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RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol

 
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RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 10/5/2018 10:06:53 PM   
thedoctorking


Posts: 1768
Joined: 4/29/2017
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

I should say that there has never been a problem with introducing new house rules since the game started. So far every request has been granted. This includes two times being asked by the Soviet team to redo their turn after they had already sent the turn to us - the last time after two days. A team game is different and it has until now been pursued in the sense of an adventure and fun. There has always been an understanding that it might have to be adapted as it progressed into later years and as players have come and gone.

Given this background there was a request that chaos45 retract his comments about players in the game here and elsewhere but they felt not able to do so. So with the impasse the game is now being forked. There is going to be a game file carrying on forward in which I will be playing and another that chaos45 is welcome to pursue. Players in both teams, past and present have been told they are welcome to play in either or both, and with any vacancies there will be the opportunity for new players to join the game.


I'd gently suggest that you all (on both sides) take the weekend off to cool down a little and come back to this issue next week. You are all reasonable adults and for me this is a situation that you should be able to work out with a little give and take. It would be a shame to see a game that has been so interesting and played in such a good spirit to break down because of a short term clash of personalities.



I'm with you, Sammy. I just joined this game. I'd hate to see it break into two games.

(in reply to Sammy5IsAlive)
Post #: 481
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 10/5/2018 10:08:16 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 3069
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

I will do my best today, but may be able to post something better tomorrow.

There will be two team games - until and unless they get better names let us call them "8MP A" and "8MP B"

Both will have the same PBEM game saves up to the Axis Turn 54. From Soviet turn 54 two different Soviet teams will be doing and exchanging turns with two different Axis teams. Although the two team games will be the same up to the Axis turn 54 after that they will be diverging and be as different as any of the other team games ongoing.


OH! Ok thank you for breaking it down :)

_____________________________

Space we can recover; time never

Napoleon

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 482
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 10/5/2018 10:20:01 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 3420
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
I should say that there has never been a problem with introducing new house rules since the game started. So far every request has been granted. This includes two times being asked by the Soviet team to redo their turn after they had already sent the turn to us - the last time after two days. A team game is different and it has until now been pursued in the sense of an adventure and fun. There has always been an understanding that it might have to be adapted as it progressed into later years and as players have come and gone.

Given this background there was a request that chaos45 retract his comments about players in the game here and elsewhere but they felt not able to do so. So with the impasse the game is now being forked. There is going to be a game file carrying on forward in which I will be playing and another that chaos45 is welcome to pursue. Players in both teams, past and present have been told they are welcome to play in either or both, and with any vacancies there will be the opportunity for new players to join the game.

I'd gently suggest that you all (on both sides) take the weekend off to cool down a little and come back to this issue next week. You are all reasonable adults and for me this is a situation that you should be able to work out with a little give and take. It would be a shame to see a game that has been so interesting and played in such a good spirit to break down because of a short term clash of personalities.


I should say this was first suggested a year ago and perhaps it does sound more dramatic than it really is. This team games has gone through more than two dozen players and there are many wanting to join. Every time someone has had to resign from the game I keep having to answer lots of emails from people saying is the game over and I keep having to remind everyone of course not this is a team game. Manchester United did not stop playing when George Best left the team. And we have even had players who resigned returning. Indeed I think we should view teams as being squads where not everyone will play all the time. WitE is a big beast of a game and for some people this is what they can manage. The team games have shown they can perpetuate even when people join and leave and there is no reason not to go for the duration.

However there are absolute fundamentals that cannot be compromised - and to do so in my opinion will destroy this team game more rapidly and surely than anything else. So for a very long time those lines have been drawn and clear. This is not a flash in the pan decision but something long discussed planned and considered. So please rest assured it is not something in the heat of the moment.

(in reply to Sammy5IsAlive)
Post #: 483
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 10/5/2018 10:56:16 PM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 8/4/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
I should say that there has never been a problem with introducing new house rules since the game started. So far every request has been granted. This includes two times being asked by the Soviet team to redo their turn after they had already sent the turn to us - the last time after two days. A team game is different and it has until now been pursued in the sense of an adventure and fun. There has always been an understanding that it might have to be adapted as it progressed into later years and as players have come and gone.

Given this background there was a request that chaos45 retract his comments about players in the game here and elsewhere but they felt not able to do so. So with the impasse the game is now being forked. There is going to be a game file carrying on forward in which I will be playing and another that chaos45 is welcome to pursue. Players in both teams, past and present have been told they are welcome to play in either or both, and with any vacancies there will be the opportunity for new players to join the game.

I'd gently suggest that you all (on both sides) take the weekend off to cool down a little and come back to this issue next week. You are all reasonable adults and for me this is a situation that you should be able to work out with a little give and take. It would be a shame to see a game that has been so interesting and played in such a good spirit to break down because of a short term clash of personalities.


I should say this was first suggested a year ago and perhaps it does sound more dramatic than it really is. This team games has gone through more than two dozen players and there are many wanting to join. Every time someone has had to resign from the game I keep having to answer lots of emails from people saying is the game over and I keep having to remind everyone of course not this is a team game. Manchester United did not stop playing when George Best left the team. And we have even had players who resigned returning. Indeed I think we should view teams as being squads where not everyone will play all the time. WitE is a big beast of a game and for some people this is what they can manage. The team games have shown they can perpetuate even when people join and leave and there is no reason not to go for the duration.

However there are absolute fundamentals that cannot be compromised - and to do so in my opinion will destroy this team game more rapidly and surely than anything else. So for a very long time those lines have been drawn and clear. This is not a flash in the pan decision but something long discussed planned and considered. So please rest assured it is not something in the heat of the moment.


Fair enough. It's not my game and I don't know the ins and outs of what has happened previously to make the current situation untenable.

I'd just caution that whilst there has been a turnover of players in individual sectors my understanding is that the game so far has been pretty consistent in terms of overall management. Whilst there might be plenty of players keen to take over an Army Group I'm a little concerned that you might find it difficult to find people to take on what is a really big job in terms of coordinating things as 'Supreme Commander' - both in terms of managing things 'in-game' strategically and more practically in terms of managing the turns and keeping the game moving.

If you manage to make it work I'd actually be very interested to see how the two saves diverge. I just worry that splitting the game this way may well see both games gradually dying off.

In football terms - United were absolutely fine without Best but quite quickly got relegated after Busby left and didn't win another league till Ferguson took over

< Message edited by Sammy5IsAlive -- 10/5/2018 11:02:03 PM >

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 484
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 10/6/2018 9:51:42 AM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1757
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline
The game split is being forced by Telemecus for two reasons

1. Because he was unhappy the soviet team asked the German team to stop using the recon spam exploit- This was not a solo ask by me as the Soviet team lead but as the soviet team.

2. I messaged Telemecus via PM that we suspected re-loading was being conducted by one of the Axis players due a to series of very un-likely but successful attacks and that the player should be spoken to and just asked to cease re-loading if it was being conducted and that was all we were going to say about it and continue the game.

As you can see the Axis players response was to throw a fit and try to remove me from the Game.

Just figured I would put out for public the real reasons for the sudden need for 2 games and for the Axis to want to find new soviet players.

(in reply to Sammy5IsAlive)
Post #: 485
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 10/6/2018 10:23:29 AM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3809
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
I should say that there has never been a problem with introducing new house rules since the game started. So far every request has been granted. This includes two times being asked by the Soviet team to redo their turn after they had already sent the turn to us - the last time after two days. A team game is different and it has until now been pursued in the sense of an adventure and fun. There has always been an understanding that it might have to be adapted as it progressed into later years and as players have come and gone.

Given this background there was a request that chaos45 retract his comments about players in the game here and elsewhere but they felt not able to do so. So with the impasse the game is now being forked. There is going to be a game file carrying on forward in which I will be playing and another that chaos45 is welcome to pursue. Players in both teams, past and present have been told they are welcome to play in either or both, and with any vacancies there will be the opportunity for new players to join the game.

I'd gently suggest that you all (on both sides) take the weekend off to cool down a little and come back to this issue next week. You are all reasonable adults and for me this is a situation that you should be able to work out with a little give and take. It would be a shame to see a game that has been so interesting and played in such a good spirit to break down because of a short term clash of personalities.


I should say this was first suggested a year ago and perhaps it does sound more dramatic than it really is. This team games has gone through more than two dozen players and there are many wanting to join. Every time someone has had to resign from the game I keep having to answer lots of emails from people saying is the game over and I keep having to remind everyone of course not this is a team game. Manchester United did not stop playing when George Best left the team. And we have even had players who resigned returning. Indeed I think we should view teams as being squads where not everyone will play all the time. WitE is a big beast of a game and for some people this is what they can manage. The team games have shown they can perpetuate even when people join and leave and there is no reason not to go for the duration.

However there are absolute fundamentals that cannot be compromised - and to do so in my opinion will destroy this team game more rapidly and surely than anything else. So for a very long time those lines have been drawn and clear. This is not a flash in the pan decision but something long discussed planned and considered. So please rest assured it is not something in the heat of the moment.


Fair enough. It's not my game and I don't know the ins and outs of what has happened previously to make the current situation untenable.

I'd just caution that whilst there has been a turnover of players in individual sectors my understanding is that the game so far has been pretty consistent in terms of overall management. Whilst there might be plenty of players keen to take over an Army Group I'm a little concerned that you might find it difficult to find people to take on what is a really big job in terms of coordinating things as 'Supreme Commander' - both in terms of managing things 'in-game' strategically and more practically in terms of managing the turns and keeping the game moving.

If you manage to make it work I'd actually be very interested to see how the two saves diverge. I just worry that splitting the game this way may well see both games gradually dying off.

In football terms - United were absolutely fine without Best but quite quickly got relegated after Busby left and didn't win another league till Ferguson took over


I would contend that any complex game like WITE that lasts for such a long time takes the same skills to manage as marriages. There are differences in styles of plays from wanting a total simulation of history to simply playing a game as designed. As I have stated previously the current battle resolution system is not going to reproduce Brody 1941 but the game itself is the best reproduction of the feel for Dicisional level armor warfare 1941-1945. The game combines fluid ZOC with fluid timing of combat resolution that replicated the fluid operation in the East.

However, if a player has a fixed worldview that does not align with play mechanics the options are to negotiate play style or find a player that is aligned with that worldview. Many monster games end early because of the clash of expectations (simulation vs game) and play styles. The team game offers a unique opportunity to manage a reasonable part of a complex game and blend play styles within a team. It can be very enjoyable. However, it does take remembering the skillls you learned in kindergarten. My match up was against EvK, who is an extremely gracious, intelligent , and mature wargamer. I had a lot of fun playing this game. With some changes in the Soviet team we went from gracious to contentious. Not so fun anymore. A conversation I understand on Discord (I don’t participate so I do not know) and this thread led to this point.

I would say that WITE is a journey and the goal is not to win but enjoy the experience. Not everyone shares that worldview. Some are on a crusade. Some substantiate their self worth by insulting others. Some take this game too seriously and see it as a reflection of themselves so they blame everything but themselves for results. Take a value system aligned with the game being a fun journey and a value system of the latter, and you have 8MP-A and 8MP-B ...

Myself, I initially enjoyed the interaction . I posted an AAR, as well as posted my findings on the combat resolution engine. It some of us forget the lessons of kindergarten and thus I keep my interactions to a minimum. I monitor the Dropbox for a turn... hopefully soon ..



_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to Sammy5IsAlive)
Post #: 486
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 10/6/2018 2:56:35 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 3420
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

The game split is being forced by Telemecus for two reasons

1. Because he was unhappy the soviet team asked the German team to stop using the recon spam exploit- This was not a solo ask by me as the Soviet team lead but as the soviet team.

2. I messaged Telemecus via PM that we suspected re-loading was being conducted by one of the Axis players due a to series of very un-likely but successful attacks and that the player should be spoken to and just asked to cease re-loading if it was being conducted and that was all we were going to say about it and continue the game.

As you can see the Axis players response was to throw a fit and try to remove me from the Game.

Just figured I would put out for public the real reasons for the sudden need for 2 games and for the Axis to want to find new soviet players.


Chaos45 has been told repeatedly this was about his personal abuse and that he did need to retract first. That was written down very clearly in the Discord channel. There is a further record of the issue in the thread above on the personal comments on me. He refused. Anything else would not be correct.

I think it is important that the matter is closed now.


< Message edited by Telemecus -- 10/6/2018 3:13:54 PM >

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 487
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 10/6/2018 5:16:35 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1757
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline
I stand by my statements. A public campaign by Telemecus to discredit me I will not sit by and watch without responding. Especially when it was his creditability and that of his teams play that was questioned.

I will not retract that I suspected re-loading and nothing that has transpired since would lead me to believe I was wrong, especially with how this has been handled by the Axis leader/Team since.

In fact Telemecus "personal abuse" comment makes no sense as I attempted to keep things more or less private via PM and to just the soviet team and one other person to get opinions on the situation until Telemecus decided to broadcast it everywhere. So if anyone is cause of "personal abuse" it is in fact Telemecus.

I attempted to be a gentlemen about this by keeping it to a closed circle but the Axis leader/team seemed to want it aired out, so be it.

In my opinion it is Telemecus that should step down and relinquish the Axis team lead due to his extremely poor leadership and judgement in the handling of this issue, which was initially attempted to be handled discretly by the Soviet team.

I have offered to leave the Soviet team so that game can continue without me, so far the team has not voted me off the island.


(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 488
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 10/6/2018 5:19:51 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 3420
Joined: 3/20/2016
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It was put in black and white what you had done and what you were asked to do and you refused. You should drop the issue now and not try dripping more disinformation. You have your game and I have mine. You have been offered help and co-operation with yours. You should take that with good grace.


< Message edited by Telemecus -- 10/6/2018 5:20:11 PM >

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 489
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 10/6/2018 5:41:31 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3809
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

It was put in black and white what you had done and what you were asked to do and you refused. You should drop the issue now and not try dripping more disinformation. You have your game and I have mine. You have been offered help and co-operation with yours. You should take that with good grace.



Now that the conversation has drifted into lunacy — I simply pressed the green button and made it red .. he is now on my blocked list. For those with an ounce of respect for Telemecus .. you might consider weeding out the chaff.

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 490
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 10/7/2018 8:26:03 AM   
MarauderPL

 

Posts: 133
Joined: 4/8/2016
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#TeamTelemecus #WiteCivilWar

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 491
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 10/7/2018 8:56:38 AM   
ledo

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 11/6/2017
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I think the popular opinion in this matter needs a balance patch, it's a bit one-sided at the moment.

(in reply to MarauderPL)
Post #: 492
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 10/7/2018 3:34:27 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 3420
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive
Fair enough. It's not my game and I don't know the ins and outs of what has happened previously to make the current situation untenable.

I'd just caution that whilst there has been a turnover of players in individual sectors my understanding is that the game so far has been pretty consistent in terms of overall management. Whilst there might be plenty of players keen to take over an Army Group I'm a little concerned that you might find it difficult to find people to take on what is a really big job in terms of coordinating things as 'Supreme Commander' - both in terms of managing things 'in-game' strategically and more practically in terms of managing the turns and keeping the game moving.

In football terms - United were absolutely fine without Best but quite quickly got relegated after Busby left and didn't win another league till Ferguson took over


Your concerns are valid. We have a situation where with the standing down of the two of the three Soviet team that you were always going to have a major discontinuity with a new person taking over whatever the case. So in the ongoing game the situation will be exactly the same as it would have been anyway.

When the game fork was discussed over a year ago it was always known it would considerably weaken the possibility of both games from continuing. However where a large number of players were not able to continue with the game as it was, the alternative it is being put against would have been weaker still. So it was only there as the better of two alternatives.

In some of the other team games there has been attempt to differentiate between a team manager role and the in game role of overall co-ordination. I feel the Supreme role has become too all encompassing which is why I think it has been difficult to find others to take it on. In the 2by3+ team game there is a Supreme commander who is openly a newbie player of the game, but has been amazing at the recruitment role of the game. In the Connect 4 team game supreme commanders have been replaced with chiefs of staff to deliberately down play their role. I would like it if the team aspect were played up more so that the Supreme role (or Chief of Staff) was seen as just one role of the team rather than being a special one. Good Soviet players do not put Zhukov in STAVKA but keep their best general for an army. I would be happy if teams felt always their best players should be on the ground.

On another note when some financial analysts turned their spreadsheets on the impact of football managers in the premier league, they found only two football managers ever actually made a statistically significant impact - Ferguson was one of them. In all other cases in premiership football the quantity of money they had to spend on players was the overwhelming causative factor in success, more so in fact than in ordinary businesses, and whoever the manager actually was made no difference at all.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 10/7/2018 4:01:20 PM >

(in reply to Sammy5IsAlive)
Post #: 493
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 10/7/2018 5:48:11 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1757
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline
After talking with the only remaining long term soviet player, we aren't going to bother trying to keep the game going. If the Axis team has found a new soviet team enjoy.

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 494
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 10/7/2018 5:53:04 PM   
SparkleyTits

 

Posts: 836
Joined: 10/7/2016
From: England
Status: offline
Shame to hear that mate I'm really sorry to see all of this happen

Best of luck to the other team

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 495
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 3/4/2019 6:35:12 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 1838
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline
One of the most interesting parts of the team game is the need to fit into a command structure and to coordinate operations and doctrine between the players. The central front repeatedly submitted memorandums to the STAVKA and the team to express its view in a structure format. It could be interesting to the public to read the now declassified documents, so I will post them here. Especially with M60 I had a number of discussions on strategy, I think to the benefit of both, at least they were good for me.


Memorandum regarding resource allocation and morale management within the
Red Army.


The memorandum is the result of a meeting among commanders of the Western Direction and
members of the Frunse Military Academy in the 25.01.1942 under the lead of STAVKA
representative for the Western Direction, General Armii Ewald von Kleist

1. Important facts about the game engine
1.1: The moral value of the unit is the upper limit for the experience ground elements can gain.
1.2: Morale can be only increased when the unit takes part in a victorious battle or if it is below the
individual national morale of its unit type and more than 10 hexagons away from an enemy unit. If
it is furthermore in refit mode, the rate will be increased. The morale increase from a battle is 0-3
points, and the chance to gain morale is drastically reduced when the unit’s morale is above the
unit’s national morale. The morale increase from being in the rear usually is 1-2 points per turn,
refit mode increases the rate to 2-4 points.
1.3: The experience gain of a unit usually is one point per turn. When the experience is less than one
half of the national morale, the rate is increased. Some state that having the unit on a working rail
or attacking with it improves experience as well, but there has been no test done yet to confirm
this.
1.4: Unit morale and experience are key parameters for a unit. First, the combat value of a unit is
calculated by the formula 𝑐𝑜𝑚𝑏𝑎𝑡 𝑣𝑎𝑙𝑢𝑒 = 𝑏𝑎𝑠𝑒 𝑣𝑎𝑙𝑢𝑒 ∗ 𝑒𝑥𝑝𝑒𝑟𝑖𝑒𝑛𝑐𝑒 ∗ 𝑚𝑜𝑟𝑎𝑙𝑒.
As higher morale allows higher experience, the combat value is proportional to the square of the
morale. Second, units with higher morale pay less MPs to enter enemy hexagons. The magic
numbers in question are 41 and 61 for infantry/cavalry. Third, higher morale reduces the chance of
a rout. Fourth, morale and experience have a high influence on combat losses inflicted and
suffered, attrition losses, ammunition consumption and much more. As a rule of thumb, a fully
trained guards rifle division has 1.5 times the CV of a normal rifle division, and a 45 morale
division has twice the CV of a 33 morale division, and that is before all the additional effects are
taken into account.
2. Conclusions for he praxis
2.1: Units with a morale below the national morale should be brought to the rear whenever the
situation on the front allows this. That is especially true for guards divisions. We have nothing of
the Guards status if the division does not use the potential to grow to 55+morale, but stays at 48
for the rest of 1942. It is nothing better than a normal rifle division then.
2.2: Attacking successfully is an effective way to improve the morale of a unit on the frontline. On
this way, it is even possible to get the unit morale above the national morale, with 2-3point being
easily in reach.
2.3: Try to get guards mountain divisions and guards cavalry divisions/corps above 60 morale so
they pay one MP less per enemy hexagon/2MP less for a ZOC to ZOC movement into an enemy
hexagon.
3. The state of morale management as of T32
A quick review of the situation showed the following situation.
3.1: The Northern direction has a number of units 5 or more points below the national morale. Many
units of them will not have the chance to participate in a successful fight during the next turns. It
should be possible to rotate them to the rear area and return them into their position before the end
of the blizzard. Additional STAVKA rifle brigades might be necessary to preserve fortifications
meanwhile.
3.2: The Western Direction has started the unit rotation a while back, therefore the situation is fine
North of Moscow apart from a few overlooks that will be corrected soon. South of Moscow, a
good number of units is below its national morale, but the fluid situation allows to improve the
situation by winning fights.
3.3: The Southern Direction is in a very good shape, only newly awarded guards units are below
their national morale, but should be able to get there by victories.
3.4: The STAVKA units, which includes units send to the front for fortification works, are in a very
bad shape. Good examples are the stacks around Ryazan, Gorky, Penza and the artillery units.
3.5: Most support units have a good morale. Newly formed support units should stay in the rear
until they reach 50 morale.
4. Replacement allocation
The general idea is to send the replacements to the areas where offensive or defensive fighting is to
be expected, while starving the rest of the front for replacements. Having men sitting in units behind
the frontline or on secondary fronts while the frontline units melt down is bad economy of forces. In
addition, replacements should be concentrated in the units where they will generate the most combat
value. Therefore, units with high morale and high experience should be prioritized for replacements.
Looking at the current situation, the committee believes we are refitting too many units, the wrong
units and that we have too many units on MAX TOE=100.
4.1: Rear area units should be set to MAX TOE=20. The many rifle brigades at 100%, the tank units
at Gorky or the entire 60th army take away replacements from the front line, where many divisions
have dropped to 50%. One can argue that we do not only need strong units, but also very many for
defense in depth. This is true, but we do not need them now, whereas strengthening the fighting
units is urgent. If we feel the need to have more low to mid-strength units, this can be easily done
during the last two blizzard turns by setting the entire army at 20% MAX TOE except for a few
chosen units.
4.2: Every shell unit below the national morale should be brought to the rear area and set on refit
and 20% MAX TOE so it does not compete for replacements. Yes, currently we do not care about
their morale, but one day we might suddenly need a unit and it will then make a difference if the
replacements flow into a 30morale unit or a 45morale unit.
4.3: Only few frontline units should be on refit. Ideally, the STAVKA gives orders how to manage
this according to current and future hotspots.
4.4: Setting frontline units to low TOEs to concentrate replacements might be tempting as well, but
there are trade-offs. Only some, but not all resources are scarce. The current trend indicates that we
will be short on manpower but are going to swim in armaments. Setting a unit to, say, 60% MAX
TOE does not only cut down on the allotment of the rifle squads we are short of, but also on the
artillery we have plenty, reducing the added-up combat value of all units. A good middle way for
now could be to set every frontline unit below 50 morale to 80% and above 49 morale to 100%
with Cavalry, chosen tank brigades and units with exceptional morale and mountain units to refit
on top. In addition, standard units which are part of an important offensive can be prioritized as
well.
OOC:
I am aware that this is a lot of editing MAX TOEs and micromanagement. When playing Soviets, I
spend a lot of time on such stuff, including considerations like “I have a 35mrl brigade maintaining a
fort. There is a 20% TOE division with 45 morale in range to replace it, but it is also maintaining a
fort and therefore I am pull out a 40 division out of the frontline as well and then I need to rail in this
unit to fill the gap etc.”.
The problem is that the NKGB reports indicate that the German army does exactly this stuff in
excess, getting withdrawing units close to 85% TOE, swapping old models into withdrawing air
groups, extracting good leaders out of withdrawing HQs and all such stuff. If we want to compete and
survive 1942, I think we must not fall behind too much in this category.
It is understandable if micromanaging is not your way of playing. But if this is somehow possible
management-wise, I can do some admin stuff for a while if necessary.


Memorandum on the Soviet summer strategy, from around T45


[image][/image]
A)There are several options the Axis can draw from.
1. Dispersed effort: That is the least dangerous option, as it will not cause major pockets. Unlikely. Signs: Dispersed panzers.
2. Focus north: Offensive in the Northern-Central area to eliminate the Valdai bulge. The size of the operation can vary, rangin from an effort to encircle a single army to a front-threatening operation. Signs: Considerable infantry deployment and disappeared Panzers.
3. Focus Tula to Boguchar: Major attack in this area, aiming both for encirclements and for grabbing land. An Axis effort there threatens manpower centers and maybe brings the Ural industry in range of the Axis bombers. Signs: Panzer concentration in this area. I consider this to be the most likely option, maybe coupled with a small grinding offensive in the Valdai area. Not at last because it would involve all front commanders. The spring attack also points in this direction.
4. Focus South: An effort to capture the Don bend, preparing an attack into the Caucasus. Signs: Panzer concentrations.


B) In any case, the Axis will and should be focused on encirclements, leaving the land grab as a mere consequence. The puzzle we have to solve is how to avoid losing too many units without running away. The solution to this is situational awareness and defence in depth. We at all cost need to find out where the Panzers are. If the the Axis hits anywhere on a not reinforced front with a panzer ball commanded by an experienced player, it will easily create a big pocket we cannot afford.
We can’t have defense in depth everywhere, therefore we need to find out where it is necessary.

Especially threatened from an encirclement is the front line from Boguchar to Rostov. It has no real depth and allot of open terrain behind it. Even more concerning is the fact that an Axis panzer force seeming at Voronesh can easily swing South to pocket. If Axis forces are nearby, the frontline must be either strengthened considerably, or be taken back.

C) Currently, a considerable amount of forces is refitting in the rear area. There is no reason why they can’t do the same a little closer to the frontline (still out of harm) on a spot where their construction value can be used, while they still remain on or very close to the rail line. At the moment apply their skills in shovelling at useless spots.

D) The STAVKA suggested to use the mobile forces (cavalry and tank/mech) at least 10-12 hexagons as a strategic reserve to counter Axis attempts on pockets. I believe that this position is too far backwards. At least elements of the mobile strategic reserve should be placed so that between them and the last units of the regular defence no route without ZOC on it remains as a general guideline. On this way, they also form the final line of the main defence.

In any case, the strategic reserve should either dig or act as an operational reserve as well. A strategic reserve to manage an operational crisis that is caused exactly by its absence on the front line makes no sense (I consider the Topeverest AAR to be an example of what not to do in that direction).

E) The red army lacks 2.5 million men to fill its ranks. I am therefore sceptical (not critical) about STAVKA plans to build more units.

F) We currently fortify river lines. In my opinion, the thing that needs to be fortified first is the space between the rivers, as it is the favoured axis of attack.

G) I think we need to construct a few non-river related rear area lines to get some depth in the defense. I am not sure what to do with the line in the South, as it takes considerable effort to make it somewhat stable.



< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 3/4/2019 6:52:27 PM >


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Post #: 496
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 3/4/2019 6:45:45 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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Below you can find a snippet of the Soviet's T44 team communication, with orders of the high command and the weekly report by the Northwestern Direction. I think it was the turn when I overtook the Northwestern Front in addition to the Central front.


T44 STAVKA orders (by M60)
Mud remains across the front. Next weeks forecast is for blizzard conditions in the north. The partially frozen major rivers will continue to hinder Axis movement in those areas should colder weather arrive.

Axis combat was almost exclusively confined to the air. There was only one ground battle, and there are troops were victorious.

Industrial evacuations continue at Stalingrad and will wrap up next week.
The last of our twenty four tank corps were formed this week. Three motorized brigades were formed and the remaining three will form next week, for a total of twenty four.

The foothold of Axis forces over the Don at Levaya Rossosh was eliminated by a STAVKA directed attack of Rokossovsky’s 40th Army. Elements of Southwestern Front assisted in this effort. We will need to reoccupy this location and maximize our construction assets (50) to strengthen this area once again.

The VVS has deployed air recon assets that will conduct active search operations next week to identify where German panzer formations are concentrated. Staging bases have been set on rail mode for rapid evacuation once these missions are complete.

An internal investigation is now underway concerning the fitness of General Maior Aleksei Danilov, commanding 3rd Shock Army. Although he has been highly successful, stories have circulated that he has become a chronic alcoholic. We will advise once the investigation is complete.

Northwestern Direction
Continue with your defensive arrangements as you see fit.

Southwestern Direction
Continue with your defensive arrangements as you see fit. Extend the defenses along the Don as needed. We are concerned with the safety of 18th and 19th Armies as the Germans have mobile forces in this area that are active. We are also bringing up additional tank brigades to support you in the Boguchar region.

TIMOSHENKO
Chief of Staff

T44 Northwestern Direction report (by EvK)
Orders have been given and executed for the Northwestern Direction's part of the front.
Due to the recent change in the organisation of the Soviet army, a countless number of actions have been taken. Among the first was to name General-Leitenant Markian Popov deputy STAVKA representative of the Northwestern Direction. As the front covers thousands of miles, he will be responsible for the Northern area when for whatever reason communication between my headquarter and the far Northern troops is interrupted.

A number of army HQs were moved in range, as their former location made it impossible for them to supply their units under muddy conditions. The Northwest Air command currently has a number of AA support units, the STAVKA may consider reassigning them to a different HQ.

Units coloured in green (0,200,0) are scheduled to be sent back for ideological schooling.

The process of simplyfying army structures continues at the prize of marches parallel to the frontline. Manning of the first line trenches has been reduced to a safe minimum to reduce attrition and fatigue.

A major problem for commanders of the higher ranks is the lack of a long term strategy. The placement and preparation of fortifications therefore follows tactical principles without thought given to strategical considerations.
I strongly advocate for a defence meeting determining future plans

In preparation of this meeting, I plan to submit a memorandum that deals with strategic questions and long term preparations of fortifications. Lictuel, do you wish me to include your front in those considerations, or do you prefer to create an own strategic proposal and an own analysis of possible threats for your area? Please notify me about this.

More than a month ago, the STAVKA announced that the 38th Army of General-Leitenant Georgy Zakharov has met the criteria for promotion to a guards army. That renaming has not happened until today. The soldiers of this formation continue to fight day and night for communism, yet little signs of disappointment can be seen. I believe they should wait no longer.

STAVKA representative of the Northwestern Direction
General Armii Ewald von Kleist


What do you think about Monday or Tuesday evening, 20GMT for a conference?
Please notify me by E-Mail if a conference is scheduled m60 to make sure I do not miss it.

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Post #: 497
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 3/6/2019 3:32:03 PM   
Crackaces


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A little funny from post #496 .. EvK states "Frontline very easy to pocket .." It seems that Thedude357 discovered that on the last turn

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Post #: 498
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 3/6/2019 4:32:07 PM   
M60A3TTS


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If anyone would like to continue this game taking the Axis side as a 1v1, feel free to PM me. I would imagine getting the needed info from the Axis side would not be too difficult.

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Post #: 499
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 3/6/2019 5:32:52 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

If anyone would like to continue this game taking the Axis side as a 1v1, feel free to PM me. I would imagine getting the needed info from the Axis side would not be too difficult.


I sent a PM

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Post #: 500
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 3/6/2019 5:56:27 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Looks like this game will rise once more, albeit in a 1-1 format.

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Post #: 501
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 3/6/2019 6:32:11 PM   
ledo

 

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Best news I've heard all week.

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Post #: 502
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 3/6/2019 7:24:31 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 1838
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The world deserves an AAR.

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RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 3/6/2019 7:28:17 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

The world deserves an AAR.


Since this is a different game -- I will start a new AAR around turn 60 to cover turn 55 on ...

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Post #: 504
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 3/6/2019 7:41:58 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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Fine!
I am not sure what M60 is going to do now as no one steals his mobile units anymore and moves them closer to the front? Or gives them a martial, intimidating pink colour?

< Message edited by EwaldvonKleist -- 3/6/2019 9:01:40 PM >


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Post #: 505
RE: Week 47- May and Sevastopol - 3/7/2019 12:24:29 AM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Fine!
I am not sure what M60 is going to do now as no one steals his mobile units anymore and moves them closer to the front? Or gives them a martial, intimidating pink colour?


I did bronze in 2x3 and the 4th Panzer Army is still bronze in that game :)

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"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 506
Week 51 Deployment - 3/8/2019 8:01:55 PM   
M60A3TTS


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< Message edited by M60A3TTS -- 3/8/2019 8:16:57 PM >

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Post #: 507
RE: Week 51 OOB - 3/13/2019 2:53:08 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Week 51 OOB


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Post #: 508
RE: Week 51 Vehicle Situation - 3/13/2019 3:16:59 AM   
M60A3TTS


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An adequate surplus in the motor pool of almost sixty thousand vehicles will safely allow for the expansion of tank support units. They are not manpower intensive, but it will not be necessary for a massive buildup either. Separate tank battalions, guards heavy tank regiments and flame tank battalions will all be forming as the months progress. The T34M42 will enter production next month, as well as the OT-34 flame tank. The KV-1s M1942 heavy tank enters production in August.

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 509
RE: Week 51 Vehicle Situation - 3/13/2019 10:35:39 AM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 1838
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From: Berlin, Germany
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Question from my side, from which turn do you continue the game as a 1 vs 1?

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