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Saudi convoy to the US. - 2/27/2017 7:37:20 PM   
Patrat


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I might be mistaken, Its been a long time since I've read "The Prize", but was there really any convoy route to the US from Saudi Arabia during WW2.

IIRC the US dominated world oil production and exports during WW2 and that Saudi Arabian production was just getting started.

Shipping oil from Saudi Arabia to the US in WW2 would be like shipping ice to Antarctica, IMO.

If you want a US convoy route that the Germans can raid, I would suggest one from South America, Caribbean. Even one from the US gulf states would be better. The Germans sunk a lot of tankers coming up from the gulf, at least until the US built the BigInch, Little Big Inch pipelines.

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RE: Saudi convoy to the US. - 2/27/2017 8:09:07 PM   
The Land

 

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Wikipedia things oil production was growing rapidly during WW2 - though trivial compared with later production. Don't know how it compared with the USA in the same period but the convoy is only, what, 35MPPs - 1/10 or 1/15 that of total US production?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_oil_industry_in_Saudi_Arabia

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RE: Saudi convoy to the US. - 2/27/2017 8:18:39 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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It's certainly true that production was new and not very significant, though the US took steps to build relations with the Saudis, with Roosevelt declaring in 1943 that Saudi oil was of strategic importance. More due to its potential than its production, but I don't think that the Allies should be prevented from developing that potential, bearing in mind that the MPP gain from doing so is beneficial but it's certainly not huge.

As an aside, Italy bombed the Saudi town of Dhahran in 1940, inflicting little damage, and during the war about 42.5 million barrels were produced there. This isn't a great amount, but one can consider the diplomatic investment required in Saudi Arabia as the equivalent of subsidizing ARAMCO that kick started the whole process of developing Saudi Arabia's oil production during that period.

There is some coverage of this subject here:
http://www.saudiaramco.com/content/dam/Publications/Energy%20to%20the%20World%20-%20English/Vol-1-Chapter-4.pdf

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RE: Saudi convoy to the US. - 2/28/2017 1:51:15 AM   
Patrat


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Well my main beef isn't the income the US gets from Saudi Arabia, it's just that I really doubt any oil was actually shipped to the US during the war. It most likely was used in the middle east or sent to Britain or elsewhere. In other words, I doubt there was a convoy route from there to the US.

I admit I could be wrong, it's been a while since I've read anything about the history of the oil business and I seem to have misplaced my copy of "The Prize", it's an excellant history of the oil business.

< Message edited by Patrat -- 2/28/2017 1:55:54 AM >

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RE: Saudi convoy to the US. - 2/28/2017 2:19:32 AM   
sPzAbt653


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I never read 'The Prize', so I am deficient in this area, but I did a little Wiki-ing on Saudi Arabia at one point, and while the amount of oil sent to the US was not important at the time, I agree with having it in the game as a point of interest to both sides. Roosevelt did say that Saudi Arabia was 'vital to the defense' of the US, so it seems like it should be represented somehow in the game.

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RE: Saudi convoy to the US. - 2/28/2017 3:10:42 AM   
Patrat


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From the article Bill linked.

"At its low point in 1942, the workforce in Dhahran was reduced to 82 Americans,
84 other foreign employees and about 1,600 Saudis. Despite the war footing, Dhahran was
still able to ship from 12,000 to 15,000 barrels of oil a day by barge to the refinery in Bahrain
to help fuel Britain’s Royal Navy."

It also talks about how later in the war, they expanded capacity to fuel the US navy in the pacific.

So while it certainly seems that Saudi oil production is important enough to include in the game, from what I could glean from that article was that it wasn't shipped to the US mainland.

IMO a perfect solution would be to let the US just have the income from Saudi Arabia if they invest in it, and rename the convoy route as one from South America/Caribbean/ or the US gulf states, and let the Axis subs interdict that.

Just a thought.


< Message edited by Patrat -- 2/28/2017 3:13:27 AM >

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RE: Saudi convoy to the US. - 2/28/2017 3:18:41 AM   
Patrat


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Just so I don't sound all negative, I should mention that I am currently enjoying a really epic game as Axis against the Allied AI set to expert.

It's a real cliff hanger. It's the middle of 43 and I still have no idea who's going to win. I'm really enjoying it.

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RE: Saudi convoy to the US. - 2/28/2017 3:55:20 AM   
sPzAbt653


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Thanks for reading that article, maybe now I don't have to ! I had wondered about the Wiki article I read, because it wasn't very specific. I like your idea of switching the convoy to a southern/gulf one for the US, I may steal it and put it in 653H [although so far I am not good at getting convoy scripts running very well]. Will wait to see if Bill has any balance concerns with making such a change, as he knows the big picture.

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RE: Saudi convoy to the US. - 2/28/2017 7:34:10 AM   
Patrat


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What would be really cool would be to have the convoy route run from the US gulf states and have a decision event to build the Big Inch pipeline.

If the US invests so many MPPS to build the Big Inch pipeline, it can bypass the convoy route and get whatever Mpps assigned to that route safely free from Uboats.

Historically there really should be a convoy route from the the US gulf states anyway. And in Real Life the Big Inch pipeline was built so oil from Texas could be safely transported to the east coast without getting sunk by Uboats. Uboats took quite a toll of tankers coming from the gulf until the pipeline was built.

On a personal note, I'd like to mention that I remember my mother telling me how frighten she was during the war, living in Florida and suffering from temporary blindness, hearing about Uboats sinking ships in sight of the shore. She was afraid the Germans were going to invade. She was a young woman then and had no idea how hard that would be to do.

< Message edited by Patrat -- 2/28/2017 7:43:48 AM >


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RE: Saudi convoy to the US. - 2/28/2017 8:10:50 AM   
geordietaf

 

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quote:

On a personal note, I'd like to mention that I remember my mother telling me how frighten she was during the war, living in Florida and suffering from temporary blindness, hearing about Uboats sinking ships in sight of the shore. She was afraid the Germans were going to invade. She was a young woman then and had no idea how hard that would be to do.


One night in 1944, in the small Welsh mining village of Ynysybwl, my Aunt was awakened by the sound of marching soldiers. Looking out of her bedroom window and seeing strange helmets, she thought the Germans had arrived. Thankfully my uncle was able to tell her than the new arrivals were Americans.




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RE: Saudi convoy to the US. - 2/28/2017 3:28:09 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Patrat

From the article Bill linked.

"At its low point in 1942, the workforce in Dhahran was reduced to 82 Americans,
84 other foreign employees and about 1,600 Saudis. Despite the war footing, Dhahran was
still able to ship from 12,000 to 15,000 barrels of oil a day by barge to the refinery in Bahrain
to help fuel Britain’s Royal Navy."

It also talks about how later in the war, they expanded capacity to fuel the US navy in the pacific.

So while it certainly seems that Saudi oil production is important enough to include in the game, from what I could glean from that article was that it wasn't shipped to the US mainland.

IMO a perfect solution would be to let the US just have the income from Saudi Arabia if they invest in it, and rename the convoy route as one from South America/Caribbean/ or the US gulf states, and let the Axis subs interdict that.

Just a thought.



That is a very simple change, but the convoy would still effectively come from Saudi Arabia and require the country to have a pro-Allied leaning for it to work, so everything would be the same except it would appear in the US income reports as coming from a different source, which could be confusing.

In terms of where the oil was used, you're right that it probably never made it to the US as that would be inefficient. But convoys are the simplest and best way of representing income gained from a minor and the way the game works, income is effectively centralised under each Major and then they can spend it where they see fit.

The difference here being that it gives the Axis one more convoy to target, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

< Message edited by Bill Runacre -- 2/28/2017 6:40:56 PM >


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