsettings.txt

quote:

// Exploration ships with science labs generate this much research toward a random researchable project every month
// set this to zero to disable it.
researchPerLab=1000

This means that an explorer with a lab will generate 1k worth of research, every month. So a tech with a cost of e.g. 100k will require 100 months if only that explorer is set to research it. Correct?

quote:

// These values determine how much scientific data a science ship will receive for discovering a resource or a ruin that contains a discovery. Ruins that contain nothing will give no data.
scientificDataForResourceSurvey=3
scientificDataForRuins=90

Is "scientificData" in the same scale as "researchPerLab" ? So to research that same 100k tech, an explorer would need to survey 33334 new resources?

Finally, how, if at all, is the science obtained from explorers scaled with difficulty? Or is it a flat number added towards whatever its target tech is?

I'm trying to understand if it's possible to setup a game where most of the research is done via science explorers rather than static standard labs.


Edit:
Does the !science [all] command affect only currently existing explorers, or those build later as well? Is it saved in the savefile somehow, or would I need to repeat the command at each loading?


< Message edited by Noyyau -- 4/18/2021 9:04:55 PM >

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Post #: 1353
RE: Bacon Mod - 4/19/2021 2:38:50 PM   
RogerBacon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Noyyau

This means that an explorer with a lab will generate 1k worth of research, every month. So a tech with a cost of e.g. 100k will require 100 months if only that explorer is set to research it. Correct?



Correct.



quote:


Is "scientificData" in the same scale as "researchPerLab" ? So to research that same 100k tech, an explorer would need to survey 33334 new resources?


No. A ship will use one point of science research per month for each of the three types of research components it might have. So a ship with weapons research component will use one scientific data a month.
This might be a good time to point out that a ship does not bebefit from having more than one of each type of lab component for this system.
You can see how much scientific data your empire has in surplus by examining your home planet (ctrl-enter)

quote:



Finally, how, if at all, is the science obtained from explorers scaled with difficulty? Or is it a flat number added towards whatever its target tech is?



It isn't directly by this system. However, research in general is scaled with difficulty and that scaling is applied to research from everywhere, including this research.

quote:



I'm trying to understand if it's possible to setup a game where most of the research is done via science explorers rather than static standard labs.


Yes, I've done that and it works well. Of course this system was designed to let ships conduct independent research so if you have 30 explorers doing research and you want to micro-manage them to all work together it will be a bit of a pain. Better to let them pick their own techs to research I feel.

quote:



Edit:
Does the !science [all] command affect only currently existing explorers, or those build later as well? Is it saved in the savefile somehow, or would I need to repeat the command at each loading?



That command adds one of each lab type to each explorer in the game AND to each explorer design so future explorers built will have the labs as well. The command does not need to be run again even after loading a saved game.


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Post #: 1354
RE: Bacon Mod - 4/19/2021 6:11:44 PM   
Noyyau

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RogerBacon
quote:


Is "scientificData" in the same scale as "researchPerLab" ? So to research that same 100k tech, an explorer would need to survey 33334 new resources?

No. A ship will use one point of science research per month for each of the three types of research components it might have. So a ship with weapons research component will use one scientific data a month.
This might be a good time to point out that a ship does not bebefit from having more than one of each type of lab component for this system.
You can see how much scientific data your empire has in surplus by examining your home planet (ctrl-enter)

So the flowchart is:
Explorer has at least 1 lab (per type, more do not stack) -> Explorer surveys resources and/or ruins -> Explorer accumulates N points of "scientific data" -> Each month, 1 point per lab type on that explorer is converted into 1000 research (or however much the value is for researchPerLab in baconsettings.txt)

So an explorer could accumulate potentially thousands of "scientific data" points (e.g. exploring an entire sector alone) and then it could sit still for years going through those accumulated points?
The more explorers out exploring at the same time the better, then.

And what happens to the accumulated research points if an explorer is destroyed?

quote:

ORIGINAL: RogerBacon
quote:


Finally, how, if at all, is the science obtained from explorers scaled with difficulty? Or is it a flat number added towards whatever its target tech is?

It isn't directly by this system. However, research in general is scaled with difficulty and that scaling is applied to research from everywhere, including this research.


I guess the difficulty divisor is applied to the researchPerLab value when a "scientific data" point is converted into actual research?
E.g. with researchPerLab=1000 and Extreme difficulty (divisor: 2) , at each month's end I'd actually get 500 research points added to whatever tech is researched by that explorer?

So setting a custom difficulty with a research divisor of 10 (to make static lab research almost irrelevant) would also require setting an appropriately higher researchPerLab value.


As always, thanks for the explanations!

(in reply to RogerBacon)
Post #: 1355
RE: Bacon Mod - 4/20/2021 1:03:16 PM   
RogerBacon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Noyyau


So the flowchart is:
Explorer has at least 1 lab (per type, more do not stack) -> Explorer surveys resources and/or ruins -> Explorer accumulates N points of "scientific data" -> Each month, 1 point per lab type on that explorer is converted into 1000 research (or however much the value is for researchPerLab in baconsettings.txt)

So an explorer could accumulate potentially thousands of "scientific data" points (e.g. exploring an entire sector alone) and then it could sit still for years going through those accumulated points?
The more explorers out exploring at the same time the better, then.

And what happens to the accumulated research points if an explorer is destroyed?



That is correct.
In earlier version of the Bacon mod science ships kept all of their scientific data onboard the ship and it was all lost when it was destroyed. Since I keep my science ships on AI control this happened a lot. So now science ships will send their excess scientific data (anything over about 100 points) back to the home planet once a month. Also, other science ships that are below 100 scientific data will be able to draw on the home planet's stockpile once a month as well.

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Post #: 1356
RE: Bacon Mod - 4/21/2021 8:40:47 AM   
Noyyau

 

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Sorry to keep pestering you RogerBacon, I've only these last three questions to fully understand explorer research.

1) Is the difficulty divisor applied to the researchPerLab value when a "scientific data" point is converted into actual research?
E.g. with researchPerLab=1000 and Extreme difficulty (divisor: 2) , at each month's end I'd actually get 500 research points added to whatever tech is researched by that explorer?

2) Is the research provided by explorers not limited by the total empire research potential (as seen in the research screen)?
E.g. TERP is 500k, I build 20 explorers, each with 1 lab per each type and researchPerLab=1000 -> each explorer gives, each month, 3k total research (1k per branch)-> 36k /year -> 20 explorers give 720k research /year
Therefore the more explorers I build (with labs, obviously), the more I can increase research speed, uncapped. Correct?

3) Are the research bonuses (e.g. from locations and scientists, the +20% from Ultra Genius scientist trait, race/government modifiers, wonders, ruins) applied to explorer research as well? Or only to static lab research?

(in reply to RogerBacon)
Post #: 1357
RE: Bacon Mod - 4/21/2021 11:50:10 AM   
RogerBacon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Noyyau

Sorry to keep pestering you RogerBacon, I've only these last three questions to fully understand explorer research.

1) Is the difficulty divisor applied to the researchPerLab value when a "scientific data" point is converted into actual research?
E.g. with researchPerLab=1000 and Extreme difficulty (divisor: 2) , at each month's end I'd actually get 500 research points added to whatever tech is researched by that explorer?


So, I'm not actually scaling research with difficulty. That's the main game doing that. I believe what is really happening is that the total cost to research a tech is being changed, not individual research points that are generated. So, if you want to think of it in terms of a multiplier or divisor then science ship research points are being affected the same as other research points.

quote:



2) Is the research provided by explorers not limited by the total empire research potential (as seen in the research screen)?


Correct.

quote:



3) Are the research bonuses (e.g. from locations and scientists, the +20% from Ultra Genius scientist trait, race/government modifiers, wonders, ruins) applied to explorer research as well? Or only to static lab research?


I'm pretty sure this is the case.


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Post #: 1358
RE: Bacon Mod - 4/21/2021 1:29:23 PM   
Noyyau

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RogerBacon

So, I'm not actually scaling research with difficulty. That's the main game doing that. I believe what is really happening is that the total cost to research a tech is being changed, not individual research points that are generated. So, if you want to think of it in terms of a multiplier or divisor then science ship research points are being affected the same as other research points.



As far as I understand how research and difficulty work, the cost to research a tech is : techcost = value set at game setup * techlevel.
A few techs have an extra multiplier to increase the cost further (Warp Precursors comes to mind).
This I gathered by checking what I input at game setup and the costs displayed in the research screens, and I've always found it consistent across games and difficulties.

While the difficulty affects only the player (which you know better than me) and reduces the amount of research points generated (the Total Empire Research Potential displayed in the 4th research screen). Also consistent across games, same start settings, changing only difficulty (from Normal to Extreme for ease of calculations) and the TERP about halves.

So what I'm trying to understand is whether the research generated by the explorers is also divided by the difficulty factor, or not.
E.g. wanting to setup a game for explorer-only research, I was thinking about using a custom difficulty with a research divisor of 10.
If explorer research is affected by the difficulty, I'd need to increase researchPerLab in baconsettings.
Of course the best way to be sure would be to setup some kind of empirical test with both settings. I was hoping to avoid that step (not much free time available unfortunately).


(in reply to RogerBacon)
Post #: 1359
RE: Bacon Mod - 4/22/2021 8:57:52 AM   
Noyyau

 

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So I did set up a small test after all, and what I discovered what that, while research from explorers works as intended, the !setdifficulty command does not.
It does indeed use the custom parameters, but about at most a game-month later (sometimes as soon as a week) everything reverts to the original difficulty.
I also saved the game while the custom difficulty was active and reloaded this new savegame: it did start with the custom difficulty active, and about two weeks in it reverted to the original difficulty.
I did check and no, "difficulty scales up" was not selected at game creation.

(in reply to Noyyau)
Post #: 1360
RE: Bacon Mod - 4/22/2021 12:51:34 PM   
RogerBacon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Noyyau

So I did set up a small test after all, and what I discovered what that, while research from explorers works as intended, the !setdifficulty command does not.
It does indeed use the custom parameters, but about at most a game-month later (sometimes as soon as a week) everything reverts to the original difficulty.
I also saved the game while the custom difficulty was active and reloaded this new savegame: it did start with the custom difficulty active, and about two weeks in it reverted to the original difficulty.
I did check and no, "difficulty scales up" was not selected at game creation.


Well that sucks. There most be some code that reverts the difficulty that I didn't notice. I rarely get the time to actually playtest my changes for very long these days. The next time I look at the code maybe I can find it.

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Post #: 1361
RE: Bacon Mod - 4/22/2021 2:41:17 PM   
Noyyau

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RogerBacon
Well that sucks. There most be some code that reverts the difficulty that I didn't notice. I rarely get the time to actually playtest my changes for very long these days. The next time I look at the code maybe I can find it.


I hope you do manage to at least find some time to just enjoy the game!

In the meantime, I can confirm that explorer research is not affected by the difficulty level: I tested 2 same setting new games, prewarp start (to have nothing that would interfere), only difference was the difficulty, from Normal to Extreme.
In each game, I placed 10 science explorers (the same design, saved), manually set them all to research the same initial tech in each category: Enhanced Beam Weapons (standard tech cost), Adv Fission Reactors (x2 cost), and Colonization (x8 cost).
Also, in the research screens no techs were selected to research "normally", so that any research would be done by the explorers only.

In both tests, the techs were completed in almost the same month, with a +/- 1 month difference due to, I think, the time needed to gather the initial scientific data points for each explorer.

(in reply to RogerBacon)
Post #: 1362
RE: Bacon Mod - 5/2/2021 9:29:36 AM   
Magura

 

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Hey sorry if this has been answered before already, where do I put the text files if I want to run Beyond Extended Universe Alpha with Bacon mod? I put the text files in the customization>Beyond Extended Universe Alpha folder. I hope that's the right spot

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Post #: 1363
RE: Bacon Mod - 5/2/2021 2:09:29 PM   
RogerBacon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Magura

Hey sorry if this has been answered before already, where do I put the text files if I want to run Beyond Extended Universe Alpha with Bacon mod? I put the text files in the customization>Beyond Extended Universe Alpha folder. I hope that's the right spot



Yes, that's correct except for the BaconSettings.txt file which goes in the main directory with the exe.

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Post #: 1364
RE: Bacon Mod - 5/2/2021 6:07:30 PM   
Magura

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RogerBacon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Magura

Hey sorry if this has been answered before already, where do I put the text files if I want to run Beyond Extended Universe Alpha with Bacon mod? I put the text files in the customization>Beyond Extended Universe Alpha folder. I hope that's the right spot



Yes, that's correct except for the BaconSettings.txt file which goes in the main directory with the exe.



Cool, appreciate it! Fantastic work by the way, thanks for making this.

(in reply to RogerBacon)
Post #: 1365
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