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Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton

 
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Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 3/15/2017 3:59:45 AM   
Vanman

 

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Is it possible as the axis to simply save Vichy BP's and then have the Germans take them when they occupy Vichy?

Why is the Patton HQ available only in 1944? By the time he enters the game there are only a few turns left. He was involved in the North African campaign as a general. Should he not enter at least in 1943?
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RE: Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 3/15/2017 4:13:57 AM   
paulderynck


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Yes it can be a common tactic to save as many as possible and then walk in. I've seen a few games where the Axis were too greedy and a lightning offensive by the Allies allowed them to get half or more of the loot.

Patton was not an Army Group commander until 44. There's been some discussion as to whether his name should be on an HQ at all.



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RE: Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 3/15/2017 12:50:04 PM   
brian brian

 

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The unit names on the counters are for historical flavor only. Many similar arguments on the right name to have on an HQ could be presented for all Major Powers.

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RE: Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 3/15/2017 2:28:45 PM   
wworld7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Yes it can be a common tactic to save as many as possible and then walk in. I've seen a few games where the Axis were too greedy and a lightning offensive by the Allies allowed them to get half or more of the loot.

Patton was not an Army Group commander until 44. There's been some discussion as to whether his name should be on an HQ at all.




I never knew he ever rose to army group commander. He lead 7th army in the med and 3rd army (with my uncle serving as a tanker) in Europe.

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RE: Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 3/15/2017 6:31:32 PM   
paulderynck


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Right, looks like he never did command an army group. That's why there were discussions about whether it should be Devers name on on the counter.

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RE: Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 3/15/2017 7:43:35 PM   
ncc1701e


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Well, he was in command of the First United States Army Group. A fictitious army group that was created for operation Fortitude.
I think it does not count.

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RE: Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 3/16/2017 3:26:27 AM   
paulderynck


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Must be the one in 44 I was thinking of.

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RE: Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 3/16/2017 3:45:53 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

The unit names on the counters are for historical flavor only. Many similar arguments on the right name to have on an HQ could be presented for all Major Powers.
warspite1

Indeed. If leaders had to be Army Group commanders then the game would struggle to fill the required numbers of leaders - plus many famous names would not appear. Devers vs Patton? From a historical perspective I think its clear who should be in game, but - like him or loathe him - Patton was one of WWII's great personalities. Guderian too never actually commanded an Army Group but having him in game feels right. Gort never commanded an Army Group and after the defeat in France never commanded a field army again - but someone has to lead the BEF. And there are plenty more such examples.

I've never really considered the leaders chosen in WIF too deeply (if at all) before, but I can't think of any obvious omissions or anyone in game that shouldn't be.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/16/2017 4:10:03 AM >


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RE: Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 3/17/2017 10:11:13 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Guderian too never actually commanded an Army Group but having him in game feels right.


Guderian did command a Panzer Group during Fall Rot in 1940 that later became the 2nd Panzer Group in November 1940 renamed the 2nd Panzer Army.

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RE: Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 3/18/2017 2:12:58 AM   
Neilster


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I've always had a soft spot for Rydz-Śmigły. Talk about a poisoned chalice.

When I first saw WiF 5th edition, in a hobby shop in about 1993, I had never heard of it and had only played one Strategy & Tactics wargame (Case Green, a hypothetical German invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1938...I think it's pretty good).

I gazed lovingly at the back of the box. Heaps of awards, strategic level, all theatres of war, 1200 counters...I'll be having this...and I will crush Poland again and again. Bad luck Rydz-Śmigły...evil German Neilster got control

Cheers, Neilster

The Case Green countersheet




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RE: Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 3/18/2017 2:39:42 AM   
brian brian

 

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British PARAs in Poland - looks like a fun game. That Harrow ATR does have a nice range...

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RE: Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 3/18/2017 4:10:29 AM   
Neilster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

British PARAs in Poland - looks like a fun game. That Harrow ATR does have a nice range...

Err...yes. Some counters from other games on this sheet too.

Case Green is fun because in 1938, the Wehrmacht isn't the all conquering machine of 1940 and the Czechs still had their quite formidable border defences. When they lost these at the bargaining table (a table they weren't invited to!), the Germans walked in in March 1939. Mind you, their president having a heart attack during "negotiations" with Hitler didn't help.

The Wehrmacht learned many lessons from the bloodless campaigns in Austria and Czechoslovakia in 1938/39. The panzer units suffered an unacceptable number of breakdowns and there were staff-work tangles to be sorted out. The invasion of Poland uncovered plenty more issues and by May 1940 the deficiencies had mostly been put right; unfortunately for the Allies.

Cheers, Neilster

Pre-1939 Czechoslovak border fortifications




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< Message edited by Neilster -- 3/18/2017 4:31:02 AM >

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RE: Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 3/18/2017 4:30:02 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Guderian too never actually commanded an Army Group but having him in game feels right.


Guderian did command a Panzer Group during Fall Rot in 1940 that later became the 2nd Panzer Group in November 1940 renamed the 2nd Panzer Army.
warspite1

The point being made, and to which I answered, was the notion that a leader gets an Army Group counter when he led an Army Group - not an Army or Panzerarmee, and certainly not a Panzer Group.

A German Panzer Group varied in size - from another name for a roughly Corps sized unit (e.g. Panzer Group Kleist) to an army sized Panzergruppe (e.g those that fought on the Eastern Front, one of which (Panzergruppe 2) was commanded by Guderian - and which later (October 1941) was re-designated a Panzerarmee.

As I said, Guderian never commanded an Army Group.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/18/2017 6:02:22 AM >


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RE: Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 3/18/2017 10:10:11 AM   
brian brian

 

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I think he did for a brief period in April, 1945, though such Army Groups were no longer the same size as they used to be by that point.

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RE: Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 3/18/2017 1:06:22 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I think he did for a brief period in April, 1945, though such Army Groups were no longer the same size as they used to be by that point.
warspite1

Do you have a source or link for that please because its no Army Group I've ever heard of?


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 3/18/2017 1:22:05 PM >


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RE: Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 3/20/2017 6:47:15 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I think he did for a brief period in April, 1945, though such Army Groups were no longer the same size as they used to be by that point.
warspite1

Do you have a source or link for that please because its no Army Group I've ever heard of?

warspite1

Well no one seems to have any links and the only thing I can see is that when he was dismissed as Chief of Staff in March 1945, Hitler told him to take some sick leave. Apparently he was then treated for a heart condition.

So, as I said (again), Guderian never commanded an Army Group

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RE: Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 3/21/2017 2:17:59 PM   
brian brian

 

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ahh, thanks, couldn't recall exactly what he did in his brief return at the end in 1945

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RE: Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 1/23/2020 12:39:56 PM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I think he did for a brief period in April, 1945, though such Army Groups were no longer the same size as they used to be by that point.
warspite1

Do you have a source or link for that please because its no Army Group I've ever heard of?

warspite1

Well no one seems to have any links and the only thing I can see is that when he was dismissed as Chief of Staff in March 1945, Hitler told him to take some sick leave. Apparently he was then treated for a heart condition.

So, as I said (again), Guderian never commanded an Army Group


I'm just reading Ken Mackesy's book on Fast Heinz, so I'll let you know if I see anything different. I'm only up to Poland (XIX Corps commander) so you may need to bear with me.

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Ian R

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RE: Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 2/9/2020 6:19:27 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So, as I said (again), Guderian never commanded an Army Group


Arguably yes/no/maybe.

According to Mr Macksey (page 157), he did, albeit briefly, do so. Sort of. But not entirely explicitly.

At a meeting at Rosavl on 14/12/41, with Brauchitsch, Bock, & Kluge, he was assigned command of the Second Panzer Army, and also Second Army, although it was not named a heeresgruppe, merely "Provisional Army Guderian". A couple of weeks later he was relieved by Kluge, who had replaced the sacked Bock.

I infer this was possibly the "Heeresgruppe Abteilung Guderian" and if so might just qualify as an Army Group.








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Ian R

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RE: Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 2/9/2020 9:19:48 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So, as I said (again), Guderian never commanded an Army Group


Arguably yes/no/maybe.

According to Mr Macksey (page 157), he did, albeit briefly, do so. Sort of. But not entirely explicitly.

At a meeting at Rosavl on 14/12/41, with Brauchitsch, Bock, & Kluge, he was assigned command of the Second Panzer Army, and also Second Army, although it was not named a heeresgruppe, merely "Provisional Army Guderian". A couple of weeks later he was relieved by Kluge, who had replaced the sacked Bock.

I infer this was possibly the "Heeresgruppe Abteilung Guderian" and if so might just qualify as an Army Group.

warspite1

Well that's cleared that up - Guderian may possibly perhaps been given command of a formation (a provisional army?) that contained two armies (by definition an army group) before being relieved after just a couple of weeks by Kluge....


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RE: Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 2/9/2020 10:23:05 AM   
Ian R

 

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Clear as mud.

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Ian R

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RE: Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 2/9/2020 11:02:02 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Clear as mud.
warspite1

Indeed. While factually (by strict definition) he may have commanded an army group (two armies), to all intents and purposes he didn't really - I mean what could he have done in a couple of weeks? - and in game terms it doesn't matter anyway because one doesn't need to have commanded an army group to have an HQ counter in the game! Ask Nimitz....or Gort or......


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/9/2020 12:09:33 PM >


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RE: Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 2/9/2020 3:02:23 PM   
brian brian

 

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Maybe...the historical Germans never built out all of the HQ-As in their force pool...and spent all their Reichsmarks on Offensive Chits instead

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RE: Stealing Vichy BP's and Patton - 2/9/2020 3:45:00 PM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Clear as mud.
warspite1
.... what could he have done in a couple of weeks?



He demanded large quantities of AP ammunition, so as to blow holes in the frozen ground so the troops could get below ground level and not freeze to death.

He also ignored/disobeyed orders, made tactical withdrawals as he saw fit in the circumstances, and was sacked.

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Ian R

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