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Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs Mr Kane - 2/14/2017 2:45:15 AM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3505
Joined: 2/14/2004
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虎穴に入らずんば虎子を得ず。 (Koketsu ni irazunba koji wo ezu) [I hope the site I got the above was correct]
[The Japanese is not copying correctly )

Its been nearly two years since my last game of AE and I am striking out with another game against MrKane. I do not
recognize his name much, but I hear he is a tough and aggressive opponent. I looked in the AARs and saw at least one
other game he is involved in but I haven't seen him do an AAR so I don't have much intel on his thinking.. only his
results. He seems very aggressive as the Japanese but unknown on his Allied skills - but chances are he will beat me.
Oh well, Nothing Ventured... nothing gained.

We have settled on DaIronBabes-B with the extended map with Stacking Limits. I will be Japan and MrKane will be the
Allies.

Settings are all normal except:

Non-Historical Turn One
PDU On

We have a couple of House Rules..

1. Must pay PPs to move units across national borders - so I have to buy my Kwangtung units out before they can move
into China.

2. Resizing on CVs is allowed as long as the air unit stays on the carrier. If air units are resized and operate from
land bases they may only be as large as a normal unit for that type.


I will enter my orders for Turn One and then send to MrKane. He is permitted to give orders to all Chinese units
as well as any TFs already formed with one caveat.. He cannot send TFs on attack missions. They can react, but cannot
attack directly... The Allies weren't looking to start a war, but the British were definitely watching...

So while I plan, if anyone has any information on MrKane's playstyle or things that may help me feel free to post and
warn me now...

I have asked MrKane not to read this AAR so we can discuss strategy and results... I will be looking for help from
the older players especially when I get into late 43 and beyond...

Time to get back to the turn and I will post more as I figure out my non-historical First Turn...

BANZAI!!!!



< Message edited by Xargun -- 2/14/2017 8:49:04 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 2:56:11 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 15428
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

虎穴に入らずんば虎子を得ず。 (Koketsu ni irazunba koji wo ezu) [I hope the site I got the above was correct]
[The Japanese is not copying correctly )


The Board software only supports a few fonts. Japanese fonts are not supported so it take the ASCII number for the Japanese font set you copied, finds the corresponding number in the current font face and displays that character instead.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 2
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 4:19:38 AM   
Aurorus

 

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I have read an AAR of a game that he is involved in and scanned another one from a couple years ago. He had been playing Japan. He plays several games at once and by all accounts gets his turns back to you very quickly. As Japan, he plays rather fast... meaning that he goes for territorial conquests rather than trying to destroy allied assets... i.e. Mersing and quickly into Palembang... one and done at Pearl Harbor and so forth. He likes to drive deep and he is struggling a bit in his latest game against a more aggressive allied player, Olerin, who is very familiar with the Japanese order of battle.

He will be intimately familiar with the Japanese order of battle, since he has played Japan several times. He will know what you are capable of and where you are weak to start. I would expect him to read and react agressively, attacking where you are not. You may be able to bate him into a CV engagement at some point in early 42 if you can disguise the location of KB for a time.

With your mod, there is no fortress Palembang possibility, correct? I don't know for certain as I only play stock. As such, I would expect him to quickly reinforce Ambon and concentrate his forces on Java. Just because he cannot fortress Palembang does not mean that you should be slow getting there. He will move engineers there rapidly, I suspect, to try to destroy the oil when it falls. Try to cut them off. Force Z will be positioned between Java and Sumatra I expect along with the Brit cruisers after Dec. 7 to try to defend Singkawang and Palembang. If you do not land at Mersing, paradrop, or otherwise cut off the Indian Brigades at Alor Star, he will probably move the Brit units at sea to defend Singapore. If you can somehow convince him that you are headed directly to Burma, you might convince him to reinforce Burma rather than Singapore and have an easier time of it in Malaysia.

I recommend focusing on key military assets rather than rapid advance to deprive him of his ability to counterpunch. Destroy the airforce in the Philipines. Don't let him buy them out and give you fits for the next 5 months after they have improved to experience 60. If you neglect the airfield on Luzon too long, he will even have those B-17s repaired and bought out. Get them asap. With stacking limits the Luzon campaign will be a slug-a-thon. You need not be in a terrible rush on the ground there.

Cover your invasions and use amphibious operations as opportunities to invite surface combat to your liking. You have a major advantage at night through 43. Use it.

Finally, if this is your first time playing Japan, plan your first turn very carefully. Think ahead. It is not just about the warping task forces. You have divisions and on the home islands, and another in China that can be deployed elsewhere. Plot enough fast-troop-movers to those ports to get those guys going on day 3. You can muster enough 21 and 23 speed APS to move the division in China at high speed on day 3. Convert a lot of the poorer AKs into ACMs, PBs, and especially AMcs. You can clear out the mines around Butaan with 1 VP AMCs and lost maybe a total of 10 victory points. If you take Manilla, BBs can rearm in the port and hammer both Clark and Butaan, releasing some of the pressure from your ground forces, since you can't just heap up a big 2-1 stack.

Also convert some of your larger 14 speed AKs and 12 speed AKs to troop movers. The 12 speed AKs can get into the small ports. Use the full capacity or your ports as often as possibly. The biggest advantage that Japan has is light troops that are fast and easy to move. This is especially so during the amphibious bonus, but you must have ships capable of getting in and out of every size port.

That's all I can think of for now.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 3
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 5:10:56 AM   
Aurorus

 

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I just thought ouf something else. PDU:On gives Japan an enormous advantage (far too much of an advantage actually). Focus your plane research on the best models. Do not bother much with accelerating the Oscar line, as you would in a PDU:Off game. They are ok air-superiority fighters, but just can't match up against 4Es or even 2Es. Focus heavily on Tojo research to start. They are available in 9/42 and the R&D will come on line quickly. Once you get the Tojos, get the production going and get every frontline squadron converted over. Then go for the Tonys, then the Franks. In a PDU:off game, the Tony's just aren't worth it, since there aren't many squadrons. In a PDU:On game, they are Japan's version of the P38s. In 43, start focusing on night fighters. Once the daytime is filled with 47s, you will have a hard go of it, so take control of the nighttime skies. Also notice that Japan has a radar-guided medium-bomber. Might be worth accerelating that as well later on to do some night bombing. I have no idea if it is useful as a night-bomber or not. Also the A6M2 Rufe is always good. The R&D will come online quickly and upgrade to A6M5s. Heavy research in the Rufe will get you the A6M5 before the A6M3a, and in PDU;on, you can just skip the not-much-of-an-upgrade A6M3. By December 42, you can then freely convert the A6M5 R&D to further progress the zone line. The same applies to the Tojo.

(in reply to Aurorus)
Post #: 4
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 12:26:23 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9436
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

I just thought ouf something else. PDU:On gives Japan an enormous advantage (far too much of an advantage actually). Focus your plane research on the best models. Do not bother much with accelerating the Oscar line, as you would in a PDU:Off game. They are ok air-superiority fighters, but just can't match up against 4Es or even 2Es. Focus heavily on Tojo research to start. They are available in 9/42 and the R&D will come on line quickly. Once you get the Tojos, get the production going and get every frontline squadron converted over. Then go for the Tonys, then the Franks. In a PDU:off game, the Tony's just aren't worth it, since there aren't many squadrons. In a PDU:On game, they are Japan's version of the P38s. In 43, start focusing on night fighters. Once the daytime is filled with 47s, you will have a hard go of it, so take control of the nighttime skies. Also notice that Japan has a radar-guided medium-bomber. Might be worth accerelating that as well later on to do some night bombing. I have no idea if it is useful as a night-bomber or not. Also the A6M2 Rufe is always good. The R&D will come online quickly and upgrade to A6M5s. Heavy research in the Rufe will get you the A6M5 before the A6M3a, and in PDU;on, you can just skip the not-much-of-an-upgrade A6M3. By December 42, you can then freely convert the A6M5 R&D to further progress the zone line. The same applies to the Tojo.

You already know I totally disagree with the above ...

good luck here. ping me if you want any help.

Mr. Kane is aggressive, so you should expect something in late '42. He once invaded Java 9/42? or so and completely wrecked his opponents defense and economy as the IJ was unable to dislodge him and he was able to trash Palembang/Balikpapan before the IJ had enough oil/fuel stocked. It was a great move. I wouldn't expect to see that again, but he will have a grand plan and it will have overwhelming force at the point of attack ...

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Aurorus)
Post #: 5
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 1:02:50 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 19763
Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

I just thought ouf something else. PDU:On gives Japan an enormous advantage (far too much of an advantage actually). Focus your plane research on the best models. Do not bother much with accelerating the Oscar line, as you would in a PDU:Off game. They are ok air-superiority fighters, but just can't match up against 4Es or even 2Es. Focus heavily on Tojo research to start. They are available in 9/42 and the R&D will come on line quickly. Once you get the Tojos, get the production going and get every frontline squadron converted over. Then go for the Tonys, then the Franks. In a PDU:off game, the Tony's just aren't worth it, since there aren't many squadrons. In a PDU:On game, they are Japan's version of the P38s. In 43, start focusing on night fighters. Once the daytime is filled with 47s, you will have a hard go of it, so take control of the nighttime skies. Also notice that Japan has a radar-guided medium-bomber. Might be worth accerelating that as well later on to do some night bombing. I have no idea if it is useful as a night-bomber or not. Also the A6M2 Rufe is always good. The R&D will come online quickly and upgrade to A6M5s. Heavy research in the Rufe will get you the A6M5 before the A6M3a, and in PDU;on, you can just skip the not-much-of-an-upgrade A6M3. By December 42, you can then freely convert the A6M5 R&D to further progress the zone line. The same applies to the Tojo.

You already know I totally disagree with the above ...




+1 agree with Pax here.

Several things come to mind, and I am a big fan of Mr. Kane.

1. He is a master of large CV battles. Really understands game mechanics and is very familiar with both sides.

2. He will fight tooth and claw for China most likely. Expect a huge air supply operation India to China.

3. Supply is your enemy in a pdu on game. Beware huge plane r&d expenditures and concentrate on fighters. Focus on early Frank (10 factories of size 30 from day 1). For the Navy you will need the Sam. Pick Jack or George you will need them to counter his aggressive Lightning sweeps in 43 and you should get Frank A in mid 43 to help.

The only other plane I would research heavily would be Judy (3-4 size 30 groups; Jill 2-3 size 30). No other groups would have 3 or more size 30 factories with the exception of fighters Oscar, Zero, Tojo and Tony.


I would play a less than historical expansion, except for China and Burma. A tough defense with the goal of keeping the KB a force in being to 1945 and stockpiling huge amounts of supply. Of course you can play any strategy you want.

Good luck.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 6
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 3:50:51 PM   
Xargun

 

Posts: 3505
Joined: 2/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

+1 agree with Pax here.

Several things come to mind, and I am a big fan of Mr. Kane.

1. He is a master of large CV battles. Really understands game mechanics and is very familiar with both sides.

2. He will fight tooth and claw for China most likely. Expect a huge air supply operation India to China.

3. Supply is your enemy in a pdu on game. Beware huge plane r&d expenditures and concentrate on fighters. Focus on early Frank (10 factories of size 30 from day 1). For the Navy you will need the Sam. Pick Jack or George you will need them to counter his aggressive Lightning sweeps in 43 and you should get Frank A in mid 43 to help.


I have some experience with the mod having played it into '43 before. Supply usually isn't my trouble - having it where I need it is.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
The only other plane I would research heavily would be Judy (3-4 size 30 groups; Jill 2-3 size 30). No other groups would have 3 or more size 30 factories with the exception of fighters Oscar, Zero, Tojo and Tony.


Looks like I have 79 R&D Factories to play with in this version, so I need to decide what to go for and how hard. Just to be sure - if I don't dedicate any R&D Factories to an aircraft, I still get it at the listed date correct ? I just won't have any factory ready to produce it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
I would play a less than historical expansion, except for China and Burma. A tough defense with the goal of keeping the KB a force in being to 1945 and stockpiling huge amounts of supply. Of course you can play any strategy you want.

Good luck.


With the feeling that MrKane is aggressive (everyone says so) I was thinking a normal expansion, and maybe try to knock out China as my 'emphasis' for this game. Or maybe push him back to Chungking and simply bomb him back to the prehistoric ages ? (China is already almost in the stone age)

I hope to have my aircraft sortied out today and will post this evening for review by you guys. Don't be afraid to tell me I'm being stupid, as chances are I will be on some things.

Xargun

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 7
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 4:16:17 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 24987
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: online
I just finished a PBM with Babes 28-C (that's the reduced shipping capacity variant), extended map, stacking limits. Supply will be an issue for you past '43. Iron Babes maybe sooner, as all Iron variant (even stock) AAR's I see say that Japan gets more toys but not more to feed them. If he focuses on destroying supply generation and inducing you to burn supply, maybe you will see shortages even sooner.

In China - funny coincidence - supply is the Allies' Achilles Heal. Since HR's don't forbid it, from day one destroy his supply generation anyplace you can't quickly capture. It will hasten the fall of China. Over stacking of Chinese units will cost him mountains of supply, so (even more than usual) retreating his units is good for you because it will often cause over stacking.

Get to the bases on the road to Burma as soon as possible. He should be paranoid about you getting there before he can reinforce them, but he might not be. Cutting him off from the Burma side is good, but he can eventually counter attack from Burma, so having those bases in the mountains of China makes a difference. Even if you don't get them all those limited roads in the mountain terrain make a very good defensive position when (if) the Allies attack from Burma.

I won't repeat others' advice, but did I mention destroy the Allies supply in China?

The AAR is a long read (>5 years) but I made many comments on the defense in China, so FYI:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2966329

_____________________________


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Post #: 8
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 4:27:45 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I just finished a PBM with Babes 28-C (that's the reduced shipping capacity variant), extended map, stacking limits. Supply will be an issue for you past '43.


Yep, the endgame will be brutal I suspect with respect to lack of supply.

Your plans sounds find, but taking Chungking with SL is a piece of cake and the single largest VP haul of the game most likely for you.

If you are going for China, you will want to go early and hard into Burma and take Ledo.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 9
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 4:58:06 PM   
Xargun

 

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Aircraft Stats:

What is the order of importance - looking mostly at Fighters and Bombers? I am listing some stats below each one but are pretty sure they are not the most important.


Fighters:

1. Max Speed
2. Durability
3. Armor
4. Guns (Firepower)
5. Range

Bombers:

1. Cruise Speed
2. Range
3. Durability
4. Armor
5. Payload


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 10
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 5:14:08 PM   
Lowpe


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I think that is the wrong way to look at Japanese fighters. You have offense and defense subject to the most important criteria:

First and foremost is date available. The second is what you need to counter to take advantage of defensively. Finally look to offense.

Lightnings can start sweeping mid 42. Corsairs end of 42. Jugs mid to late 43. Heavy bombers mid 42 and gets progressively worse. You need counters to all these.

Anti bombers: you need cannons. At first the A6M2, then Rufes and Nicks, to George/Jack, Tony.

Offensively you need sweepers and escorts. Sweepers can be Zeroes, Nicks, and Tojo early on. Then George rules supreme for a while. Escorts the Oscar line is great, as is Zero.

Sam and Franks are must haves, you can play around with the others but you do need some of them and you need to learn how to use them.

Most Japanese players advocate going after either Jack or George but not both. I have always had trouble getting Jacks to sweep well (short range and poor performance). Georges sweep great for me. But the Jack has something going for it...it is a great CAP fighter defensively and even better it comes super early compared to George especially the finally third model. It also uses a non fighter engine. The 2nd Jack is also SR2.

I will never play a game as Japan without having both George and Jack.








(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 11
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 5:29:02 PM   
Aurorus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
The only other plane I would research heavily would be Judy (3-4 size 30 groups; Jill 2-3 size 30). No other groups would have 3 or more size 30 factories with the exception of fighters Oscar, Zero, Tojo and Tony.


Looks like I have 79 R&D Factories to play with in this version, so I need to decide what to go for and how hard. Just to be sure - if I don't dedicate any R&D Factories to an aircraft, I still get it at the listed date correct ? I just won't have any factory ready to produce it.


You have more than that. You can expand the existing factories, but they come online slowly. I don't know why Lowpe thinks the Oscar is worth acclerating in a PDU:On game. Lowpe, why? Plane research is not that complex. You are going to want to have about 150 Tojo factories once the Tojo comes online. So just convert 5 factories at the start to 30 plane Tojo factories. If you are not playing realistic R&D, you can then convert the Oscar factories to Frank research once the Tojo is available, since you will be replacing Oscars with Tojos (and you will, I assure you). If you are not using realistic R$D, probably start with only 3 30 factories researching Tojo and convert the Oscar factories to Tojo production.

You will want maybe 2 30 plane factories to produce Tonies (they use 2 engines so are expensive to produce)... Convert at least 2 factories at the start to Tony (better is more... then once the Tony is available... convert these to Franks). Lowpe's right about the Judy. Its heavier bomb load is a marked and important upgrade over the Val.


(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 12
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 5:42:11 PM   
Xargun

 

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Joined: 2/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I think that is the wrong way to look at Japanese fighters. You have offense and defense subject to the most important criteria:

First and foremost is date available. The second is what you need to counter to take advantage of defensively. Finally look to offense.

Lightnings can start sweeping mid 42. Corsairs end of 42. Jugs mid to late 43. Heavy bombers mid 42 and gets progressively worse. You need counters to all these.

Anti bombers: you need cannons. At first the A6M2, then Rufes and Nicks, to George/Jack, Tony.

Offensively you need sweepers and escorts. Sweepers can be Zeroes, Nicks, and Tojo early on. Then George rules supreme for a while. Escorts the Oscar line is great, as is Zero.

Sam and Franks are must haves, you can play around with the others but you do need some of them and you need to learn how to use them.

Most Japanese players advocate going after either Jack or George but not both. I have always had trouble getting Jacks to sweep well (short range and poor performance). Georges sweep great for me. But the Jack has something going for it...it is a great CAP fighter defensively and even better it comes super early compared to George especially the finally third model. It also uses a non fighter engine. The 2nd Jack is also SR2.

I will never play a game as Japan without having both George and Jack.


I understand the differences and have my current selections based both off stats and specific needs.. ie CV fighters, land-based fighters, fighters for escorting bombers, fights to kill enemy bombers, etc...

I was just wondering when I'm contemplating between two similar models of aircraft how should I rate them to pick the better one ? Same with bombers... should I favor range over payload ? is 1 hex more that important ?

Might just be easier when I pick my choices you guys can question / hack apart my choices.

Xargun

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 13
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 6:10:35 PM   
Lowpe


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Why I like the Oscar, You Ask?

Supply efficient: Both efficient in linked upgrades thru the entire line; and also in that production can start very early which means you can ultimately have more planes produced at a lower supply cost. Japan needs a ton of fighters.

Useful planes: A good escort Plane thru 44. Even when it is outclassed, it has uses especially in cap traps versus marauding Allied carrier forces, on islands, and deep anti bomber defense, as a kamikaze. The closer you get to 45 and beyond, the pilots really like to ram those heavy bombers. Only the IV works as an antibomber deep defense, and it is better than nothing. Has a real great chance to sweep ahead when used as an escort.

Engine: uses an early engine for the whole game.

Versatility: Payload and Range. The IIb sports dual 250 kg bombers and makes for a great light bomber in China. The IIIa has excellent range 8 normal, 10 normal with drop tanks. Very useful.

Having the Oscar around frees up other frames from having to perform escort duties etc.

SR1. Great on islands, bases without rails. Especially places I dislike flying sr3 planes into. Ki100 works well here, but comes very late. Zeroes are okay, but are needed as antibomber planes more I find.




(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 14
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 6:23:59 PM   
Aurorus

 

Posts: 1314
Joined: 5/26/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

Aircraft Stats:

What is the order of importance - looking mostly at Fighters and Bombers? I am listing some stats below each one but are pretty sure they are not the most important.


Fighters:

1. Max Speed
2. Durability
3. Armor
4. Guns (Firepower)
5. Range

Bombers:

1. Cruise Speed
2. Range
3. Durability
4. Armor
5. Payload





It is not so much which is the most important as each aircraft is best suited for slightly different purposes. In PDU:on, it is less about finding the value in each aircraft than in finding the best aircraft, period. In general, speed kills, but speed can be offset a bit by manueverability. Your best 1942 fighter is the Tojo. It is a nice package of damage with reasonable speed. It is a glass cannon, however, and lacks the staying power or survivability of the Oscar IIs. Once you have your Tojo IIas, drop the Tojo line and move on to Tonies and Franks. Your best 43 fighter is the Tony. It is speed, altitude, and firepower. Your best endwar fighter that is realistically achievable in R&D is the Frank.

As to the navy. Jacks and NIk (Georges) are your best land-based. If you want the Jacks, which are slightly better, you will need to accelerate them with heavy R&D. I reocommend, however, just going with the N1K. It comes online, without any research (yes... if there is no R&D, you still get the plane at its listed date), in March 43. If you put 3 factories on it at the start, you may acclerate it a couple months. It is hard to accelerate, however, because it uses the Mit 42 engine, which you will not have in abundance prior to 43. The question really are your carriers. Both the Jacks and the N1Ks are land-based only. This is why I recommend the Zero line and Rufes at the start. They are easy to accelerate, because they use the Nak 35 engine, which you can expand and get to 500 in the pool quickly. 500 engines in your pool gives you a very important R&D bonus. The A7M2 is fine plane but comes online very late and is very difficult to accelerate. By the time you get it, no matter how much R&D you put into it, your carriers will not be your primary weapon any longer. Accelerating the A6M line will keep your carriers competitive through 43.

(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 15
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 6:26:38 PM   
Aurorus

 

Posts: 1314
Joined: 5/26/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Why I like the Oscar, You Ask?

Supply efficient: Both efficient in linked upgrades thru the entire line; and also in that production can start very early which means you can ultimately have more planes produced at a lower supply cost. Japan needs a ton of fighters.

Useful planes: A good escort Plane thru 44. Even when it is outclassed, it has uses especially in cap traps versus marauding Allied carrier forces, on islands, and deep anti bomber defense, as a kamikaze. The closer you get to 45 and beyond, the pilots really like to ram those heavy bombers. Only the IV works as an antibomber deep defense, and it is better than nothing. Has a real great chance to sweep ahead when used as an escort.

Engine: uses an early engine for the whole game.

Versatility: Payload and Range. The IIb sports dual 250 kg bombers and makes for a great light bomber in China. The IIIa has excellent range 8 normal, 10 normal with drop tanks. Very useful.

Having the Oscar around frees up other frames from having to perform escort duties etc.

SR1. Great on islands, bases without rails. Especially places I dislike flying sr3 planes into. Ki100 works well here, but comes very late. Zeroes are okay, but are needed as antibomber planes more I find.







I agree with everyone that you say here. In a PDU:off game, I would invest heavily in Oscar research, but Japan will not maintain air superiority into 1943 with Oscars. With the Tojos, Tonies, and Frank, they can and do. Just ask most of Mr. Kane's allied opponents. Their air pools are empty and their air force on the defensive well into 43 because of his focus on Tojos and Tonies.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 16
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 6:57:48 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 19763
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Oscar is not an air superiority fighter...I think we are talking cross purposes.

Jack is easily researched and doesn't need a major commitment. all the way to the third model; much easier than the George since Jack has earlier dates and comes with an engine in production already. One of the beauties of the Jack.

Also, I think you have mixed up Nick with Tonies.




(in reply to Aurorus)
Post #: 17
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 6:58:24 PM   
Xargun

 

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More aircraft Questions:

Is the G4M2e Betty worth using? Does anyone use them?

Is the Ki-67-Ia (Ib) Peggy worth building?
Is the Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy worth building?

I usually build the Ki-49 Helen as my main bomber but am looking at the Peggy and wondering. The Helen has a larger payload, but less range and speed.


(in reply to Aurorus)
Post #: 18
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 7:19:36 PM   
Aurorus

 

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Joined: 5/26/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Oscar is not an air superiority fighter...I think we are talking cross purposes.

Jack is easily researched and doesn't need a major commitment. all the way to the third model; much easier than the George since Jack has earlier dates and comes with an engine in production already. One of the beauties of the Jack.

Also, I think you have mixed up Nick with Tonies.







Not the Nick... i.e Ki-45, which is a good plane, but does not need research since you get it in early 42, and should be used in several squadrons asap... the N1K (George). And not the the Ki-100 Tony (which comes online in 45)... the Ki 61 Tony, which comes online in 43 and uses the Kawasaki engine. You are right that I am mistaken about the N1k (George). It does not come online until 9/43. I forgot that the reason that I prefer the N1k to the J2M is the Nak 45 engine, which you want to R&D and then produce to 500 for Frank research later. The J2M uses an engine that really isn't all that helpful in other research.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 19
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 7:35:08 PM   
Aurorus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

More aircraft Questions:

Is the G4M2e Betty worth using? Does anyone use them?

Is the Ki-67-Ia (Ib) Peggy worth building?
Is the Ki-67-Ia (T) Peggy worth building?

I usually build the Ki-49 Helen as my main bomber but am looking at the Peggy and wondering. The Helen has a larger payload, but less range and speed.




I would maintain some diversity in your bomber pool and not worry about R&D. The payloads vary for each bomber, and I am not sure what changes your mod makes to the payloads. Use the bombers with heavier payloads against more fortified targets and the bombers with lighter payloads against soft targets, especially those in clear terrain.

Lowpe loves the Sonia, actually, and so do I. For the supply usage, it packs a better punch even than the medium bombers against soft targets, with its 4 50kg bombs, at least in stock. You also get an armored version of it in late 43. The Lily is the first to get armor and when it does, it should be used against flack heavy targets. Before that, stick with Sallies and Helens against the heavy flak.

(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 20
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 9:28:13 PM   
Hotei

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

Accelerating the A6M line will keep your carriers competitive through 43.



How should the M5 series be researched, all of them or just the last?

(in reply to Aurorus)
Post #: 21
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 9:52:26 PM   
Aurorus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotei


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

Accelerating the A6M line will keep your carriers competitive through 43.



How should the M5 series be researched, all of them or just the last?


Start with the A6M2 Rufe exclusive. These factories will come online very quickly and then you will have the option to automatically upgrade them to the A6M5 for free. This will fast-track your A6M research... really the fastest tree to develop of any. In a PDU:On game, you can ignore the A6M3a completely. In PDU:Off, you may want to put 2 factories R&D on A6M3a, only because with 6 factories working on the A6M5 and 500 engines in the pool, the A6M5 will actually become available 2 months before the A6M3a, and you will not be able to upgrade your squadrons to the M5 without first upgrading to the M3a. You do not have this problem in PDU:On, as you can bypass the squadrons' upgrade trees.

(in reply to Hotei)
Post #: 22
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 10:01:09 PM   
Hotei

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotei


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

Accelerating the A6M line will keep your carriers competitive through 43.



How should the M5 series be researched, all of them or just the last?


Start with the A6M2 Rufe exclusive. These factories will come online very quickly and then you will have the option to automatically upgrade them to the A6M5 for free. This will fast-track your A6M research... really the fastest tree to develop of any. In a PDU:On game, you can ignore the A6M3a completely. In PDU:Off, you may want to put 2 factories R&D on A6M3a, only because with 6 factories working on the A6M5 and 500 engines in the pool, the A6M5 will actually become available 2 months before the A6M3a, and you will not be able to upgrade your squadrons to the M5 without first upgrading to the M3a. You do not have this problem in PDU:On, as you can bypass the squadrons' upgrade trees.


Thank you, I need to look the relevant threads on the issue.
There still seems to remain a lot of decisions a player must make based on his grand strategy.

(in reply to Aurorus)
Post #: 23
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 11:12:49 PM   
Xargun

 

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Question. Mr Kane has given me pretty much carte blanche on my turn one. I am thinking of hitting both Pearl Harbor and Manila with a split KB. I have never done this, but I am thinking the subs are more of a pain in the long run than the slow BBs at Pearl. Is it worth hitting Pearl just to damage whatever I can and killing planes? Or should I hit Manila with everything.. thus having KB nearby to support my invasions in the DEI since Force Z will most likely flee southward?

I am wondering if sending 2 CVs to Pearl and 4 to Manila would be worth it? What do you guys recommend ?

(in reply to Hotei)
Post #: 24
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/14/2017 11:53:01 PM   
BBfanboy


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You need more CVs to do anything significant to PH.
Several players have taken Kaga from KB and put her with Ryujo/Zuiho to make a powerful squadron that can take on Manila and will sink many of the subs there.

That leaves five to hit PH. What you have to hope for is sinking the CAs and big CLs at PH. They are much more useful than the old BBs early on. Destroying some aircraft is good too, but he can easily make up the losses.

Unless you have a "no carrier hunting on turn one" rule, you could send KB to a spot between Wake and Roi-Namur to support the Wake landings and maybe surprise the USN CVs.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 25
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/15/2017 12:13:09 AM   
Aurorus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xargun

Question. Mr Kane has given me pretty much carte blanche on my turn one. I am thinking of hitting both Pearl Harbor and Manila with a split KB. I have never done this, but I am thinking the subs are more of a pain in the long run than the slow BBs at Pearl. Is it worth hitting Pearl just to damage whatever I can and killing planes? Or should I hit Manila with everything.. thus having KB nearby to support my invasions in the DEI since Force Z will most likely flee southward?

I am wondering if sending 2 CVs to Pearl and 4 to Manila would be worth it? What do you guys recommend ?



Against Mr. Kane I recommend going after Pearl big time, either with all 6 or with 5. With all your carriers in the west and nothing but A5s in the Pacific, he can make use of those BBs along with his CVs early by getting straight to the business in Centpac. Those A5s on Rio Namur are hard to upgrade to A6Ms at first, because the airfield is not large enough and the HQ does not have enough supply. They have to be sent back to Truk to upgrade... 7 days really to get the squadron upgraded and back into position covering Centpac. He knows this and with the F4Fs from Pearl and Wake, he will have decided air superiority in Centpac for at least a week.

Read through a few AARs about the Pearl strikes. There is one in particular that went very wrong. He will probably sortie undamaged CAs and DDs to try to get at 1st Air Fleet. Whether you stay for a 2nd day or not is an in-game decision. I would note that manage disparage those BBs at Pearl, but reading late game AARs shows them often playing a prominent role, and you will be dependent on your surface fleet later in the game. It is nice to have a BB advantage there. Note Alfred's comments about the Pearl Strike vs. Manilla and Singapore. IMO Alfred gets it.

(in reply to Xargun)
Post #: 26
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/15/2017 12:14:25 AM   
Lowpe


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pdu on I would never build the sonia, but I would use the ones I start with. There is an argument for making a single engine bomber like Mary or Ann. Look at the engine pools and decide accordingly.

Converting all the light bombers over to fighter bombers (nicks) comes at a fairly steep political price but you can do it, and it adds a huge amount of versatility to your deep defense and even your early 42 sweeps where the Nick really shines. A lot of Japanese players swear that the nick makes for a great kamikaze...but at two engines I would rather focus on Judy and Jill as kamikazes. Judy packs a punch and Jill has long range.

If you focus on Manila you lose the chance to sink the POW. You can hunt the POW with the Akagi detached or strike Manila with her.

You can, is a little risky, bombard Pearl with your fast battleships. Make sure you stand off maximum range...

You can set your Zeroes to bomb Pearl's airfield from 7=10K instead of strafing. You can even use them to bomb the ships, sometimes their little bombs can start and grow fires. At least you aren't losing a dozen or more to AA.






The A6M2, 3, 3a, 5, 5b are kind of meh but are some of your best antibomber planes during that timeframe. The 5c with armor can fight bombers for the entire game but is god awful slow but can stand up to the Lightning in mid 43 when you should plan on getting her. The A6M8 suffers from poor range, but is still better than the 5c.

Just remember Frank and Sam...you can make a lot of mistakes, but if you get those two (mid 43 for Frank A, mid 44 for Sam) you will be in okay shape. One tactic is to assign 5 size 30 on the shinden immediately, M-M advocates that.

You can stay a second day at Pearl, but sweep it destroying even more early planes and pilots then bomb from altitude on a third day. Vals and Kates at 9. 2nd day you set your Vals and Kates to strike naval targets short of Pearl...they either get a day of rest or savage a surface raiding fleet of the Allies that is hunting for your KB.

If you do stick around, surround the KB with all your subs, so the Allied surface sortie has to get thru it to your KB, and break off a small surface group to patrol 1 hex in front of the KB to help protect the KB from a nasty Obvert style disaster.







< Message edited by Lowpe -- 2/15/2017 12:32:35 AM >

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 27
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/15/2017 2:08:44 AM   
Aurorus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

You can stay a second day at Pearl, but sweep it destroying even more early planes and pilots then bomb from altitude on a third day. Vals and Kates at 9. 2nd day you set your Vals and Kates to strike naval targets short of Pearl...they either get a day of rest or savage a surface raiding fleet of the Allies that is hunting for your KB.

If you do stick around, surround the KB with all your subs, so the Allied surface sortie has to get thru it to your KB, and break off a small surface group to patrol 1 hex in front of the KB to help protect the KB from a nasty Obvert style disaster.



Giving away the good stuff for free, I see. Well, since we are giving away the good stuff... let me recommend moving KB about 9 hexes from Pearl on Day 2 and set to range 6 or 7, if you are going to go for naval targets so that you don't launch a poorly coordinated strike on a task force sitting right on Pearl and get your planes chewed up by CAP.

Also, a lot of JFBs rest or take out their 80+ exp. flight commanders to avoid losing them to flack or Air-to-Air in the Pearl strike. In my experience (and I've tested the attack on Pearl about 50 times), you get the best results by leaving the 80 exp flight commanders active in the squadrons. Much more likely to carry torpedoes and get hits. In the attack on Pearl in the PBEM game that I am playing now, 5 of 6 squadrons carried torps... (Hiryu with its poor commander did not) and the results were savage. In addition to multiple torp hits on each BB, I hit 4 CLs and 6 DDs with torps. too.

After that, I did almost exactly what Lowpe describes here. The follow up attacks (and I launched 3) on Pearl sank all but 1 BB and reduced the repair facilities at the port by 60 (that's 60K supply to rebuild).

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 28
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/15/2017 2:13:16 AM   
witpqs


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Joined: 10/4/2004
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The times I have had an IJ opponent skip the PH strike, I liked it. The old BBs are quite useful and not having to repair them is a big plus. A very large and unanticipated benefit was all the PBY types that did not get destroyed. Search is simply huge in this game.

On the other hand, IJ opponents always said that a 2nd day strike on PH was not worth it in terms of damage done versus aircraft lost. I even got serious licks against their ships sometimes.

My advice is hit PH, including the airfields, but only on day one. Then bugger out and watch out for a raid on your fleet oilers.

_____________________________


(in reply to Aurorus)
Post #: 29
RE: Climb Mt. Niitaka - Xargun vs MrKane - 2/15/2017 2:46:08 AM   
Aurorus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


On the other hand, IJ opponents always said that a 2nd day strike on PH was not worth it in terms of damage done versus aircraft lost. I even got serious licks against their ships sometimes.





The flak over Pearl under 10K after day 1 is merciless against your unarmored carrer planes. If you fly Vals above 9K, they will dive bomb and take flak from everything. If you fly them at 9K, generally they will not dive bomb, but level bomb from 9k. My advice, if you do a follow up strike, just use the Kates and make sure you have a lot of fighters escorting. Stay above the worst of the flak... i.e. the mountains of 40mm with their 9K ceiling.

You can just bug out after Day 1, of course. No shame in that. It is a long game, and while you can potentially lose the war at Pearl by losing KB, you are not going to win it there.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 30
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