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RE: Crisis in Sirte #3: Riptide - 8/6/85 - DAR (no Crossroads)

 
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RE: Crisis in Sirte #3: Riptide - 8/6/85 - DAR (no Cros... - 3/9/2017 2:34:40 AM   
berto


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From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
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TURN #5

At the center left, I slowly but deliberately move forward. A British mech infantry unit fires at my approaching infantry, revealing its position.

Apart from that, there is no other firing this phase.

Using my rearward howitzers, I plot some indirect artillery fire for the first time this scenario.

From "Bedfordshire", I set my eastern battle group in motion.

Fearing another helo attack, I retire my center right tank company eastward (yellow circle, screenshot below). As a shield, I position my flight of Mi-24 Hind Gunships a bit forward (turquoise circle) in the hopes that the British Lynx will draw close enough that the Hinds can blast them.

Unlike the Hinds, which have decent anti-helo fire capability, the Mi-2 Hoplites are near toothless, and are thin-skinned to boot. Staying far away from suspected British MANPADs, I assign the Hoplites (green circle) to recon duty.

I still have no idea where the enemy has concentrated. Where are the British Chieftans? (I shudder to think that maybe a few of them are headed south to attack my SAM installations at the Ghardabiya Air Base.)

After my Side B (Libyan) move (Side B is the scenario's second side), the situation at the end of Turn 5 (with the Elevation map display toggled ON):



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Post #: 31
RE: Crisis in Sirte #3: Riptide - 8/6/85 - DAR (no Cros... - 3/10/2017 11:14:11 PM   
berto


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From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
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In sending his Turn 6 moves, Crossroads had this to say:

quote:

Crossroads:

For this turn, I had the most cunning plan. I should have known.

Ooh, he has piqued my curiosity. Can I look forward to some good news for a change?

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Post #: 32
RE: Crisis in Sirte #3: Riptide - 8/6/85 - DAR (no Cros... - 3/11/2017 1:40:53 PM   
berto


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From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
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TURN #6

About Crossroads' comment, "I should have known": No big deal. He sent one of his armored scout car units on a recon mission around my left flank. One of my Maljutka C Tank Destroyer platoons at hex 15,11 (turquoise circle, screenshot following) blasted the scout cars, destroying one of them (magenta circle).

Action heats up in the center, as British Chieftans advance, are opfired at by T-72s (green circle), then forced to retreat (white circle). No kills, just a retreat. That's a bad omen.

A flight of British Lynx fire at Libyan BMP-1s at hex 31,15 (red circle), destroying all three of them. Crossroads knows his OOB. He knows to go after the BMP-1s instead of the T-72s, because the BMP-1s have greater anti-tank firepower, while with their low Defense value are much easier to kill. After the attack, the Lynx withdraw from view once again.

More exchange of fire in the center, without significant outcome.

East of "Cumbria", Crossroads advances his helos. Maybe seeing my helos in ambush position, he stops short, does not attack the T-72s, pulls back instead. Prudence.

North of "Cumbria", maybe I have a chance to kill both of those British Milan ATGM platoons (yellow circles) this next phase. Here's hoping.

After Crossroads' Side A (British) move (Side A is the scenario's first side), the situation at the middle of Turn 6:



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Post #: 33
RE: Crisis in Sirte #3: Riptide - 8/6/85 - DAR (no Cros... - 3/11/2017 4:06:25 PM   
Big Ivan


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berto,

You watch your fanny, those Chieftans are bad-ass perpetrators!

Be careful, be careful!!



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Blitz call sign Big Ivan.

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Post #: 34
RE: Crisis in Sirte #3: Riptide - 8/6/85 - DAR (no Cros... - 3/11/2017 6:06:06 PM   
berto


Posts: 19417
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From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
Status: offline

Thanks, Ivan. I learned the hard way in one of my solo prep scenarios, Sirte #2. A company of my T-72s went up against a company of A/I controlled Chieftains. In just a single phase, final score: Chieftains 10, T-72s 0. The Chieftains wiped me out!

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Post #: 35
RE: Crisis in Sirte #3: Riptide - 8/6/85 - DAR (no Cros... - 3/11/2017 6:39:44 PM   
berto


Posts: 19417
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From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
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TURN #6

T-72s at hex 31,15 (turquoise circle below) direct fire at Chieftains at hex 35,13 (yellow circle), just 4 hexes away. Realistically speaking, my T-72s will never get a closer, cleaner shot than this. Result: nothing, not a single hit, not even a disruption. Look again at these comparative stats, and you will understand why.



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Post #: 36
RE: Crisis in Sirte #3: Riptide - 8/6/85 - DAR (no Cros... - 3/11/2017 6:54:34 PM   
berto


Posts: 19417
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From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
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TURN #6

Maybe I will try my luck with the BMP-1s. They do pack a bigger punch than the T-72s:



Nope! No better luck. BMP-1s at hex 31,15 (turquoise circle below) direct fire at Chieftains at hex 35,13 (yellow circle), again just 4 hexes away. Another swing, another miss:



I am totally stymied.

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Post #: 37
RE: Crisis in Sirte #3: Riptide - 8/6/85 - DAR (no Cros... - 3/11/2017 7:14:51 PM   
berto


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This is reminiscent of 1991's Operation Desert Storm (six years after the Sirte #3 scenario's time frame), where the Allied Coalition fought the Iraqi Army, what was then the world's fourth largest army. Great numbers availed the Iraqis nothing. With their outdated equipment (among other reasons), they were no match at all for the vastly superior Allied forces.

I noted before that the T-72s have greater mobility vs. Chieftains. Maybe I could try to maneuver and hit the Chieftains on the side. The Chieftains' Front/Side/Rear armor ratings are 67/42/30. But again, nope. We are playing this scenario with the Armored Facing Effects optional rule toggled OFF.

Honestly, I would be lucky to kill more than a platoon of Chieftains, if that, this entire scenario. By the looks of things, I might be fortunate to kill even just one!

Hopeless much?

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Post #: 38
RE: Crisis in Sirte #3: Riptide - 8/6/85 - DAR (no Cros... - 3/11/2017 7:38:12 PM   
berto


Posts: 19417
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TURN #6

Seeing the hopelessness of targeting the Chieftains, I try my luck vs. the Milan ATGMs.

A T-72 at hex 32,16 (green circle below) moves up slope and direct fires at the British ATGMs shrouded in smoke at hex 37,18 (white circle). The shot is wide of the mark. The T-72 retreats back to its original position out of LOS of the ATGMs.

Three T-72s advance to hex 31,15 (turquoise circle), direct fire at the Milan ATGMs across the way (yellow circle), and score a retreat:



In this scenario, for me, that's about as good as it gets.

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Post #: 39
RE: Crisis in Sirte #3: Riptide - 8/6/85 - DAR (no Cros... - 3/11/2017 8:06:35 PM   
berto


Posts: 19417
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TURN #6

Three more T-72s (turquoise circle) attempt direct fire at the Chieftains (white circle). Same deal, no effect.

Another T-72 (green circle) moves up slope, direct fires into the smoke at hex 37,18 (white circle), and forces the ATGMs there to retreat.

Again, as good as it gets.



Note the BMP-1s that fired earlier (one hex to the NE of the turquoise circle). They expended so many APs firing at the T-72s that they have insufficient left over to retreat to safety. They are sitting ducks next phase for those T-72s (or if not, then the Lynx).

Let's tally up thus far. Six Libyan T-72s direct fire at the three British Chieftains, at fairly close range (four hexes), and every shot either misses or bounces harmlessly off. For the four Libyan BMP-1s, same difference. That's 10 shots from a mere 1 KM away, and no hits, no disruptions, no retreats, nothing.

Five other T-72s fire at vulnerable ATGM units, no kills, two forced retreats only.

It seems like the only thing I can kill in this scenario is the occasional British scout car.

< Message edited by berto -- 3/12/2017 12:59:02 PM >


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Post #: 40
RE: Crisis in Sirte #3: Riptide - 8/6/85 - DAR (no Cros... - 3/11/2017 10:14:03 PM   
berto


Posts: 19417
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TURN #6

The attack in the center is stalled. Off a bit farther to the west, the Libyan left flank cowers in fear, and sees little point in advancing. Maybe I should send them north to "Yorkshire".

To the east, I am marshalling my forces for a push towards "Devonshire".

In the course of my phase, British MANPADs at "Devonshire" got in a shot at my Mi-2s. Fortunately they missed. Unfortunately I have no T-72s near enough to blast the MANPADs. I retire the Mi-2s to the right center, there to recon that sector.

My only credible (?) Chieftain killer, it seems, is my flight of two Mi-24 Hinds. I swing them around south of "Cumbria" and position them behind the center assault force. Flying NOE all the way, of course.

After my Side B (Libyan) move (Side B is the scenario's second side), the situation at the end of Turn 6:



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Post #: 41
RE: Crisis in Sirte #3: Riptide - 8/6/85 - DAR (no Cros... - 3/14/2017 1:23:08 AM   
berto


Posts: 19417
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From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
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TURN #7

In sending his Turn 7 moves, Crossroad had this to say:

quote:

Sometimes when it rains it pours.

To the center west, the Chieftain platoon does indeed blast the exposed BMP-1s (red circle, screenshot below), then slips away out of LOS.

To the center east, a British tank company lurches forward, in quick succession kills six T-72s and a platoon of Libyan scout cars (red circles), then retires out of LOS (in the general vicinity of the large yellow circle).

Some enemy scout cars flit by unexpectedly and disappear to the southeast (somewhere within the large white circle).

And of course my Hinds are now out of position to strike the only Chieftains now visible to me.

After Crossroads' Side A (British) move (Side A is the scenario's first side), the situation at the middle of Turn 7:



It's raining; it's pouring.
The old man is snoring.
He went to bed and bumped his head,
And didn't wake up the next morning.




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Post #: 42
RE: Crisis in Sirte #3: Riptide - 8/6/85 - DAR (no Cros... - 3/15/2017 9:03:04 PM   
berto


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From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
Status: offline

The Muslim Brotherhood is stirring up trouble, the Libyan populace is getting restless, and there are even rumors of a coup. The situation around Sirte had better improve right quick, else ...

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Post #: 43
RE: Crisis in Sirte #3: Riptide - 8/6/85 - DAR (no Cros... - 3/17/2017 1:46:51 AM   
berto


Posts: 19417
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From: metro Chicago, Illinois, USA
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... else it's over. I have quit the game. I wrote to Crossroads:

quote:

berto

A heads-up: In my DAR, I am setting the stage for a resignation. Yes, it is that bad. There is little reason to play on any further.

When I play, I think of the larger context. With things going so badly, Col. Qaddafi, or at any rate his military commanders, must consider the consequences of destroying their armed forces, leaving them defenseless against foreign invasion (Egypt etc.), popular uprising, or military coup. If I were commanding the Libyan military, I would be thinking of peace at this point, or a cease fire, or at least a pull-back.

In any event, the battle (scenario) will soon be over most likely.

I will admit my mistakes freely in my post mortem.

How bad is it? Here is the Victory Dialog:



And here (from the Strength Dialog) are the losses thus far:



Even if I could manage to capture any one of the 150 VP Objective hexes -- highly doubtful -- chances are I would destroy most of my forces in the process. The British Lynx alone still have enough ATGMs to kill another 10 or so of my T-72s, I reckon. Then of course there are the Chieftain super tanks. Not to mention Crossroads' Milan ATGMs and other units. No, I know an impossible situation when I see one.

Could another more skillful player have done better, much better even? No doubt. I am skeptical that this scenario is winnable as the Libyans. But a player well versed in the art of modern warfare might make a good fight of it. I am not that player.

So let's recount my mistakes:

  • Choosing to attack up the middle. With open ground, no real cover, little place to hide. And laying myself wide open to flanking attacks. Much better if I had attacked along the coastal approaches from west and east, for if nothing else I would not have to fear flank attacks from the north. And I would benefit from the LOS obstructing terrain before "Yorkshire" and "Bedfordshire".

  • Mismanagement of my helos. And indecisiveness. My helos never really got into the fight.

  • Impatience. I led with my tanks, where better if I had led with my infantry, with tanks just behind in close support. I also brought up my ZSU-23-4 SPAA Guns and AT-3 Sagger ATGMs too slowly.

    And others. But maybe my biggest mistake of all:

  • Heeding Crossroads' advice, I played half way through a practice game of Sirte #3 as the Libyans vs. the British A/I, to get the "feel of things". BUT, there is no helo A/I yet, remember? So in my practice game, the British Lynx were a total non factor. In the practice game, I also attacked up the middle. Things were going pretty well, actually. I was even able to destroy a couple of Chieftains, at the loss of just several of my T-72s. Of course, playing vs. the A/I teaches bad habits, however, and gives one a false sense of confidence. There is no substitute for playing vs. a good, experienced opponent, which Crossroads is in spades. (And he's the scenario designer to boot!) (Crossroads also encouraged me to play a practice game as the British, to better understand what I was up against. But I don't like to "cheat" in that way. I much more enjoy going into a scenario "blind".)

    Ah well, a learning experience, a painful learning experience, an embarrassing if there ever was one.

    Until the next time ...

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  • Post #: 44
    RE: Crisis in Sirte #3: Riptide - 8/6/85 - DAR (no Cros... - 3/17/2017 8:19:40 AM   
    Big Ivan


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    berto,

    There is no shame here, I thought you did your best.

    Thanks for posting this AAR! Like the Crossroads one before it, I have enjoyed it and learned a few things in the process.

    Cheers my friend!

    Big Ivan

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    Post #: 45
    RE: Crisis in Sirte #3: Riptide - 8/6/85 - DAR (no Cros... - 3/18/2017 8:33:37 AM   
    Crossroads


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    And so it ends. Thanks for the game Berto!

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: berto

    Ah well, a learning experience, a painful learning experience, an embarrassing if there ever was one.

    Until the next time ...


    ..and playing outside your comfort zone, with the 1980s hypotheticals era I am an unashamed fool for.

    Learning experience? Perhaps, but embarrassment, never.With smaller battles like this one, there's less chances for recovery once things go bad. And my Brits certainly had the luck of the Irish with the St Patrick's day looming around, in those few key moments so far.

    I'll write an After Action Report tomorrow, things were much more close than perhaps seen from the Libyan side. At least that's how it felt to me, so let us compare notes.

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    Post #: 46
    RE: Crisis in Sirte #3: Riptide - 8/6/85 - DAR (no Cros... - 3/18/2017 8:38:03 AM   
    Crossroads


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: **budd**

    Not much of a modern war guy myself, i feel your pain i got spanked by Crossroads and Jason. I think this scenario is where Crossroads put the spanking on me, not sure though because the VP's look slightly different.


    Nope, not this one, so if you got spanked it was by Jason. He does that often, to everyone... We played 1. Prelude and 2. Bridgehead, you as Brits me a Gaddafi's henchmen. A Minor Win for you from the first one and a Draw from the second.

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    Visit us at: Campaign Series Legion
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    CS: Vietnam | CS: East Front 1939-1941 IN-THE-WORKS
    CS: Middle East 1948-1985 Fully reimaged v2.0 available now!

    (in reply to budd)
    Post #: 47
    RE: Crisis in Sirte #3: Riptide - 8/6/85 - DAR (no Cros... - 3/18/2017 12:29:45 PM   
    budd


    Posts: 2877
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    From: Tacoma
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Crossroads


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: **budd**

    Not much of a modern war guy myself, i feel your pain i got spanked by Crossroads and Jason. I think this scenario is where Crossroads put the spanking on me, not sure though because the VP's look slightly different.


    Nope, not this one, so if you got spanked it was by Jason. He does that often, to everyone... We played 1. Prelude and 2. Bridgehead, you as Brits me a Gaddafi's henchmen. A Minor Win for you from the first one and a Draw from the second.


    It must of been #2 the draw. I remember being disappointed in my plan and execution, or course the statue of limitations on my memory is 30 days. Looking forward to you guys next go around, always learn something reading your AAR's, thank you.


    < Message edited by **budd** -- 3/18/2017 12:30:23 PM >


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    Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

    "Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

    *I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
    I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

    (in reply to Crossroads)
    Post #: 48
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